posted June 29, 2005 11:27 PM            

quote:

---

The element of fire is related to the function of the intuition and is often linked with spirit, energy, and the initial source of life and consciousness. This rather exalted conception of fire may be considered too lofty for our more personalised examples of Arien aggression, Leonian pride and autocracy, and Sagittarian irresponsibility. However unsavoury our individual examples may be, all three fire signs tend to possess an innate consciousness of their individuality and often have limitless vitality, self-confidence, and enthusiasm which stems not from any mundane accomplishment but from an intuitive perception of the worth of the self. Earth expresses confidence when it has acquired mastery over matter, and water expresses confidence when it has established meaningful emotional bonds. Air expresses confidence through the exchange and development of ideas. But the fiery temperament needs no further justification than its existence for the innate belief that life is essentially meaningful and that man deserves the best from it.
The sense of inner purpose or meaning, which we tend to call the urge for self-expression without fully understanding what self we are speaking of, underlies the behaviour and outlook of all three fiery signs and houses. Physical man's primary need is food and sustenance, but the symbolism of fire suggests that something must purposefully decide to express as physical man in the first place. It is this "something” or self which the fiery individual knows himself to be; and the needs of the body are to him secondary—as is literally demonstrated in the second house.
Fire is not a difficult element to understand if we consider the concept of a total self which possesses will and purpose and of which the conscious personality is only a fragment. This is both a psychological and an esoteric postulate although psychology politely avoids the use of the word "soul" except in a limited sense. We may see the expression of this fiery self in a more personal and human way through the urge to explore and conquer as it is displayed by Aries, the urge to create and to love as it is displayed by Leo, and the urge to expand and understand as it is displayed by Sagittarius. In each of these signs there is a deep sense of purpose and an innate acceptance of the fact that the ordinary arenas of life—body, feelings, and mind—exist solely for the self-expressive urges of the creative self. All the world is to the fiery trigon indeed a stage to be explored, acted upon, understood, and loved, and, when necessary, destroyed so that new forms may be built. For there is value only in the meaning, and it is the meaning which is always sought in every experience.
Naturally there is a side to this energy which is not appealing to other kinds of temperaments, particularly the earthy temperament which expresses great accuracy of observation and appreciation of form but is often unable to find the meaning for the form. Fire may appear to be egotistical and self-aggrandising, and fiery individuals often are. This kind of man may intuitively know that he is a god, but he is inclined to forget that everybody else is as well. Most of the shortcomings of this type of temperament stem from the man's insensitivity to the finer details of life, and the feelings of other people are frequently part of these finer details. For this reason Jung places intuition and sensation at opposite ends of the axis of perception for one relates to the purpose of a thing or an experience and the other relates to the appearance of that thing or experience. Fire perpetually seeks purpose and generally finds it although he often lacks appreciation of the myriad of beautiful forms in which the purpose is couched. He is naturally first concerned with the purpose of his own life.
