posted May 23, 2005 11:40 PM            

I find this book to be tough going, but the insights reached upon reflection have been worth it. After I'd read my own chapter of Neptune in the 3rd House, I felt like I'd been run over by a truck, but I was also excited by the new avenues of thought to be explored.....

quote:

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Neptune in the 7th House

When Neptune appears in the 7th house, the dream of Paradise becomes the vision of perfect union, in which the individual can be contained, nourished and unconditionallly loved forever. This vision is not always conscious. Many individuals, in whom the rational functions are strong, remain unaware of such expectations, and will vehemently disclaim any such needs. Nevertheless the pattern enacts itself according to the ancient myth, experienced through projection. The watery bliss of Eden may then appear as the suffocating maw of the big fish, since both are dimensions of Neptune; and the familiar cry may be heard of not wanting to be devoured by a needy and dependent partner. Confusion is an appropriate word to describe the paradoxical feelings Neptune in the 7th reflects in relationship. The confusion springs from the individual’s unconscious quest for redemption through and by others.

With Neptune in the 7th, the search for the redeemer may be literally enacted. Neptune in the 7th can be predisposed to marrying a parental surrogate, morther-father-in-one, who after a time begins to devour like the big fish; then the redeemer appears as a lover who, often creative but wounded by life, needs saving and offers salvation at the same time. The two fish are thus divided, like Asherah and Lotan, and the individual projects both. Equally often, the partner or spouse is a victim. In “saving” such a partner lies the hope of one’s own redemption. Neptune in the 7th may thus play the “strong” partner to a weak mate – the alcoholic, the drug addict, the individual with serious emotional problems – thereby avoiding the reality of own’s own weakness and fragility. But if one encounters someone stronger, then the little child emerges, and the apparent strength collapses, revealing the chaos and vulnerability beneath. Neptune in the 7th is not doomed to disappointing relationships, nor condemned by “karma” to relinquish them altogether. But the individual may evidence a marked reluctance to face the issues involved. The difficulties caused by a 7th house Saturn, Uranus, Pluto or Chiron may also begin with projection; every planet in the 7th house usually does. But once it becomes apparent that a pattern is at work, the individual is usually willing to explore what is really going on. Not so with Neptune, which cannot bear too bright a light.

The individual who seeks redemption in the arms of another may also play the lover, cheerfully breaking up other people’s relationships in the name of “saving” the poor man or woman who is trapped with such a terrible partner. Or he or she may be the deceived spouse. Neptune in the 7th house enjoys triangles. Behind the noble salvation of other lost souls lies a hungry child, who wants nothing less than everything from a partner, yet who may be unwilling to face the enormity of such needs, nor the despair of not having them met. Help may lie in a stronger relationship with Saturn, whose realism can reveal one’s own manipulative ploys as well as providing the self-sufficiency necessary to find Eden somewhere other than in one’s partner. Neptune in the 7th may be a gifted counsellor, or a minister to the needs of others; and this is perhaps a more appropriate vehicle for the expression of the mythic redeemer in human relationship. But there can be no healing, of self or of others, as long as the unconscious infant bedecks mortals in immortal garb.

Neptune in the 7th may be addicted to the pursuit of the unobtainable, for the glamour and elusiveness of what we cannot have promises endless possibilities of salvation. Once we have established a flesh-and-blood relationship, Neptune cannot sustain its idealisations. This dynamic often lies behind the propensity to select the beloved from the ranks of the alread married or the sexually disinclined, or even from the ranks of the priesthood. It may also fuel the self-destructive impulse which impels many people with Neptune in the 7th to eschew all hope of a happy relationship, suffering in an unhappy one because one might earn one’s rewards in some distant future before, or even after, death. The inclination toward self-sacrifice so often displayed by Neptune in the 7th may conceal very murky waters. Ultimately the sacrifice required may not be personal fulfillment, but rather, identification with the redeemer and the redeemed.

