posted October 25, 2005 09:57 AM            

Nurse Neptune my dear, there is nothing WRONG with Saturn in the 8th. It's just a potential that can affect your life.....

quote:

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Saturn in Scorpio and the eighth house
The symbolic progression of man's evolution from Aries to Pisces has been described in many sources. There is a similar progression within the three signs belonging to one element, and here the progression represents the stages of development in that particular sphere of consciousness. The first sign or house belonging to that element is generally the clearest and most direct in meaning and relates to the development of the individual personality and its integration. The second sign of that element denotes a point of crisis for here the individual must take his own experience and integrate it into the group of which he is a part. This is rarely done without struggle, for this too is an expansion of consciousness from the personal to the universal. The third and last sign or house refers to the larger unit of the group and infers the final purpose of the particular level of consciousness symbolised by that element.
The watery signs and houses do not contradict this. In the fourth house a man is first subjected as an isolated unit to emotional forces and pressures from the environment which shape his future growth as a personality. He has the opportunity of building a base within himself so that the projection into circumstance is withdrawn and inner security on the feeling level becomes a permanent possession of his character. In the eighth house, the man must take his feeling nature as a channel of expression and contact and begin to function in personal relationships with others. The flow of feeling is now between him and another. Finally, in the twelfth house he has the opportunity of taking the wisdom he has acquired from his experiences and offering it to the group in service for the group development. He is no longer an isolated unit but part of a larger evolving life. This is a helpful way of viewing things which is useful to remember in considering Saturn in the eighth house for this house is probably the most misunderstood and maligned of all the houses in the horoscope.
This house is primarily described as either the house of physical death—which suggests that it has no value or activity outside that brief moment when we take leave of the physical sheath—or as "money received from others", a description which is an insult to the complexity and power of the sign and planet associated with the house. Both interpretations are valid as far as they go, but they do not help in an understanding of Saturn placed in the eighth beyond the reading of a death in old age and the denial of inheritance; and both of these readings are frequently mistaken. The interchange of finances between two people in partnership may be one of the by-products of the house, but it is only when the meaning of money as a symbol of emotional values is understood that the more complex meaning of "money received from others" becomes clear. Death itself does indeed come under this house, but there are many kinds of death, and most of them are not physical; and every death is followed inevitably by a rebirth because it is only the form, and not the life which inherits the form, that dies.
As a watery house, the eighth deals primarily with emotional exchange. As opposite from the second house, that which has physical value and meaning and which constitutes stability and self-sustenance becomes that which has emotional value and which constitutes stability of feeling. It is in the eighth sign, Scorpio, that we may find a clue to the significance of this house in matters of sex, emotional crises, and the death and rebirth of the instincts as purified desire.
This is primarily a house of crisis and refers to those points in life where the emotional ties to others force a man to the realisation of some vital area of his own feeling nature which must be recognised, examined, and purified. Here money becomes a symbol of emotional dependence or freedom, for in our society it buys freedom or bondage in marriage, and our sexual values are largely coloured by our finances. So often in the eighth house there exists the enactment of a struggle which appears purely material and which is really emotional in origin. It is no wonder that Freud attributed such significance to money in dreams and why psychology continues to recognise the relationship between monetary and emotional generosity or tightness.
It is common to find the individual with afflicted planets here tied to a difficult financial situation following upon a broken marriage or to chronic problems with partners who take advantage of him financially. This is particularly characteristic of an eighth house Saturn. When investigated, it will often be found that on the sexual and emotional levels there was difficulty in expression, and there is no sweeter revenge for many people than to air their disappointment and frustration in the face of an unresponsive Saturnian partner through material demands.
The area into which this discussion takes us is a prickly one, and this is usual for Scorpio and the eighth house; however, although the previous statement may seem inordinately hard, it is ironic that in our society the prostitute, who is at least honest about the wares she sells, is despised and generally ends up in jail, while the wife who fundamentally plays the same role and buys her security with her body is glorified because society condones this mask. There are a great many women who trade their sexual favours for a legal tie which promises them financial security and a great many men who buy these favours in exchange for what have been euphemistically termed "a husband's rights".
There is much rubble which must be dug through where our present attitudes toward sex in relation to money are concerned for we are still following the feudal concepts of family financial structure. In spite of the efforts of more enlightened souls, it will take another generation before we can begin to understand that the real nature of sex has nothing to do with the physical world at all but is the reflection of emotional and mental energies—which are in turn the reflection of still more complex energies. Money and sex are still too complex for the average man to understand except in a literal way, and consequently, we have a tremendous amount of confusion to wade through before the alchemical union of two people into one is understood.
The three watery houses and signs represent three aspects of the feeling nature of man. The fourth house symbolises the nurturing forces which shape his early life. The eighth symbolises the creative and procreative forces which he wields and through which he contacts others. The twelfth symbolises the dissipating forces which eventually break down his sense of separateness and release him into group life.
The eighth house is a battleground, the primary purpose of which is self-understanding and self-mastery through constant crises. There is no greater battleground or stimulus to crisis than the energies which are released through the apparently wholly physical act of sex. The union which occurs on the level of the feeling nature produces a flow of energy which takes a man, for a brief moment, "out of himself"—it is virtually the only time that he can feel himself to be at one with another human being. It is this intimate emotional oneness to which the sexual aspect of the eighth house refers; there is a death of the individual awareness and the birth of a mutual awareness for which reason the Elizabethans called the sexual act "the little death". Unfortunately there are many people who are as frightened of the apparent emotional vulnerability inherent in this as they are of death itself. What they do not recognise is that the union takes place whether it is recognised or not, and on the feeling level it is not possible to totally shut out the partner; it is only possible to believe that he has been shut out.
