posted July 01, 2005 04:47 PM            

Here you are -- interps for Saturn in Scorpio and the 9th house. The deepest understanding lies in the synthesis of all three of these chpaters, plus the one I put up for Saturn in Leo/5th, as it contains the Intro to Saturn in the Fiery Houses.....

Therefore, here is Liz Greene, from "Saturn - A New Look At An Old Devil". I'll post in three parts, this is the intro:

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Saturn In the watery signs and houses
A traditional reading of Saturn in the signs and houses may be found in a number of textbooks. Some are more psychological in their orientation, but the majority are concerned with his limiting and delaying influence upon the material plane or the world of events. This is certainly a valid method of interpretation as he unquestionably coincides with hindrances and the frustration of the even flow of material and emotional comfort in life. An analysis of Saturn's effects by aspect is also available from many sources, and this area also has been well documented through observation, experience, and tradition. The form side of Saturn's expression has in fact been most adequately covered and will continue to be so as further research is done in the areas of midpoints, harmonics, and medical astrology; however, it is the inner meaning which here concerns us.
No interpretation of Saturn by sign, house, or aspect can be complete, of course, since it is necessary to synthesise these elements and align them with the combination of Sun, Moon, and Ascendant first of all, corresponding with the individual's conscious expression, his unconscious or instinctual reactions, and his behavioural patterns. These isolated factors in combination with Saturn become the spinal column of the natal chart from the point of view of character. They will in a very concise manner shed light on what the individual wants (the Sun), what he needs (the Moon), the style in which he goes about getting these things (the Ascendant), and the thing within the man which causes him either to fail or to be dissatisfied once he has achieved his desire (Saturn). This is, of course, grossly simplified, and entire volumes could be filled on all the known meanings of the Moon alone; however, from this relationship of four factors—and every trinity must in the end be integrated by a fourth factor, a psychological as well as an esoteric law—we may gain insight into the meat of the individual struggle toward greater consciousness indicated on every birth chart. There is no chart which does not contain Saturn, however dignified and admirably aspected he may be, and there is no life without struggle.
We are taught in esoteric doctrine that the physical plane is the plane of effects, the last and densest of a progressively more subtle series of states of consciousness. Many people conceive of these planes as having a location spatially, but they have never been described in this way: the planes refer to states of being, or of awareness, rather than of place, and all coexist simultaneously at the same time and all the time, in all planes, and at the same point. This is a difficult concept for the rational and one-pointed intellect to grasp as it contains a paradox and must be perceived through the intuition which is capable of reconciling the opposing ideas inherent in a paradox and seeing them as one unit. This concept of the planes does not contradict the findings of psychology although the terminology used by both ways of thought is different. The man who is following the devotional path will find the language of the esoteric teachings comfortable with its references to soul, to spirit, to illumination. The man who is following the path of mental development may find it more acceptable to think in terms of conscious and unconscious, of repressions and peak experiences, and of the total integrated self rather than the Monad. It does not matter particularly which set of terms is used to understand the development of man. The worlds of the body, the feeling nature, the mind, and the intuition are essentially the same as the physical, astral, mental, and spiritual planes.
No event or mundane circumstance can occur without having first been set in motion by an idea, charged with emotion, and then manifested as an action. Beyond these three stages of an experience lies the meaning of the experience in relation to the whole, which it is the function of the intuition to perceive. The world of feeling lies directly behind the world of events, and it is this world with which the watery signs and houses are concerned. The astral plane symbolises the "wish life" or feeling nature of humanity, and the astral body—or feeling nature—of an individual man is often the world of causes for everything which happens to him in external life. He is, however, largely unaware of the potency of this feeling nature, particularly at the present juncture where emphasis is placed on external behaviour rather than on the quality of desire. As long as something is not "done", the individual will convince himself that hehas no desire to do it; consequently, the power of the feelings increases because they are forced underground, into the realm of the unconscious. From this subterranean position the feelings will force a man to action or attract certain kinds of illnesses or behavioural patterns which he does not understand, and which may hurt him, and which appear to be coming from somewhere else. Psychic energy, like physical energy, cannot be destroyed; in fact they are the same, both kinds of energy, and will merely follow a different channel of expression if the usual one is blocked. Blockage on the level of the feeling nature is symbolised by Saturn in a watery sign or house, and true to form the psychic energy which would ordinarily seek release through expression of feeling must take another channel of expression—frequently through the physical body or through certain kinds of events.
The concept of different planes or states of consciousness
which are all part of one life, but which may not be clear or known to
the conscious mind, is most helpful in understanding the kind of
responsibility which Saturn requires. As the majority of people are
polarised in their feeling nature and are motivated by desire, it is
particularly important to understand this principle if any sense is to
be made of a watery Saturn. It is useless, of course, to tell the average
man, come for an astrological consultation, that his pain is, finally
and ultimately, part of the growth and evolution of a larger life of
which he is a part; it does not help him to overcome his personal
problem in terms that he can understand. Nor is it likely that he will
be interested in the fact that the soul of the earth itself is preparing for
initiation into a higher sphere of consciousness and that his personal
struggle is intimately connected with this larger struggle. He will
simply want to know why his wife left him, or why he has arthritis, or
why his business has collapsed. If he can understand, however, that
there is more to him than the small and feeble spark of his conscious
awareness and that in coming to terms with that in him which seeks
expression but which he has blocked through fear, he may be able to
accept his experiences as a positive and necessary phase of growth
and prevent their future repetition, he can acquire a sense of meaning
and purpose in his life. He may even find that his wife comes back.
There is an aspect to Saturn which is given insufficient
attention yet which holds much of the key to his meaning. This is his
penchant for disguise, beautifully symbolised by the Egyptian myth
of Osiris who, in flight from the wrath of Set, first changed himselfinto a sea-serpent and then into a crocodile—the original bestial symbol of the sign—to avoid detection. We may see the remnants of this disguise in the mountain goat who has a sea creature's hind quarters. A goat he may be, and his natural habitat may be the barren slopes and crags of the highest mountains, but when necessary, he can swim in the water of the emotional world and can effectively disguise himself in the face of necessity as some other sort of creature. There are many other references to this deliberate duality which is unlike the natural instinctive duality or flexibility of the mutable signs. One is the Roman god Janus, god of gateways, for whom the predominantly Capricornian month of January is named and who was possessed of the remarkable attribute of two heads—so that he could look backwards and forwards, ostensibly, guarding where one has been as well as where one is going, but also because he was, figuratively as well as literally, two-faced.
There is also no sign other than Capricorn which is represented by two distinct glyphs, drawn in totally different ways. This may seem like a small point, but those acquainted with either the esoteric realm or the realm of psychology in its deeper aspects will recognise the fact that there are no coincidences.
We are familiar enough with that innate trait of the strongly Capricornian individual to justify the means by the end and to accept willingly the outward trappings of submission for a period of time if these will eventually help him to earn the fruits of his ambitious. Yet Capricorn is not ordinarily considered a deceptive sign, in the sense that the Piscean in his vague elusiveness is deceptive, or the Geminian in his tendency to work his way into an intellectual corner and trick his way out again, or even the Scorpian who cloaks his essential emotional vulnerability and sensitivity with a barrage of false clues. It would pay to look twice at our hard-working, self-disciplined mountain goat for no one overcompensates as readily as he. We have many signs and planets which change colour like chameleons: all of the mutables, also Cancer, the Moon, Neptune, Mercury. But all these are instinctually changeable and fluctuate because it is their nature to do so whether the circumstances require it or not. Only Saturn calculates his defense, in the same manner as a competent solicitor, both to protect himself from the attack of the environment and to protect himself from the conscious discovery of the individual himself. Yet it is the individual who initiates the protection in both cases.
It is the free will of the individual, contingent upon the degree of his self-knowledge, that decides whether Saturn will be lead or gold or any of the intermediate states. His position at birth may be read in either of two ways, or both simultaneously, and his contact with other planets may bring out two apparently contradictory modes of expression at the same time. Freud termed this state ambivalent emotion; he was the first to postulate the idea that we may both love and hate someone at the same time and one does not negate the other. Things are never as they appear with Saturn; and whenever there is light, there is shadow. The understanding of his innate duality, and the necessity and value of this duality, alleviates much of the pain of the struggle.
Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces and their corresponding houses—the fourth, eighth, and twelfth—are directly concerned with emotion and with motivations which lie below the surface of consciousness. Saturn in any of these signs or houses is extremely elusive because the average individual is rarely aware of the unconscious emotional frustration which lies behind his actions; he only knows that he is isolated and emotionally vulnerable, if he knows even that much. Saturn in these signs and houses is most typical of the kind of pain on the feeling level which finds its way to the therapist's couch, for often an objective viewpoint is needed to help guide the man through the mazes of his own feeling nature.