With Neptune in the 7th, we need to experience its longings, aspirations and magic through others. Perhaps we also need Neptunian people around us. Attraction to those of an artistic or mystical persuasion may not be the same as attraction to the psychological infant who mirrors our own infantility. As our own internal balance grows, our attractions change, although the archetypal core remains the same. The 7th house is also not limited to the intimacy of a spouse or lover. It is sometimes called the house of the public, because it reflects our entry into the world of others and our ways of interacting with them. Planets placed in any angular house tend to find their expression through events and people. Neptune in the 7th depends upon others to unfold its story. for we require our mirrors to be literal. All of the characters in Neptune’s drama – devouring oceanic mother, divine redeemer, and suffering victim – are usually projected, at one time or another during the course of life. Other people generally belong to one of these three groups, and anything in between tends not to be noticed. Society, too, can be divided according to this triad, for Neptune in the 7th may display strong political inclinations. Neptunian idealisations may be expressed primarily in public life, and may confer not only the ability to sense the needs and sufferings of the collective, but also a remarkable blindness to one’s own aspirations to power.

It is important for those with Neptune in the 7th, who choose to move in such an arena, to be honest about the degree of subjectivity involved in their perceptions of society. The Neptunian leader may easily become the Neptunian victim, torn apart – metaphorically or even physically – by the crowd. An interesting example of this in the modern world is Erich Honecker, the Marxist leader of East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. Honecker’s chart reveals Neptune conjunct the Descendent, three degrees from the cusp. Although technically in the 6th hours, any planet this close to the Descendent will be expressed through the 7th. Initially Honecker saw himself, and was perceived, as the saviour of the East German people. By the time the Wall was dismantled at the end of 1989, he had become the scapegoat of the people, for his methods were identical with those of the fascist powers he had so virulently opposed. His self-blindness is characteristic of the darker side of Neptune; for he became the very thing he hunted, and was the destroyer of that which he sought to save.

Perceiving others through the lens of Neptune’s longing is an ambiguous gift. It can reflect remarkable sensitivity to the pulse of the world “out there”, as well as to those individuals with whom one comes in close contact. Such responsiveness can be expressed in many creative and healing ways. But Neptune’s suffering through others, when placed in the 7th, is largely self-created. It arises from a mixture of idealised fantasies, infantile needs, and the nature of the people whom one calls upon to participate in one’s drama. Disillusionment with others is the natural product of a 7th house Neptune. It is the individual’s capacity to deal with this disillusionment, through sufficient recognition of one’s own and others’ limits, which determines whether or not Neptune in the 7th will create a life of victimisation or of rich and rewarding relationships. Neptune is never content with prosaic interaction. The glory of the theatre must infuse life, for all the world is a stage and Neptune in the 7th is the chief actor. No solution will be found by suppressing Neptune’s longing, for it will merely enter through the back door, and appear in one’s partner or in an ungrateful public who have turned against their idol. Perhaps the secret lies in allowing others to be both mythic and human at the same time.

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posted May 24, 2005 12:18 AM              

I read it, once so far, and have just realized I need to read it about a gazillion more times to fully comprehend its meaning. Neptune confuses me (sorry about the pun!)...that's one reason it fascinates me!

posted May 24, 2005 01:04 AM            

I've done Neptune in III, VI and XII as a request from other people here and the response has been very positive, so I will continue to do it until I run out of houses! They will probably get posted at the private website of another LL denizen for all to enjoy (if that word can be applied to Neptune!).....

Then I'm starting on Saturn (cue spooky music) -- Liz Greene's book A New Look At An Old Devil, though written in the 1970's, is still very relevant and intriguing today.....

You showed an interest, and I think that we have a responsibility to share what we have learned, n'est-ce pas?

posted May 24, 2005 09:41 PM              

Rereading this post kinda made me feel dizzy and a bit nauseus (although it was partially my day). It's hard for me to come to terms with Neptune (and it's aspects) in my chart. I living in my imaginary world, it makes me happy…

Saturn would be a nice reality check

Thank you 'Zala

posted May 24, 2005 09:56 PM            

You're Aqua, right? Have you listed out all your natal positions in another thread somewhere? Dr. Z would like to take a look at history of patient complaining of dizziness and nausea! Yes, a good strong dose of Saturn might be just the right prescription! How about replying here with stats and I'll pull out Liz's Saturn book for ya. I've got Neptune and Saturn dancing 3 degrees to either side of my Sun in III, I think it's an enormously stabilizing position, although I often feel pulled in two opposite directions (and they say Libras can't make decisions!). I still enjoy/suffer from (take your pick!) the Neptunian fog, but with Sun, Merc and Saturn also on the same playfield I'm probably a bit more grounded than someone with a solo Neptune....

posted May 24, 2005 11:45 PM              

Yup Im an Aqua (and still a nauseas one right now)...and if you insist Dr. Z, my vital natal stats can be found in Labors of Love... http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000257.html

Merci

posted May 25, 2005 11:19 AM            

Give me a day or two for Neptune......