To consider this point of view is to recognise the real responsibility involved in a sexual union. This has nothing to do with morality. We have had many centuries of moral teachings which have done absolutely nothing to help us understand the real nature of the mystery. The currents of this great creative force or "serpent power"—whose cousins we may see as the serpent in the garden, the ourobouros of alchemy, and the plumed serpent of the Aztecs—may be released in other ways, but these belong to the sphere of the occultist and the magician, and the average individual knows only one—physical sex. Once set in motion, these currents bind and alter both souls involved. All states of consciousness which involve the "death" of the personality—ranging from those induced by drugs to certain kinds of religious ecstasy and trances of varying sorts—come under the rulership of the eighth house for they all refer to this same energy which can separate the self from its vehicles. Physical death is only the last in a series of deaths which begin with birth.
We understand very little about both sex and death at the present time, and this ignorance is more than slightly owed to the confusion of the Piscean era with its pronouncement of sex as evil and of death as the gateway to never ending heaven or hell. This kind of conditioning runs deep, as it has been with us for two thousand years, and even the more liberal-minded and scientifically inclined have the same collective heritage of fear, superstition, and fascination about this area of human experience. The individual with Saturn in the eighth house has a double burden on his hands for he must not only come to terms with Saturn—who is evasive enough on his own—but he must also be willing to make the descent into Pluto's realm if he is to find the treasure hard to attain. It may be said, however, and with no attempt at poetry, that the person who accomplishes this possesses the key to his own immortality.
In a great many cases with Saturn in Scorpio or in the eighth house, the individual's fears or feelings of inadequacy are in the area of sexual expression. This is undoubtedly a symbol for an even deeper fear; but here the symbol is powerful enough in its own right to create great pain in the person's life. The average man who has to deal with this situation will not, however, take kindly to being told this fact bluntly by an astrological consultant. People are as prickly about sex now, when it comes to overt discussion, as they were during Victoria's time. Moreover the man's inadequacy is not a physical one but rather an emotional one; this is a watery, not an earthy, house. Saturn in the eighth is often linked with impotence or frigidity, but these are also not physical problems, and the physician who attempts to cure these problems through hormones alone is committing a grave error. The difficulty here lies in the fear of submission, of violation, of the control of the partner, and of emotional rejection for it is the psychic rather than the physical exchange which contains the threat.
It is fairly common to find an individual with Saturn in the eighth who may be affectionate and loving but who, when the last outpost of separateness is passed in the bedroom, shies like a frightened horse and cannot perform. Or he may overcompensate for his inner fears by becoming the "perfect lover" on a purely physical level, and he may try to block the flow of energy and emotion to his partner so that he is, somehow, not really there. However subtle this mechanism is, it can be deeply frustrating and disturbing to the partner although it may not be recognised on a conscious level by either person. The individual may not be aware that anything is wrong except that somehow it is always faintly disappointing, and he is never able to achieve the satisfaction his fantasies tell him is possible. It takes an unusual degree of honesty to look directly at the subtle patterns which surround an eighth house Saturn for there is, at the same time as fear, the overcompensation of great value placed on performace in our present era. No wonder that these people have such trouble with money during and after marriage; they may easily find themselves under financial obligations concurrent with the amount of frustration they have unconsciously inflicted on their partners.
As with all Saturn positions, two extremes of behaviour are possible. The effects of overcompensation can help to produce the overtly promiscuous person who is not truly motivated by physical pleasure but who is trying particularly hard to be "sexy" because he or she is dimly aware of a fundamental problem in relating emotionally to another person. Here Saturn again tries to make an emotional value into a physical one with little success. This kind of behaviour is prevalent now because there is great emphasis on sexual freedom as the reaction to too much restriction in the past. Both are extremes which are part of the natural process of evolution but which are unpleasant in themselves for fear permeates them both.
It is naturally wise for the consultant astrologer to express diplomacy when dealing with eighth house matters for he may be inviting a punch in the mouth otherwise. But with this kind of eighth house Saturn, we are reminded of that wonderful Shakespearean line, "Methinks thou dost protest too much!" This is reminiscent of the fourth house Saturn who "adores" his family, who had a "wonderful" childhood, who had "no problems whatsoever" with either parent.
On the other hand the person with Saturn in the eighth may cloak his fears with the garment of strong religious or moral convictions of a particularly intolerant sort, thereby declaring as sinful that of which he is essentially afraid. In these cases Saturn is a prompter toward celibacy but for all the wrong reasons. The devil, unfortunately, is not vanquished by being told to go away; it is the light of consciousness that he cannot endure.
We may also find that rare individual who is honest enough with himself to understand that there is something within himself that needs development—as there is in everyone—and who makes the effort not only to discipline but to comprehend his sexual nature as well so that he can express it in the most positive way. In all cases, however, the fascination with death and with sex is very great although there may be fear or disgust at the same time.
It seems that a characteristic pattern of the person with an eighth house Saturn is to be let down emotionally by others and often in the most intimate and painful way; and it is in this pattern that a clue to the larger purpose of the placement may be found. There is frequently a denial of deep emotional contact in childhood, and as Saturn has some connection with the father, this placement often occurs where the father dies or is emotionally cold. Often the individual grows up in an environment where very little physical expression occurs or where the sexual problems existent between the parents have filled the atmosphere with hostility and fear. There is some link between the father and the sexual energies although this may be very subtle. Often it is not subtle, and beatings or assault occur. The effect, whatever the actual circumstance, is a feeling of isolation and loneliness and the awareness that no one can share or alleviate the scars. For Saturn in the eighth house carries deeper emotional scars than any other Saturian placement, and the wounds are slower to heal.
The emotional isolation with an eighth house Saturn is even more acute than with a fourth house Saturn for the emotional needs are far more intense and directed toward individuals. It is union rather than security which is sought and union of a particularly intense and transforming kind. The individual often feels that through another he can be reborn and can achieve awareness of his spiritual nature. The lesson with Saturn, of course, is that one must do it himself; the transformation and resurrection into higher consciousness, the deep knowledge and mastery of the unconscious, must come from within the man himself. There is often a fascination with all things occult or, at the very least, an interest in the depths of the mind, and it is in utilising this interest and in learning the real nature of the energies of creation that the individual becomes a magician. The secrets of the powers of the unconscious are his, and these are literally life-giving powers for the healing of himself and others.