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posted July 01, 2005 04:50 PM            

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Saturn in Scorpio and the eighth house
The symbolic progression of man's evolution from Aries to Pisces has been described in many sources. There is a similar progression within the three signs belonging to one element, and here the progression represents the stages of development in that particular sphere of consciousness. The first sign or house belonging to that element is generally the clearest and most direct in meaning and relates to the development of the individual personality and its integration. The second sign of that element denotes a point of crisis for here the individual must take his own experience and integrate it into the group of which he is a part. This is rarely done without struggle, for this too is an expansion of consciousness from the personal to the universal. The third and last sign or house refers to the larger unit of the group and infers the final purpose of the particular level of consciousness symbolised by that element.
The watery signs and houses do not contradict this. In the fourth house a man is first subjected as an isolated unit to emotional forces and pressures from the environment which shape his future growth as a personality. He has the opportunity of building a base within himself so that the projection into circumstance is withdrawn and inner security on the feeling level becomes a permanent possession of his character. In the eighth house, the man must take his feeling nature as a channel of expression and contact and begin to function in personal relationships with others. The flow of feeling is now between him and another. Finally, in the twelfth house he has the opportunity of taking the wisdom he has acquired from his experiences and offering it to the group in service for the group development. He is no longer an isolated unit but part of a larger evolving life. This is a helpful way of viewing things which is useful to remember in considering Saturn in the eighth house for this house is probably the most misunderstood and maligned of all the houses in the horoscope.
This house is primarily described as either the house of physical death—which suggests that it has no value or activity outside that brief moment when we take leave of the physical sheath—or as "money received from others", a description which is an insult to the complexity and power of the sign and planet associated with the house. Both interpretations are valid as far as they go, but they do not help in an understanding of Saturn placed in the eighth beyond the reading of a death in old age and the denial of inheritance; and both of these readings are frequently mistaken. The interchange of finances between two people in partnership may be one of the by-products of the house, but it is only when the meaning of money as a symbol of emotional values is understood that the more complex meaning of "money received from others" becomes clear. Death itself does indeed come under this house, but there are many kinds of death, and most of them are not physical; and every death is followed inevitably by a rebirth because it is only the form, and not the life which inherits the form, that dies.
As a watery house, the eighth deals primarily with emotional exchange. As opposite from the second house, that which has physical value and meaning and which constitutes stability and self-sustenance becomes that which has emotional value and which constitutes stability of feeling. It is in the eighth sign, Scorpio, that we may find a clue to the significance of this house in matters of sex, emotional crises, and the death and rebirth of the instincts as purified desire.
This is primarily a house of crisis and refers to those points in life where the emotional ties to others force a man to the realisation of some vital area of his own feeling nature which must be recognised, examined, and purified. Here money becomes a symbol of emotional dependence or freedom, for in our society it buys freedom or bondage in marriage, and our sexual values are largely coloured by our finances. So often in the eighth house there exists the enactment of a struggle which appears purely material and which is really emotional in origin. It is no wonder that Freud attributed such significance to money in dreams and why psychology continues to recognise the relationship between monetary and emotional generosity or tightness.
It is common to find the individual with afflicted planets here tied to a difficult financial situation following upon a broken marriage or to chronic problems with partners who take advantage of him financially. This is particularly characteristic of an eighth house Saturn. When investigated, it will often be found that on the sexual and emotional levels there was difficulty in expression, and there is no sweeter revenge for many people than to air their disappointment and frustration in the face of an unresponsive Saturnian partner through material demands.
The area into which this discussion takes us is a prickly one, and this is usual for Scorpio and the eighth house; however, although the previous statement may seem inordinately hard, it is ironic that in our society the prostitute, who is at least honest about the wares she sells, is despised and generally ends up in jail, while the wife who fundamentally plays the same role and buys her security with her body is glorified because society condones this mask. There are a great many women who trade their sexual favours for a legal tie which promises them financial security and a great many men who buy these favours in exchange for what have been euphemistically termed "a husband's rights".
There is much rubble which must be dug through where our present attitudes toward sex in relation to money are concerned for we are still following the feudal concepts of family financial structure. In spite of the efforts of more enlightened souls, it will take another generation before we can begin to understand that the real nature of sex has nothing to do with the physical world at all but is the reflection of emotional and mental energies—which are in turn the reflection of still more complex energies. Money and sex are still too complex for the average man to understand except in a literal way, and consequently, we have a tremendous amount of confusion to wade through before the alchemical union of two people into one is understood.
The three watery houses and signs represent three aspects of the feeling nature of man. The fourth house symbolises the nurturing forces which shape his early life. The eighth symbolises the creative and procreative forces which he wields and through which he contacts others. The twelfth symbolises the dissipating forces which eventually break down his sense of separateness and release him into group life.
The eighth house is a battleground, the primary purpose of which is self-understanding and self-mastery through constant crises. There is no greater battleground or stimulus to crisis than the energies which are released through the apparently wholly physical act of sex. The union which occurs on the level of the feeling nature produces a flow of energy which takes a man, for a brief moment, "out of himself"—it is virtually the only time that he can feel himself to be at one with another human being. It is this intimate emotional oneness to which the sexual aspect of the eighth house refers; there is a death of the individual awareness and the birth of a mutual awareness for which reason the Elizabethans called the sexual act "the little death". Unfortunately there are many people who are as frightened of the apparent emotional vulnerability inherent in this as they are of death itself. What they do not recognise is that the union takes place whether it is recognised or not, and on the feeling level it is not possible to totally shut out the partner; it is only possible to believe that he has been shut out.