Saturn in the fiery signs or houses tends to suggest a barrier between the conscious personality and the intuitive perception of the self as it ordinarily is experienced by fire. This often precipitates a loss of the sense of one's innate purpose and significance in the broader context of life. Saturn in fire may appear to produce problems which are more philosophical than real in nature, but it should be remembered that Saturn in any element brings out the importance of understanding and experiencing the meaning and sphere of that element. To the person with Saturn in a fiery sign or house, the consciousness of the self is a tremendously important issue although he may not verbalise his need in such terminology. Often compulsive self-centredness is a by-product of this frustration of and search for meaning and purpose. But it is not that there is too much ego in the colloquial sense of this term. The individual is not selfish in the way that we popularly refer in our tirades to those people who do not do what we want. There is in fact too little Ego, and this loss of contact with the centre of the psyche tends to rob the individual of his confidence in life. He will often mask this loss with an exaggerated sense of his own importance for he has nothing else. Saturn is in his fall in Aries and in detriment in Leo for he does not initially get on well with the element of fire.
It is easy enough to see Saturn in the role of the Lord of Karma, but to perceive him merely as an instrument of suffering and the payment of debts is only a possible part of the picture. If he is seen as a motive, leading to a process which results in growth, then it is easier to comprehend the reason for his apparent restrictions in any area of life. The sense of despair and feeling of insignificance which often accompanies Saturn's placement in fire may be viewed as bad karma or the penalty for too many lives of self-aggrandisement or power, but this interpretation is not of much use for the person who experiences the crushing feeling of purposelessness. If it is instead seen as a challenge, where,the individual can through effort and the development of the intuitive faculty begin to apprehend his true nature and his true role in relation to the group and to life in general, accompanied by the destruction or elimination of those values which are no longer of use or which are based on illusion, then he can make use of his opportunity and develop that aspect of his temperament which, symbolically, will yield the alchemical gold.
The Sun is exalted in the sign of Saturn's fall for the conscious personality is strengthened by its contact with the larger self. The Sun is in dignity in the sign of Saturn's detriment, and Saturn is exalted in the sign of the Sun's fall. These two opponents, who sometimes take the guise of God and the Devil, perpetually circle each other about the ring whether they are in actual aspect on the birth chart or not. They are two faces of the same basic principle, and in the individual's psychology they are related to the conscious personality and the shadow or unconscious personality. The Sun's face looks outward to the world while Saturn's two faces look both toward the Sun and downward toward the darkness of the collective unconscious of the race. Saturn placed in the fiery signs or houses suggests another facet of this perpetual conflict which is not really a conflict, for Mars and Jupiter, the two fiery planets, are in the end more specialised suns.
Saturn's effects in the fiery signs and houses may aptly be described as "spiritual constipation" which is observable in ordinary life as a lack of spontanaeity and self-expression, lack of vitality and inner confidence, and a feeling of purposelessness. The three basic qualities of will or purpose, love, and intelligence which are esoterically considered as the attributes of deity may also be considered basic attributes of man's psyche. Jung called the factor of love Eros and the factor of intelligent activity Logos; and he believed that the will was a third factor which could be utilised to direct the energies of the other two. We have here a rough psychological analogy to the Trinity, both Christian and Hindu, which latter expresses these same attributes as Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. In Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius we see yet another symbolic correlation to these three basic kinds of energy for these three fiery signs are the simplest representations of the astrological qualities. It may then be suggested that Saturn in Aries or the first house is connected with the understanding and development of the will or sense of purposeful activity; Saturn in Leo or the fifth house is connected with the understanding and development of creativity or sense of purposeful love; and Saturn in Sagittarius or the ninth house is connected with the understanding and development of intuitive perception and wisdom. These may appear to be abstruse definitions of Saturn in fire, but they are a fitting introduction to a symbol which suggests the opportunity for the development of an intuitive understanding of the purpose of one's life.