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posted October 25, 2005 01:06 PM            

It has taught me so many lessons.... in a way it helped even out that Mars in Pisces tendancy to want to just merge and Sag Sun / venus tendancy to want to just "play".

I have experienced the forced celibacy because I believe in what my mother said about women not giving themselves out (to the point where I threw all my energies into school / career and abstained from a relationship). I still had fun.. just not of the intimate sort.. and when a guy got too close.. I ended it quickly.

I have never been known as frigid, but I have kept a significant portion of myself from a lover when I don't feel the trust. My ex felt it right after I moved out. I no longer could believe him (financially he was a mess and he was a pathological liar). I had always believed in the true exchange of energy and sex in the bedroom.. but could not allow that sacred part of me to touch him.

Now.. with the ex-Leo.. I had no problem expressing myself in that way...

It is also true that many of the sig relationships I had left me almost financially ruined once it was over or left them with major debt. It is almost an attraction.. the men that have the ability to have nothing and then think I will support them... they are attracted to me and my potential. It used to make me physically ill when my ex-Taurus would say "well baby, now that you have the great and upwardly mobile job, you can support me and I can be the house husband". Yeah... that is exactly what I wanted.. a cheating, lying lazy a$$ at home while I am working my butt off to support the family.. LOL...

Those comments helped in getting me away from the relationship.

The truth is... Saturn in the 8th has to come to terms with our own sexual desires and capabilities. We cannot use them to seduce for the sake of showing we are sexual. We cannot become frigid for fear of the merge.. Everything in balance LOL..

posted October 25, 2005 05:15 PM            

Do you have this information in a book, or do you find it online? I like how it puts everything together instead of planet/sign and planet/house.