To consider this point of view is to recognise the real responsibility involved in a sexual union. This has nothing to do with morality. We have had many centuries of moral teachings which have done absolutely nothing to help us understand the real nature of the mystery. The currents of this great creative force or "serpent power"—whose cousins we may see as the serpent in the garden, the ourobouros of alchemy, and the plumed serpent of the Aztecs—may be released in other ways, but these belong to the sphere of the occultist and the magician, and the average individual knows only one—physical sex. Once set in motion, these currents bind and alter both souls involved. All states of consciousness which involve the "death" of the personality—ranging from those induced by drugs to certain kinds of religious ecstasy and trances of varying sorts—come under the rulership of the eighth house for they all refer to this same energy which can separate the self from its vehicles. Physical death is only the last in a series of deaths which begin with birth.
We understand very little about both sex and death at the present time, and this ignorance is more than slightly owed to the confusion of the Piscean era with its pronouncement of sex as evil and of death as the gateway to never ending heaven or hell. This kind of conditioning runs deep, as it has been with us for two thousand years, and even the more liberal-minded and scientifically inclined have the same collective heritage of fear, superstition, and fascination about this area of human experience. The individual with Saturn in the eighth house has a double burden on his hands for he must not only come to terms with Saturn—who is evasive enough on his own—but he must also be willing to make the descent into Pluto's realm if he is to find the treasure hard to attain. It may be said, however, and with no attempt at poetry, that the person who accomplishes this possesses the key to his own immortality.
In a great many cases with Saturn in Scorpio or in the eighth house, the individual's fears or feelings of inadequacy are in the area of sexual expression. This is undoubtedly a symbol for an even deeper fear; but here the symbol is powerful enough in its own right to create great pain in the person's life. The average man who has to deal with this situation will not, however, take kindly to being told this fact bluntly by an astrological consultant. People are as prickly about sex now, when it comes to overt discussion, as they were during Victoria's time. Moreover the man's inadequacy is not a physical one but rather an emotional one; this is a watery, not an earthy, house. Saturn in the eighth is often linked with impotence or frigidity, but these are also not physical problems, and the physician who attempts to cure these problems through hormones alone is committing a grave error. The difficulty here lies in the fear of submission, of violation, of the control of the partner, and of emotional rejection for it is the psychic rather than the physical exchange which contains the threat.
It is fairly common to find an individual with Saturn in the eighth who may be affectionate and loving but who, when the last outpost of separateness is passed in the bedroom, shies like a frightened horse and cannot perform. Or he may overcompensate for his inner fears by becoming the "perfect lover" on a purely physical level, and he may try to block the flow of energy and emotion to his partner so that he is, somehow, not really there. However subtle this mechanism is, it can be deeply frustrating and disturbing to the partner although it may not be recognised on a conscious level by either person. The individual may not be aware that anything is wrong except that somehow it is always faintly disappointing, and he is never able to achieve the satisfaction his fantasies tell him is possible. It takes an unusual degree of honesty to look directly at the subtle patterns which surround an eighth house Saturn for there is, at the same time as fear, the overcompensation of great value placed on performace in our present era. No wonder that these people have such trouble with money during and after marriage; they may easily find themselves under financial obligations concurrent with the amount of frustration they have unconsciously inflicted on their partners.
As with all Saturn positions, two extremes of behaviour are possible. The effects of overcompensation can help to produce the overtly promiscuous person who is not truly motivated by physical pleasure but who is trying particularly hard to be "sexy" because he or she is dimly aware of a fundamental problem in relating emotionally to another person. Here Saturn again tries to make an emotional value into a physical one with little success. This kind of behaviour is prevalent now because there is great emphasis on sexual freedom as the reaction to too much restriction in the past. Both are extremes which are part of the natural process of evolution but which are unpleasant in themselves for fear permeates them both.
It is naturally wise for the consultant astrologer to express diplomacy when dealing with eighth house matters for he may be inviting a punch in the mouth otherwise. But with this kind of eighth house Saturn, we are reminded of that wonderful Shakespearean line, "Methinks thou dost protest too much!" This is reminiscent of the fourth house Saturn who "adores" his family, who had a "wonderful" childhood, who had "no problems whatsoever" with either parent.
On the other hand the person with Saturn in the eighth may cloak his fears with the garment of strong religious or moral convictions of a particularly intolerant sort, thereby declaring as sinful that of which he is essentially afraid. In these cases Saturn is a prompter toward celibacy but for all the wrong reasons. The devil, unfortunately, is not vanquished by being told to go away; it is the light of consciousness that he cannot endure.
We may also find that rare individual who is honest enough with himself to understand that there is something within himself that needs development—as there is in everyone—and who makes the effort not only to discipline but to comprehend his sexual nature as well so that he can express it in the most positive way. In all cases, however, the fascination with death and with sex is very great although there may be fear or disgust at the same time.
It seems that a characteristic pattern of the person with an eighth house Saturn is to be let down emotionally by others and often in the most intimate and painful way; and it is in this pattern that a clue to the larger purpose of the placement may be found. There is frequently a denial of deep emotional contact in childhood, and as Saturn has some connection with the father, this placement often occurs where the father dies or is emotionally cold. Often the individual grows up in an environment where very little physical expression occurs or where the sexual problems existent between the parents have filled the atmosphere with hostility and fear. There is some link between the father and the sexual energies although this may be very subtle. Often it is not subtle, and beatings or assault occur. The effect, whatever the actual circumstance, is a feeling of isolation and loneliness and the awareness that no one can share or alleviate the scars. For Saturn in the eighth house carries deeper emotional scars than any other Saturian placement, and the wounds are slower to heal.
The emotional isolation with an eighth house Saturn is even more acute than with a fourth house Saturn for the emotional needs are far more intense and directed toward individuals. It is union rather than security which is sought and union of a particularly intense and transforming kind. The individual often feels that through another he can be reborn and can achieve awareness of his spiritual nature. The lesson with Saturn, of course, is that one must do it himself; the transformation and resurrection into higher consciousness, the deep knowledge and mastery of the unconscious, must come from within the man himself. There is often a fascination with all things occult or, at the very least, an interest in the depths of the mind, and it is in utilising this interest and in learning the real nature of the energies of creation that the individual becomes a magician. The secrets of the powers of the unconscious are his, and these are literally life-giving powers for the healing of himself and others.