Saturn in Leo and/or the fifth house
Under the general umbrella of the fifth house are usually included pleasures and amusements, love affairs, children, creativity and self-expression, and speculation and investments. This is a rather large mouthful for one mundane house. As this house is the reflection of the Sun, the symbol for the conscious ego, it might be easier to approach it as the expression of the individual's "selfness", those areas where he can be uniquely and wholly himself, where he can permeate his feelings, desires, ideas, and activities with his own essence, and where he is completely unimpeded and uncoloured by the necessity for compromise. This is the house of the individual identity, and through the activities of the fifth house one begins to apprehend, through creative self-expression, the meaning of his own identity. Leo and the fifth house have a great deal to do with the recognition of the self both by others and by the individual himself. We interpret it also as the house of love, but it might more aptly be called the house of romance because this also is an area where the individual may express—or project—his own identity without interference, and through the experience of love of this kind he may get a glimpse of his own inner centre. Love in all its meanings is perhaps as much an archetype as is the archetype of the Self, and neither one is discernible on the birth chart; only the ways in which they are likely to be approached and expressed are evident, and they are both connected with the fifth house.
This house, like the first and the ninth, is also connected with the faculty of the intuition and with the individual's intuitive perception of the purpose and completeness of his total psyche. Expressing through Aries, the individual intuits purpose through his interaction with the environment; expressing through Leo, he intuits his wholeness through reflecting upon himself as he appears in his own creations. This kind of reflection can lead, in the end, to the experience of the "I" as a complete and unique idea, but this experience is not approached through the intellect. Otherwise it becomes a meaningless set of concepts which only serve to throw up more barriers between the individual and his experience of himself. Through an act of creative expression he may intuitively catch himself being himself, and the importance of this psychological experience should not be underestimated. It is one of the motives behind creativity.
It is usual to find the Leonian personality described as egotistical and self-centred. But it might be more correct to say that rather than being self-centred, he is seeking the self at the centre, and in consequence everything that he does is of dramatic importance to him because somewhere in all of it he senses the possibility of the direct encounter, the direct experience. Rather than criticising him for his tendency to exaggerate his own importance, it is perhaps more helpful to realise that no individual can be of any value to himself or to others until he first discovers who and what that self is. Through the fifth house the individual begins to glimpse himself through those expressions which contain within them a piece of his own unique
identity. This is not necessarily limited to creativity in the artistic sense although this is perhaps a more direct form of self-expression. Every individual has some area of life where he is seeking to understand his own significance through completely unimpeded self-expression whether this is in an artistic field, an intellectual one, an emotional one, or the creation of a living child.
From this it may be inferred that the conventional attitude toward the bearing of children is sometimes in need of some further reflection. Often the first half of the creative process is accomplished—the child is born—but the second half, the half in which the education and self-recognition of the creator begins, is frequently neglected because this act requires humility of a kind which is usually absent from the parent-child relationship. Children are, in our society, very much a means of living out vicariously those qualities and expressions which are unconscious or have not been permitted to unfold in the life of the parent. Rather than helping to provide a means of self-realisation, they are seen as empty vessels which can be moulded, shaped, and filled with any content we choose. An act of creativity can always lead to greater self-awareness when we consider who it is that is doing the creating, but it always involves a gamble because of the possibility of pride distorting the perception. In any painting or piece of music, there is a fragment of the consciousness of the creator; and in the end it is for the greater consciousness of his psyche that he creates, not for his audience, although his audience may be a part of the alchemical transformation by which he achieves divinity. This may seem abstruse, but we are fond of tossing about concepts such as God's love for his children and the artist's quest for immortality without having the vaguest idea what we are talking about. It is worth some meditation upon the idea of the creative act, and its psychic significance, in order to get fuller understanding of the meaning of Saturn in the fifth house.