How are things going now after your horrid week last week? You're singing this coming weekend, aren'tcha? Dragon-Man sez Saturn is moving into Leo soon and that I should do some Liz Greene Saturn stuff for you people that it's gonna slam, so that's the next project on my list......

posted May 25, 2005 12:02 PM            

I ALSO have Neptune in the 3rd house (like you), but I am not so sure I believe some of the descriptions...like we are prone to having problems in school, we shouldn't pursue the intellectual or scientific majors...LOL...I was a great student (although somewhat social) and I ended up getting my degrees in the Sciences..

BUT..I do see the part about being impressionable to what is around me and what is said. Also, the dreams - the ether communications- that are so hard to explain to others (especially when we were kids).

I have Neptune in Scorp..how about you?

Oh and Thanks for the Neptune in the 7th..Mr. Taurus has that position - it conjuncts my Sun and Venus in Sagittarius - (although my Sun falls just into his 8th house)

~Pidaua

posted May 25, 2005 12:35 PM            

Even now I sometimes see that he needs the drama (he also has his Sun in the 1st house conjuncting his Ascendant). We always seem closer after we "hash" things out- but there is sometimes and air of deception that lingers about. We both do it sometimes (We both have Mars in Pisces - which happens to also rule my 7th house)

In our case- my Neptune also falls into his 7th house- conjuncting his DC - sometimes I worry that he sees me as a bit of a way to salvation (he has said things like "You are the light to my darkness...or that my blunt honesty - almost naivete are traits that he absolutely loves about me).

I also feel that at times he projects onto me (I can be a sponge with Neptune and Mars both in water signs - add jupiter for giggles too). So that when he is feeling needy or hurt, he provokes those feelings to be expressed by me- then after a 12-24 hour period of this intense look into our emotional depths, we come out stronger- refreshed- then again, it can be a mix of his Neptune and my Pluto in the 1st..all this death / rebirth...

I also feel like he pushes me or tries to come off as being deceptive to see if I care enough to confront him- then we go through this cycle of anger - sadness- understanding- reconcilation - love..strength. All of which, I believe and feel, that he NEEDS (At this time we also have the transiting Pluto conjuncting my Sun / IC in the 4th house and leaving the conjunction of his Neptune and just barely out of his 7th house).

The thing is...I can't say that I hate this..at times it wears me out, but I keep feeling there is this deeper lesson - Karmic (As I said in another post Mr. Taurus and I have some major binding Karmic aspects..my pluto (Virgo)conjuncts his moon, my Saturn (Taurus) conjuncts his Sun - His Saturn (cancer) and my moon (aries)..we both complete each other's T-square with the rulers of our charts (His Venus (Cancer) and my Mercury (Capricorn).

~Pidaua

posted May 25, 2005 12:57 PM            

Thank you Zala, like I said.. if you are so inclined, and no rush... really.

Yes, I am singing this weekend. On Saturday ( thank you for remembering) I have practice tonight as a matter of fact.
Beautiful day here.

Yes, Saturn has already started to dance with me. Pos and Neg.... life stuff.

posted May 25, 2005 01:04 PM            

I am wondering how all this well affect Mr. Taurus as well (He is in for some kind of wallop, like you, with Saturn going into Leo - mostly it will affect his Sun and Rising sign - and the transit will take place in his 4th house (LOL...yep looks like he and I will BOTH be having 4th house issues).

posted May 25, 2005 01:52 PM            

quote:

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...like we are prone to having problems in school, we shouldn't pursue the intellectual or scientific majors...LOL...I was a great student

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DD ~ I have Neptune at 23 Libra (with 0 orb sq to Uranus in Cancer, that's me over at the "Hippies" thread!) Sun at 26, Saturn at anaretic 29, and Merc @ 20 Scorp all in III.....

posted May 25, 2005 02:42 PM            

I know how you feel because I am the same way when I start a project - I get overwhelmed once I have put a plan on paper..so then I have to embrace it and let myself go, then jump back into it.