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posted July 01, 2005 04:53 PM            

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Saturn in Sagittarius and the ninth house
The ninth house is considered to be the house of long journeys, both those made by the physical body and those which increase consciousness and broaden the perspective of the mind. In this basic interpretation, which is traditional, the duality of the Gemini-Sagittarius axis and the third and ninth houses may be clearly seen; for third house movement, related to Mercury, deals with the gathering of information, while ninth house movement, related to Jupiter, pertains to the discovery of meaning which emerges when the information is finally put into perspective. These are, as has often been suggested, the two aspects of that perceptive function which we term the mind.
The ninth house is also the house of law by traditional definition, and just as there are two kinds of journeys—those of the body and those of the mind—there are also two kinds of laws. Man-made laws deal with the structuring of society so that it develops along the most positive lines and offers the maximum of protection to its members. Spiritual laws are not very well understood because they can only be apprehended by their reflection in human behaviour; they might in psychological terms be called archetypes in the specific sense that Jung means this word. These laws are simply inherent in life rather than a product of life; in fact they are perhaps, in a more esoteric sense, the reason for life. Unfortunately all we know of these laws, apart from the discoveries of modern psychology is that interpretation given by theology which calls these archetypal patterns the Will of God and then attempts to interpret this Will according to a particular dogma or ideology. The entire subject of law, whether it is the instinctual patterning of nature, the intellectual and moral structuring of man, or a less tangible and more ambiguous patterning of life in general, is at best an abstruse subject and not one to be defined in a few paragraphs; it is likely that there is no proper definition. The realm of the ninth house, however, is an abstruse and subtle realm because it is connected with the intuition and with the intuitive perception of the laws of living and being and consciousness; and an understanding of this house, which requires the exercise of the intuition, can provide the key not only to the over-all patterns of humanity but to the meaning behind a single life. Although a cadent house, and therefore considered by tradition to be "weak", the cadent houses are the birthplaces of thought and the expression of a meaningful life as it is manifested through the midheaven and the tenth house has its seeds in the level of consciousness indicated by the ninth.
This house is steeped in a symbolic perspective which suggests in an interesting manner the meaning of dualism as it is expressed by Sagittarius. From the perspective of the Sagittarian temperament, nothing is taken at face value whether it is a person, a thing, or an experience; it is always a symbol for a broader, more basic experience or archetype, and this perpetual dual awareness of seeing the larger reflected in the smaller, of searching for cosmic meaning in the least of things, is a basic quality of Jupiter, of Sagittarius, and of the ninth house. Jupiter is a symbol for the intuition as Jung describes this function of consciousness—the means of perception whereby the instrinsic meaning of a person, a thing, or an experience is seen instantaneously, without analysis, against the broad framework of the meaning of life as a whole. This is a more modern way of interpreting the ancient Hermetic axiom of "As above, so below"—an expression which is worn through misuse but which still yields increasingly complex meanings with each successive look.
Understandably, as the ninth house is connected with the intuition and the perception of meaning, the broad areas of religion and philosophy are usually associated with it, and on the individual birth chart the ninth house will generally suggest the quality and amount of involvement which the individual is likely to have with what is loosely termed "the Path"—toward individuation or broader consciousness, in a psychological sense, or toward initiation, in an esoteric sense. It is probable that these two are connected in spite of the difference in terminology and viewpoint; and once again the duality of the ninth house is evidenced, for the two worlds of psychology and esotericism, ordinarily considered poles apart, are brought together under the umbrella of the search for meaning.
Through the medium of this house and sign, Saturn tends to have a pronounced effect in colouring the individual's overall view of life and his capacity to find meaning in his own life. Whether we assign Saturn a psychological meaning and associate him with the shadow or "trickster" archetype of the unconscious or whether we assign him an esoteric meaning and call him Lucifer, the behavioural patterns which seem to be concurrent with Saturn in the ninth house follow the usual path of constriction, overcompensation, disillusionment and pain, searching, and eventual inner realisation and control. The kind of pain which usually accompanies this placement is loss of faith, and the search is generally for a new framework of spiritual and moral values by which the life may be given structure and meaning. The opportunity which Saturn offers here seems to be connected with a potential for direct intuitive perception of the wholeness and meaning of the psyche, and this perception often comes through what depth psychology now calls a peak experience. This kind of experience is the goal of the individuation process as Jung structured it and is also the goal of many later developments in the field of depth psychology; it is also, under a different name, the goal of the discipline of certain schools of meditation and yoga. Whatever the experience is and whether it comes in one brief and overwhelming flash or is pieced together over a period of time by an increased flow of the intuitive function, Saturn in the ninth house is connected with the possibility of this kind of experience. This does not mean that only those individuals who have Saturn in Sagittarius or in the ninth house are likely to experience this influx of intuitive perception; however, it is possible that those individuals who have these placements, or have Saturn and Jupiter in aspect, find that it is more necessary for their psychological growth to pursue this kind of perception. It might be said that the psyche aims toward this more urgently because Saturn in the ninth house suggests that the more superficial values and theological offerings will not suffice. The man with Saturn in the ninth house is driven toward a direct experience of what we choose to call God.