When Saturn is in Leo or in the fifth house, there is a temporary barrier between the person and his self-realisation, composed primarily of those shadowy attributes which he will not permit into consciousness. The creative flow is often blocked, or if it is not blocked, then the experience of self-realisation which is the natural result may be blocked. The perfect circle of outpouring and inner transformation is interrupted, and the man often pours his energy out and thinks that he receives nothing back because his own sense of inadequacy prevents him from realising that it has nothing to do with the audience. This applies not only to creative expression but to romantic love as well. Usually the person with a fifth house Saturn cannot easily find himself among his creations because he has had a minimum of recognition from anyone else. This is the classic indication of the unloved child, the child who may be ignored or treated as merely an extension of his parents, where his own identity and significance has somehow been swallowed up in the trappings of what passes for parent-child love. Children with Saturn in the fifth house are often loved in the sense that their parents love the idea of the child, but they are rarely loved for the unique quality of "selfness" which is at the base of the individuality. Later in life, because these children have never experienced the recognition of self by anybody else, they are hard-pressed to recognise it themselves and often find it difficult to make contact with their own inner significance. The child with Saturn in Leo or in the fifth house must often pay the later price of intense feelings of inadequacy and insignificance no matter how many gifts or abilities he may possess.
This placement of Saturn often concurs with a reluctance or inability to have children, or the children may bring burdens, responsibilities, or pain. This is the traditional interpretation of a fifth house Saturn. He may deny himself love in the sense that, not loving himself or being able to understand his own value, he is afraid that no one else will find him lovable either. Caught in his own feelings of inferiority, he may be jealous and resentful of others, ensuring the fact of his rejection by them. There is often a stiffness and lack of spontaneity about Saturn in the fifth house; one has the feeling that the individual is always watching himself watching himself and is rarely able to relax. He strains and pushes in the hope, unconsciously, of getting some glimpse of what he truly is mirrored in the loving eyes of others, but he generally consistently fails when he attempts it in this way. Because he pushes so hard, he often alienates those who otherwise might have helped him. His disappointments may come through many channels, but behind the heartbreak which is often associated with this position lies the individual's inability to love himself, to recognise his own significance, and to find an inner centre which can give his life stability and meaning.
Saturn in the fifth house has a reputation for being cold and heartless, but this kind of face is characteristic of Saturn and should not be taken literally. The heart of stone is apparent in many people who are concerned with protecting their own vulnerability with a veneer of callousness. Usually beneath this veneer is a small child who cannot understand his own importance. There is often an intense selfishness exhibited by Saturn in the fifth house and a desperate need to feel important, admired, envied, and popular. Envy is most typical of this position for the individual who cannot find his own centre is often deeply resentful of what he thinks are the meaningful lives of others. To the individual with a fifth house Saturn, everyone else's grass often seems greener. Usually he is most envious of those who seem to attract love, friendship, and affection without having to make the strenuous effort at skill, superiority, and dazzle which is typical of the fifth house Saturn. No one seeks popularity as assiduously as he does, whether this is conscious or not, and no one is so crushed and heartbroken when he is not accepted. Saturn is awkward in the Sun's sign, and the challenge offered to the person with this placement is a difficult one for he needs to find his inner centre and identify with that rather than the trappings with which he usually surrounds himself. Without these trappings the person usually feels naked and vulnerable. The opportunity offered, however, is an important one, for if he succeeds in finding this centre and manages to shift the focus of his personality from the ego to this more meaningful self, he can begin to recapture the naive joy which is apparent only in a child, the joy which comes from an innate trust in life and in the existence of love in the universe. Having once found the secret of his own identity, he can never lose it again, and that natural integrity and brightness which is one of the most endearing of Leonian qualities becomes his permanent expression. He is no longer dependent on whether others recognise him or not for he has at last recognised himself. This experience of contacting the self always seems to evoke the same response in those people who have experienced it: they seem to recapture some of the spontaneous joy, vitality, and innate honesty of the heroes of folklore and fairytale, regardless of the inhibiting aspects of their outer lives. This joy is not unconscious however, for the process is a conscious one and is not a regression. Somehow the duality of conscious sophistication, or fine discrimination, and unconscious integrity, or the sense of trust, are fused within the personality. This is a great challenge and an important opportunity and if taken, certainly balances the pain and loneliness which are usually the initial gifts of Saturn in the fifth house.
There is often an interesting blend of inflation and an intense and often crippling shyness apparent with Saturn in the fifth house. The individual both overrates and underrates himself but rarely perceives himself clearly; consequently, he cannot see others clearly because he is always projecting his own evaluations onto them and usually does badly in affairs of the heart because of this. He often cannot express overt affection easily yet at the same time cannot bear to be ignored. Loyalty and honour may become of exaggerated importance to him for he often tries to crystallise and solidify the love of others through emphasis on the forms and codes of behaviour which love sometimes takes as its outer expression. It is not so much love in the affectional sense as recognition that he seeks, and it is easy to see why this placement is often associated with those in the entertainment professions. Leo himself does not need this feedback from others; he simply is, and that is enough. Saturn in Leo cannot see the "I" and must seek it in the applause of the crowd.
With this placement of Saturn the psyche seems to be directed toward a realisation of itself, toward a process of individuation as Jung calls it, and will often not permit the conscious personality to find any solace in the usual activities which supply an identity for most people. Thus children, who often provide a sense of purpose and significance to their parents, are a disappointment, or there is no possibility of having them. Romantic love rarely turns out to be the ideal which is expected because the eyes of the lover somehow never reflect that missing flash which will convince the person of his own value. Creative expression never quite seems fulfilling and usually misses the mark. The individual usually is driven, in the end, to seek himself within himself because no other means are left available to him. It is he himself who has set it up in this way, but to recognise the underlying purpose behind these disappointments is the beginning of wisdom and the final taking of the opportunity.
There may be as much overcompensation here as with any other Saturnian placement. Many people with Saturn in the fifth house work very hard at never taking life seriously although no one is more sensitive, touchy, and serious in matters of affection than the fifth house Saturn. His fears of rejection and insignificance usually lead him to lace the idea of love heavily with concepts such as loyalty, duty, fidelity, and responsibility although these may be unconscious lacings. He needs structures so that he may be guaranteed a sufficient amount of enduring love. Unfortunately no matter how many structures he erects, he usually still cannot trust, and the disguise of frivolity rarely deceives anyone after a while although he may continue to deceive himself. The heaviness and needfulness of this placement usually shows through, and because of this the person is often deeply hurt.
If the person does not work with his fifth house Saturn, this is a rather unhappy position; any coupling of Saturn and the Sun carries weight with it, whether this coupling occurs by sign, aspect, or house interchange. All these contacts are connected with the discovery of the self, and this is painful because it involves the tearing away of the veil. We are taught in early childhood that we are many things—our feelings, or beliefs, or bank accounts, or children, or talents, or loved ones—anything and everything except ourselves. The person with Saturn in the fifth house often demands so much from others that he is left lonely and heartbroken. He is capable of much love and devotion but does not dare to express it without asking for a guarantee back; only when he recognises this unconscious process of barter can he begin to free himself of it. We are familiar with the exaggerated display of megalomania which was expressed by Hitler and which was in part connected with his prominent Saturn in Leo at the midheaven of the birth chart. What is often not recognised is that the ordinary man with Saturn in Leo or in the fifth house, who has no aspirations to conquer the world, may nevertheless have a small share of this desperate need for importance and recognition, coupled with an acute shyness which leads him to wait in the wings when what he wants most is to be at the centre of the stage with all eyes focussed, adoring, upon him. Failing this, he may become a petty tyrant in the home, a hypochondriac, a domestic dictator.
The person with Saturn in the fifth house is sometimes not easy to love because he is like a jug with no bottom and absorbs affection and attention endlessly without being satisfied; however, if he begins to understand that his path is inward toward the self, he may begin to see what kind of opportunity is offered to him. For the individual whose heart has been unlocked, every moment contains joy and significance, and although this may sound like the classic mystic's vision, it is also an empiric psychological fact and may be precipitated by certain psychological techniques, coupled with insight and patience. Having once seen this vision the individual needs nothing else to complete himself for the self is whole. We may observe this motif in many myths and fairytales for this is the treasure hard to obtain, the jewel guarded by the dragon or hidden in the beautiful princess' ring. It is the finding of this jewel which seems to be the special task of the person with Saturn in Leo or in the fifth house for nothing else will suffice.