As usual Saturn may disguise himself, and one of his favourite presentations when he is in the ninth house is the individual who believes in nothing. This kind of rather compulsive agnosticism or atheism is rarely the outgrowth of logical analysis and a naturally pragmatic or earthy temperament; it is usually linked with fear and a rebellion against an inner urge toward things of a more abstract nature. Sometimes this kind of orientation is linked with an early upbringing of a dogmatic nature and a subsequent disillusionment. Saturn in the ninth house is often connected with a finely tuned senseof justice and a great sensitivity to the plight of humanity as a group, but there is often a tendency toward depression and lack of hope with this placement, particularly hope in the individual's own future. He may find it difficult to make contact with the flow of his over-all self through the intuition and is consequently left with a sense of futility and often with a fear of the future. The man with a ninth house Saturn often finds through hard experience that faith in someone else's interpretation of life and of justice does not suffice, and it is often difficult for him to accept any authority, temporal or spiritual, other than himself because he has been severely disillusioned by such authority in the past. This is the first stage of the process of disillusionment and rebuilding connected with Saturn in the ninth house; if the individual persists in his growth, the development of his intuitive perception into the world of meaning guarantees him a much more direct and meaningful authority—himself.
There appears to be a definite link between Saturn in the
ninth house and an early exposure to religious teachings of a
dogmatic kind. Generally this exposure ends in disillusionment later
in life. The individual will often follow the characteristic pattern of
attempting to crystallise values of an essentially inner and subjective
nature into the formal ritual, structure, and uniformity of orthodox
religious ceremony. This becomes his spiritual security, and he relies
on this structure for his sense of meaning rather than on any real
perception of his own. The higher authority—whether a church or a
father—offers a formula by which the rules given form the structure
of life, and the individual is expected to cling without question to
these rules rather than initiating an inner search whereby he can
apprehend the laws of life by his own inner authority. Someone else's
sincere but often narrow vision becomes his opinion, and he is
trapped within the prison of his own narrow-mindedness. Generally
these opinions in the end fail him for they do not stand up to his own
life experiences. He is thrown back on his own resources and must
begin again to build a different kind of framework for his beliefs.
Saturn appears to have affinity with certain of our western
religions, or at least with particular aspects or interpretations of
them—in particular Catholicism, Mormonism, and Judaism. It is not
that these paths are to be criticised, for the outer form of religion is
created by man in response to an inner need and perception and any
form created is necessary for a period of time. These paths become
problems when they begin to crystallise; and this is often due to theirinterpretation by well-meaning but unimaginative individuals. What Saturn in the ninth house suggests is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with one's religion but rather that there is some degree of crystallisation in the interpretation; the form has outlived its usefulness. Saturnian orientation in a religion inclines toward much emphasis on law, structure, guilt, punishment, and the unknowable Will of God with little emphasis on life, quality, inner meaning, or individual growth. It is often the parental interpretation which is the problem. A childhood steeped in the Saturnian kind of morality and belief can be a fruitful source of guilt. It can help to create in the individual a doubt in his own right to decide for himself the inner or spiritual meaning of his life. This is destructive because it stifles growth. This is often the goad which drives the person with a ninth house Saturn deep into the realm of philosophy or psychology so that some kind of solution can be found for the riddle of one's existence. The prison of a ninth house Saturn is a subtle one, but it is built through loss of hope and faith and an inability to establish the meaningful subjective contact upon which real vision is built. By the denial of this basic need for hope, Saturn suggests the necessity of the individual's finding the needed experience firsthand, without the help of dogma, of groups, guides, or gurus. Nothing except direct experience will suffice. It is in this direction that the opportunity of a ninth house Saturn lies.
The entire spectrum of Saturnian camouflage may be observed with Saturn in the ninth house, ranging from the complete skepticism of the rational thinker through the narrow vision of the fanatic to the disciplines and probings of the practical occultist and finally to the muddled and well-meaning gullibility of the man who is willing to believe anything as long as it will give him back his faith. Behind all these costumes stands the inner urge toward a direct spiritual experience and a direct personal acquisition of knowledge which will throw light on the more ambiguous areas of human existence. This is quite a long way from "conflict with the law", and yet the phrase applies. It is perhaps descriptive of the man who is engaged in a struggle between his own inner convictions and the beliefs and formal trappings which have been handed to him by his environment. This kind of struggle between inner values and outer opinions always applies to Saturn's placement on the birth chart, and in this position the struggle lies in the realm of the ideas which, when coloured by emotional values, become translated into ideals. The Sagittarian temperament must have an ideal by which he can live; without the dream or the vision at the end of the climb, he cannot find the necessary one-pointedness even to begin. The same situation is true of the person with an emphasised ninth house, and it is particularly true in a specific way of the person with Saturn in the ninth. He also must have an ideal by which to live, but he must also understand the idea behind it, which lies beyond the plane of emotional aspiration and is more purely a product of the intuition. Without this kind of direct understanding he loses hope and plunges into the kind of depression which is so typical of this Saturnian placement; or he may seek to escape by one of the various expressions of overcompensation.
Saturn in the ninth house is often referred to as concurrent with a profound and penetrating mind. The more conscious individual will generally express this quality to a greater or lesser degree. He generally arrives at this point, however, by the long circuitous route, and it is only after he has experienced the opposites that he can be truly free of the crystallising effect that Saturn has on the mind. He has the possibility of finding some very valuable answers to some very broad questions; but he must find them himself without help. Saturn will tolerate no one else's authority. The man with a ninth house Saturn usually finds that he has to be his own priest, pope, and saviour because all moral and ethical values lie within him. It is the fine tightrope between the opposites which he generally is required to walk with an acute sensitivity to the fact that all moral and ethical values are, in the end, relative and yet that the universe is intrinsically moral in an altogether different sense. While realising that all ideals and concepts are relative because they are only a part of the whole, the responsibility still lies on his shoulders to act in a fashion which serves the growth of the whole. This is a tightrope in a very literal sense. On one side lies the grey purposeless which usually exists side by side with the relinquishment of one's dreams; on the other lies an incessant struggle with anything which symbolises authority. At the end of the rope, successfully crossed, lies a kind of freedom which usually is experienced with the quality that the Sagittarian expresses most easily: joy.