---

posted June 30, 2005 01:26 AM              

After that loooong read....I don't know what to say ...I hope I get over myself

posted June 30, 2005 03:52 AM              

You know a line here reminded me of a T.S. Eliot poem, The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, a great poem!

LET us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question …
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

The yellow fog that rubs its back upon the window-panes,
The yellow smoke that rubs its muzzle on the window-panes
Licked its tongue into the corners of the evening,
Lingered upon the pools that stand in drains,
Let fall upon its back the soot that falls from chimneys,
Slipped by the terrace, made a sudden leap,
And seeing that it was a soft October night,
Curled once about the house, and fell asleep.

And indeed there will be time
For the yellow smoke that slides along the street,
Rubbing its back upon the window-panes;
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet;
There will be time to murder and create,
And time for all the works and days of hands
That lift and drop a question on your plate;
Time for you and time for me,
And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
And for a hundred visions and revisions,
Before the taking of a toast and tea.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

And indeed there will be time
To wonder, “Do I dare?” and, “Do I dare?”
Time to turn back and descend the stair,
With a bald spot in the middle of my hair—
[They will say: “How his hair is growing thin!”]
My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin—
[They will say: “But how his arms and legs are thin!”]
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

For I have known them all already, known them all:—
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?

And I have known the arms already, known them all—
Arms that are braceleted and white and bare
[But in the lamplight, downed with light brown hair!]
It is perfume from a dress
That makes me so digress?
Arms that lie along a table, or wrap about a shawl.
And should I then presume?
And how should I begin?
. . . . .
Shall I say, I have gone at dusk through narrow streets
And watched the smoke that rises from the pipes
Of lonely men in shirt-sleeves, leaning out of windows?…

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.
. . . . .
And the afternoon, the evening, sleeps so peacefully!
Smoothed by long fingers,
Asleep … tired … or it malingers,
Stretched on the floor, here beside you and me.
Should I, after tea and cakes and ices,
Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis?
But though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed,
Though I have seen my head [grown slightly bald] brought in upon a platter,
I am no prophet—and here’s no great matter;
I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.

And would it have been worth it, after all,
After the cups, the marmalade, the tea,
Among the porcelain, among some talk of you and me,
Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,
To say: “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”—
If one, settling a pillow by her head,
Should say: “That is not what I meant at all.
That is not it, at all.”

And would it have been worth it, after all,
Would it have been worth while,
After the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets,
After the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor—
And this, and so much more?—
It is impossible to say just what I mean!
But as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:
Would it have been worth while
If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
And turning toward the window, should say:
“That is not it at all,
That is not what I meant, at all.”
. . . . .

posted June 30, 2005 10:34 AM              

For me, I have 5th house placement of Saturn at 29 degrees (emphasized degree) in Pisces. Square my Gem Sun but multiple softer/easier aspects with Moon, Merc, Venus

Sections in this chapter are quite true...some I fear to be true. What do I fear? Well...not having children for one. I worry that this may come to pass however have many friends with Saturn in 5th who hvae had plenty of children with little problems...Pisces being a fruitful sign does give me hope.

The description of the parental 'handling' of a 5th Saturn is right on target...

QUOTE:
"This is the classic indication of the unloved child, the child who may be ignored or treated as merely an extension of his parents, where his own identity and significance has somehow been swallowed up in the trappings of what passes for parent-child love. Children with Saturn in the fifth house are often loved in the sense that their parents love the idea of the child, but they are rarely loved for the unique quality of "selfness" which is at the base of the individuality. Later in life, because these children have never experienced the recognition of self by anybody else, they are hard-pressed to recognise it themselves and often find it difficult to make contact with their own inner significance."

This rings very true for me. It has been a huge struggle to gain recognition from within and actually 'believe' my own significance...having been brought up to often be told and treated as insignificant-despite my over-the top achievements. It brought out a drive to succeed, even at a young age to be the best...try my hardest...and win. Win...with the hope that my parents would 'recognize' how special I was. Regardless of all of my accolades, beginning at an extremely young age, the recognition never came from them. A constant squelching of Me. It feels like a lack of appreciation on ANY level....

Ahhhhh...now recognition is also key. I liken it more to 'appreciation and acknowledgment' but it essentially is the same. I have to be careful of my own expectations of others when I give or do something for them. If it is not recognized as being special or that an 'effort' was made for them by me, I feel hurt. So I now give to give becuase it is part of me and have relaxed on my need for recognition.

I have close friends (Sat 5th) who have not evolved past the following section...

QUOTE:
"There is often an intense selfishness exhibited by Saturn in the fifth house and a desperate need to feel important, admired, envied, and popular. Envy is most typical of this position for the individual who cannot find his own centre is often deeply resentful of what he thinks are the meaningful lives of others. To the individual with a fifth house Saturn, everyone else's grass often seems greener. Usually he is most envious of those who seem to attract love, friendship, and affection without having to make the strenuous effort at skill, superiority, and dazzle which is typical of the fifth house Saturn."

One of my longest time best friends (25 yr plus) has a huge problem with this. She asks me how things come so easily to me and also becomes very envious of my deep and intimate connections with others. She doesn't understand and remains unconnected on deeper levels...unable to evolve in this area.

Lucky for me in some respects, of my two water Grand Trines, one is attached to Saturn so I think it has given me a path made easier over time...the ability to understand at deeper levels what needed to be overcome with the more difficult aspects of Saturn in 5th.