---

After you've waded thru this and reflected, would love to hear what you think. Liz Greene is THE BEST!!!

PS: Gem, you wrote of your Saturn in the 5th: "Sections in this chapter are quite true...some I fear to be true. What do I fear? Well...not having children for one. I worry that this may come to pass however have many friends with Saturn in 5th who hvae had plenty of children with little problems...Pisces being a fruitful sign does give me hope." I had a beautiful baby boy at 42, sue g the same at 40 -- don't lose hope!

posted July 01, 2005 05:39 PM              

Holy Smokers...this is some major information...and YES...everything wonderful is better when one patiently waits!!

THANK YOU 'Zala!!

OK...I just whipped up some fresh and tasty Homemade Peaches and Cream ice cream (new recipe to try) to kick off my 4th weekend...have a muy delicioso bowl of it in front of me as I sit comfortably peering at my computer screen in earnest!!

Thanks-You KNOW I will get back to you with my thoughts....and thank you as well for the PS...I have hope for children yet...always glad to hear others who have had children later than most...it keeps me smiling!!

See ya soon...your effort is much appreciated my Friend...

GemStar

posted July 01, 2005 06:05 PM              

First...Saturn in Scorpio sounds like him (yes, my friend) in many aspects although I feel confused by it's interpretation in the 8th as well. I am not sure what to apply...especially since the 8th house is so linked to sex. Since we are just friends, I can only correlate what I know from discussions.

How would you read it?

Saturn in 9th is fraught with religious dogma yet individualistic as well...fits him pretty much. He is strongly tied into the Catholic dogma of his upbringing..."Well, this is how my father raised me so this is how I have to act and behave..." All the while sensing that this way of life does not meet his inner needs. A forced prison of sorts...The Catholic church (both of us are Catholic)has inflexible guidelines in many areas...I feel it is up to one's self to use the guidelines yet loosen when your intuition raises questions. (OK-sorta Catholic-lite but that is my personal take and belief).

Many times he talks out of both sides of his mouth regarding morals and ethics...sometimes just to see a reaction or test someone.

OK...I have to study more of it...back to figuring out the Saturn in Scorpio but interpreting it outside of the 8th house...somehow...??? Yes, the 8th and sex plus Scorpio yet how much overflows into the 9th?

Thoughts??

Somehow this chapter seemed more involved than the previous one on Saturn in 5th...true?

Til then...

Hugs-

posted July 01, 2005 06:30 PM              

"As with all Saturn positions, two extremes of behaviour are possible. The effects of overcompensation can help to produce the overtly promiscuous person who is not truly motivated by physical pleasure but who is trying particularly hard to be "sexy" because he or she is dimly aware of a fundamental problem in relating emotionally to another person."