Enough of a reply for you 'Zala??

Have a lovely day....

posted June 30, 2005 06:20 PM              

And about the unloved child...I know my parents loved me, although they never said or expressed anything along those lines, and regularly made me feel low and not worthy of anything. I can still remember my father saying he doesn't want to see my disgusting face. That wasn't even the worst of it. Well how do I know they love me...well they brought me into this world how could they not...they provided me with the basic necessaties food, clothes, a roof over my head. Both my parents, especially my father loved the idea of me being capable of great achievements...those are the only times I can recall hearing any good words. Anyways I think there was some dark or black magic or something evil involved in all of this...I could feel it

What scares me is how I'll treat my own kids if I do end up having them. I love kids, and I've been involved with them through all kinds of work, oldest of six, and I'm a teacher, but still once I have my own I don't know how I'll handle it. I spent a good chunk of my childhood/teens looking after my siblings because my mother was basically dead to me, and father spent most of his energies with work outside the house and didn't know what to do with us when he got home in the evenings...Soo I took on my parent's job...I became very controlling in trying to run their lives...only because that's the role a parent is supposed to play...to mold them so that they are perfect...or so I thought.

posted June 30, 2005 08:10 PM            

Wonderful poem! I hope the mermaids sing to you.....

GemStar ~

Again you floor me with your insights and your eloquence!

DayDreamer ~

The fact that you are concerned about how you might treat your future children just proves that you have nothing to worry about! It's the people who DON'T consider what they are doing to their precious offspring that are causing wounds that take decades to heal, if ever.....

posted June 30, 2005 08:30 PM              

DayDreamer-I too, being the oldest, was placed in a position at a very young age of having the responsibility of my mother's 'job'. She stayed in her room for many years after my parent's divorce, coming out only to write down my duty list daily. Too much fell on my shoulders...making difficult dynamics with younger siblings-even more difficult. (Oldest vs the rest-3 brothers...power struggles with caregiver, yet also oldest sister).

Because I believe you can evolve past the weaknesses innately born to us, I am sure you can strive to create any life you choose...nearly.

The difficult aspects you wrote of will most definitely make the path arduous for you. Be patient and work on each one as it applies to you and your thoughts. Be honest in reconciling the ways of life/thinking you want to change.

I personally feel that if you can have patience with other children, you certainly will find patience even more so with your own one day. You KNOW what it felt like growing up...and you will offer your children a much better love as a parent!

Remember to 'work' with your Saturn and grow through the necessary changes-all the while harnessing the power that Saturn does provide us as well!!

Hugs-

GemStar

posted June 30, 2005 08:41 PM              

This topic, Saturn 5th house, is the intial reason I came to LL two years ago, and it's something I feel I will have to work on, as with its hard aspects, for the rest of my life. Yet there is relief in knowing the source of the problem...so much more easier to 'work' with.

posted June 30, 2005 08:46 PM              

Additional note...my two water Grand Trines both connect with Saturn...no wonder the energy moves a bit easier for me! Without that help, it would be a pain to be weighed down by this placement....

Now I can see why my other friend has such a hard time...her selfishness plus her Leo Sun is a bit overwhelming at times...always wanting what she doesn't have...envious of small things even...envious of my ability to 'see' things differently. Everyone has the opportunity to grow beyond their basic Being....it is simply a choice. Just that...a Choice made by You!!

Thanks again to DayDreamer (DD) for your openness...I can totally relate and think you can use astrology to ease up on yourself...(another pressure we place on ourselves needlessly)!!

DD-You obviously enjoy children, having worked with them...and probably will be a FANTASTIC mother when the timing is right for you! Have Faith...I know that I do...even if the outcome is unknown at the moment...just have Faith my Friend!!

Hugs(Again):

posted June 30, 2005 09:08 PM            

The Saturn stuff really comes in two parts: By the house and by the sign. What sign is it in?

posted July 01, 2005 02:12 PM              

I checked his chart(abusive behavior with ex-girlfriends), and you are correct:

Saturn (cancer) 5th house
sun square saturn
moon square saturn
jupiter square saturn
saturn square pluto

Thanks,
Key