This passage is descriptive of his emotional inability to release intimate feelings outwardly...He has a promiscuous tendency and I am always surprised by his true conservative nature underneath his facade/behaviour.

For example...when deeper emotions are exposed or mentioned...he runs and hides. Not acknowledging the truth. He KNOWs, as only a PIS Asc and PIS Moon person can KNOW, yet seems unable to be comfortable with his deeper feelings and expression.

I feel like he is kind of emotionally blocked and I left a message for him yesterday...with my general/personal thoughts/beliefs on the deeper merging of souls that brought passion and intimacy to levels few may truly experience...and guess what....HE RAN!! I was talking in generalities...we are not involved on that level...why would he run?

It was a continuation of our discussion of 'cordial' relationships vs 'passionate and intimate' ones!!! Me-expressing my desire that while the opportunity to be married again to 10 others if I only wanted a 'cordial' relationship was easily available, I have passed. Knowing that the deep passion and chemistry(tangible and felt by others outside) of which we spoke is obtainable...having had it with my ex-husband. (Only to have divorced him unexpectedly...sad story of course.)

He (my friend) is a gregarious individual...yet does not let anyone in close...I always feel that I can see his soul...and have from the very first meeting. He knows it too...and I think he feels overwhelmed inside of himself at times when I touch on a subject that strikes home.

Can't figure out if it is due to Saturn or the Pisces..what do you have to say 'Zala?

You have Pisces Moon right?

posted July 01, 2005 06:30 PM            

As for regarding yourself as "Catholic-lite", perhaps that's a little judgmental (a dangerous activity to indulge in around Librans)?? I don't believe that you are a spirit that is penned up by narrow religious dogma.....I do not wish to offend, but I think perhaps there will come a time when you grow beyond "Catholicism", when it's not enough to satisfy you.....just a feeling (Pisces Moon in VIII speaking ex officio from belly-button).

posted July 01, 2005 06:40 PM              

It was said more tongue-in-cheek!! Ha,ha!!

Looks like we were writing at the same time! Any more thoughts after that last posting?

Thanks again-and yes, I just re-read it through and chose what fit...it was clearer on the second reading!

posted July 01, 2005 07:12 PM            

"I just re-read it through and chose what fit...it was clearer on the second reading!" -- and long about the 5th or 10th reading, it gets really pure!!! This is what I like so much about Liz Greene, her use of nuance within nuance within nuance. Only when you are ready to glimpse them does one even notice that there is another level beyond the veil.....

I feel sympathy for your friend. I understand the Piscean need to escape, but I think perhaps in him it probably does daily battle with his need to help assuage pain and suffering? I have a feeling from what you write that he does very well at detaching his Emotional from his Intellectual nature.

"He (my friend) is a gregarious individual...yet does not let anyone in close...I always feel that I can see his soul...and have from the very first meeting. He knows it too...and I think he feels overwhelmed inside of himself at times when I touch on a subject that strikes home. I feel you two have a past-life connection. What synastry do you have with your Plutos and Saturns? Linda Goodman said the more Pluto-Saturn contacts with other planets in the natal chart, the more times you have had associations in past lives. What a benefit it will be to both your spirits when his walls come down and he lets you in! He is a very lucky guy to have a friend like you…..

posted July 01, 2005 08:15 PM              

We have MULTIPLE contacts with nearly every planet (personal and Chiron) reciprocating in both directions...the Node contacts are rather numerous as well!

The connection came as an instant flash when we first connected...both of us 'knowing' that we had met a person of great significance in our individual lives. It is a fabulous friendship and I look forward to him stretching up to new levels of openness...it is a slow process and I give my best by example...(Read-stick my neck out with emotional leads to open his communication on personal levels...very carefully at my expense...but I can manage OK).

It is an interesting process...especially because my friend is sooooooo private. My Gem Sun mixed in with a Scorp Rising and Cancer Moon seem to swim the combined waters peacefully most days...although throwing him a curve-ball every so often seems to send him into hiding. Boy I would love to see him break out of that habit!! Aaarrrghhh....

And yes, He seems to hide a great deal of pain...hidden behind a grand exterior of a cheerful smile yet surrounded by heavy vibes that seem not to disappear...unbeknownst to him-though felt by all (co-workers, friends etc..).

Mentioning past lives...
Interestingly, I had a dream of us embracing at an 'older' age at a wonderful green, hilly park...him in his late 80's and me older as well but unable to see my reflection...very clear and emotionally moving.

AND-I do tell him of my dreams...and he loves to hear of them...maybe giving each of us confirmation of those deeper connections that remain unexplained. We both dream of each other...yet he doesn't seem to be afraid of those!!!??? Guess 'dreaming' is a safe-zone of sorts!! He doesn't have to hide there!! Ha,ha...

The Pisces influence is huge and only surpassed by strong Mercury influences...I think there is hope for him 'opening' as my 7th house Taurus Venus/Node/Ceres/Juno stellium conjuncts his 3rd house Venus/Eros/Eros-Psyche MP/Pandora.

Pluto thrown in there within our synastry seems to point to transformation-mostly on his part due to his contacts with/through me....it IS a special friendship...one that runs deep with a serious 'deep water' type of feeling. That's IT!!!...

It just feels like Deep Water...

my toes always reaching below...nowhere near touching the sandy bottom...

Hugs...

posted July 01, 2005 08:21 PM            

You are so intuitive, and I marvel at your wonderful ability to articulate what you are feeling/thinking. May your feet never touch the sandy bottom of this relationship -- may there always be ever-deeper waters to plumb for you two!

PS: I've been having some discussions with a friend about Air Sign Detachment -- with your Air/Water makeup, I would like to have some of your thoughts on the idea sometime. I feel that Intellectual/Emotional are two sides of the same coin and neither can exist without the other. Do you find sometimes that you can detach from your emotions in order to analyze situations? Especially when I'm trying to help someone in emotional difficulty, I seem to automatically shift into this other perception, so that I can examine the issues intellectually before translating them back into emotional terms. Do you do this also?

posted July 01, 2005 08:52 PM              

YIpppeeeee!! I am THA-RILLED!!

I am always changing tenses and forgetting to scan through the sentence again to pick up the mistakes...drives me CRAZY when I see the mistakes after I have posted...whew...problem solved!

Could I be any happier??

posted July 01, 2005 08:55 PM            

Would still like to hear your thoughts on Air Sign Detachment per the above -- you're probably writing right now and I'm posting on top of you! Sometimes Mars in the 1st house can be a real challenge!!!

posted July 01, 2005 09:05 PM              

My Cancer Moon is conjunct my Cancer Mercury so I think that helps my articulation-communication...especially on emotional levels. It makes it nice (IMO) to discuss things with emotion...thrown in with my Passionate Scorp Asc!! OK-sometimes Intense...philisophical due to Moon in 9th...and leaves people wondering what just blew in the door!! Ta-Da...ME!!! Ha,ha....So I have been told. (Yes-I know, rather difficult for you to imagine 'Zala...hee,hee!)

OK-Back to your question:

Yes, I do go into my analysis-mode on the intellectual level (Gem Sun), searching for deeper things (Sun in 8th)...adding in the emotional needs of the person at hand and then bringing it together. Then...of course, relating it back on the person's terms and 'their' emotional level so that they can grasp the solution and understand it easily.

Here is my return question:

Do you believe that other elements would do the same...if they had water as well??

posted July 01, 2005 09:08 PM              

AND...Listen up Joy-Bunny....relax that Mars in First of yours...my reply is coming, it's coming!!!!!!!

Ha,ha...

Of course I could just send you boring one sentence replies...how bout dat??

posted July 01, 2005 09:36 PM            

Good thing that Mars of mine isn't in a fire sign, actually I think Mars in Virgo is the perfect placement for me, and it's my only Earthly planet, Pluto the only Fiery -- the rest are Water and Air.

As for "Yes...I DO have that ability. My first instinct was to say: "Doesn't Everybody do that?"...Ha,ha...I KNOW better!!" And I used to think that everyone else could do it too, and wondered why they DIDN'T/WOULDN'T!! I do not wish it even construed to mean anything derogatory, but I think that Fire and Earth (and Air too) are at times less endowed with intuition unless there is a strong Watery element. As High Commissioner of the Generalizations Police Squad here at LL, I have to be REALLY CAREFUL with comments like this, or I'll have to write myself a ticket! But in my circle of friends/acquaintances, I find less of an emphasis on living by your feelings and intuitions (as I do) in my Fiery and Earthy pals. And I'm NOT saying that they're NOT intuitive -- they ARE -- but it's like I place more value than they do on the intuitive/emotional paths. I have a good friend who's a Cappy -- we share a lot of fun times, but for the essence of Deep, I head for my Scorpio best friend. Possibly it's because I've been friends with her for more than 30 years (and she has a Gem Moon) I understand and seek out Scorpionic-types -- something in me needs the depth of Plutonic personalities, possibly also because my Moon lives at Pluto's house. Of course, I have my own little stinger (Merc in Scorp)!! When I need someone to read between the lines of my wavelength, I need my Watery buds. And I don't think it needs a preponderence of water in the natal chart either, just one planet can be very strong, for example my Pisces Moon as the handle of a bucket formation, the apex of a Yod, and a point of my Watery Grand Trine.....

Going back to the topic to see what you've been writing while I've been writing! Dinners over, sure wish I had some of that ice cream of yours -- how far away from Minnesota are you?!?

posted July 02, 2005 10:35 AM              

Well...sorry I missed you again last night....thought you had left to chase other threads...I would like you to know that I ate your serving last night in YOUR honour...it was Delish and cetainly fit well with maintaining my 'boyish' figure!! (Nothing boyish at all about my petite figure...just like to say that!)

Back to the subject...Watery-type friends vs the rest. (Damn, I am still lamenting about my lost loooong post...) The deeper aspects of my Scorpio Asc like intensity on levels below the surface. It was a stunning day when I realized that not everyone could think so deeply or intuit so easily.

My Leo girl friend has too much earth and fire to 'connect' with her surroundings...it is often frustrating as she is too self-absorbed to notice much beyond herself...yet she wonders why 'I' have the ability to connect so intimately with many. (That 5th house Sat shines brightly in a not so great way with her at times). I asked her how she could walk into a room and NOT notice the happenings..people, mood, placements...She said she walks in and notices NOTHING. What?? (Mirror, mirror, on the wall...) Ha,ha...(as I think to myself)..Need to look beyond yourself my dear.

In trying to explain, she just seems lost. Then the envy comes out in her and she perceives my deeper analysis on subjects as 'judgmental'. Why would someone think that other ways of thinking about subjects are judgmental? Watery people look beyond...naturally.

Perhaps it is my intensity that comes across in a way that she wants to change into a negative. I dunno...just been frustrated lately and not knowing how else to be with someone who seems to stay in a selfish/self-centered mode. I have known her for 25 years...and she enjoys being a 'victim' and the attention of ANYONE satifies her need to be recognized. Both showing direct effects of Leo Sun and Sat in 5th....Wow.

So here is my question: Why is it difficult for other types...fire, etc...to want/desire to seek deeper depths in others? Without that, the connection with others lacks something...it just seems superficial at times. And that appears quite satisfactory to them. How could that be satisfying? What do you think?

Hugs-

GemStar (she sends a silent wish to the internet posting gods-that-be...'Fly and be Free my little message'...)