I have saturn in leo in the eighth and I've been looking for info on this. If you have a link, would you be willing to share? I don't want to make you type up a bunch of info.

posted October 25, 2005 05:35 PM              

Do you know what’s weird - I was just reading about my Saturn in astro.com and when I came here, I found this!!

“The difficulty here lies in the fear of submission, of violation, of the control of the partner, and of emotional rejection for it is the psychic rather than the physical exchange which contains the threat.”
Oh my God!!! How did she know that? The girl must have Saturn in the 8th.

“Here Saturn again tries to make an emotional value into a physical one with little success.”
Well I’m definitely not a “prompter toward celibacy”

“this placement often occurs where the father dies or is emotionally cold.”
My God, I grew up without my biological farther - who’s incredibly detached…he’s a Gemini.

“For Saturn in the eighth house carries deeper emotional scars than any other Saturian placement, and the wounds are slower to heal.”
Wow…
You know what? It’s ok, I’ll make it - I’ll be alright. There’s a light at the end of the tunnel. I’m a survivor.

*slaps Jupiter conj Uranus*

Emotional isolation comes up - which perfectly describes my childhood. I grew up around lots and lots of friends and relatives - yet I still felt alone *sigh*

“The individual often feels that through another he can be reborn and can achieve awareness of his spiritual nature. The lesson with Saturn, of course, is that one must do it himself; the transformation and resurrection into higher consciousness, the deep knowledge and mastery of the unconscious, must come from within the man himself.”

You know, this is good because I’ve identified with the problem…and slowly trying to sort it out.
But does this mean I have to be alone the rest of my life? Can’t I transform by myself - with someone there? Must I run away to a mountain and meditate alone forever? Oh man that’s scary!

“There is often a fascination with all things occult or, at the very least, an interest in the depths of the mind, and it is in utilising this interest and in learning the real nature of the energies of creation that the individual becomes a magician. The secrets of the powers of the unconscious are his, and these are literally life-giving powers for the healing of himself and others.”

It’s nice that it ended on a high, slightly weird, note.
Doesn’t Mercury aspecting Chiron also say something about magician?

posted October 25, 2005 05:39 PM              

Wow! Thanks for the warning - altho not intentional - about men who want to be supported.

posted October 25, 2005 06:41 PM              

As for supporting, he did support his son even though he lost custody and it destroyed him ultimately financially. However, he refused to touch his wife after the birth, and really had issues with being with his son. By rejecting his early home life and his abusive father, he made big leaps, but not big enough to dig himself out of his fears.

It's so true Saturn in water signs and water houses, do react to emotional rejections more than anything: having to work all the time the worst thing I can do is get involved with another water/saturn. The physical is just not enough.

posted October 25, 2005 07:04 PM            

You know what? It’s ok, I’ll make it - I’ll be alright. There’s a light at the end of the tunnel. I’m a survivor.
You ARE fine and you WILL be fine!! It’s NOT an oncoming train!!

Emotional isolation comes up - which perfectly describes my childhood. I grew up around lots and lots of friends and relatives - yet I still felt alone *sigh*
Don’t I know what you mean, sweetie….. but – aren’t all of us really alone, stuck for now in these bubbles of bone and flesh, trying to figure out what the F*** we’re supposed to be doing here??

But does this mean I have to be alone the rest of my life? Can’t I transform by myself - with someone there? Must I run away to a mountain and meditate alone forever? Oh man that’s scary!
No, you don’t have to be alone for the rest of your life – you could “settle” for someone/anyone. But do you really want a body just to Be There?
No solitary mountains required – I meditate with a 9-year-old boy in the house! Being alone doesn’t have to be scary – but being lonely probably is…..I don’t know, because I like alone-ness, and don’t feel “lonely”. I guess it kinda depends on how comfy you are in your own skin, with your own company? Libra/Leo here loves people. Everyone has a unique viewpoint and story to tell and I love to hear those stories – where you have been, who you’ve met on the way and how you feel about it is fascinating to me, but Pisces Moon wants that solitary mountain (or solitary ocean! ).

posted October 25, 2005 07:06 PM            

{{love & hugs}}
‘Zala

posted October 25, 2005 07:10 PM            

quote:

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Saturn In the watery signs and houses
A traditional reading of Saturn in the signs and houses may be found in a number of textbooks. Some are more psychological in their orientation, but the majority are concerned with his limiting and delaying influence upon the material plane or the world of events. This is certainly a valid method of interpretation as he unquestionably coincides with hindrances and the frustration of the even flow of material and emotional comfort in life. An analysis of Saturn's effects by aspect is also available from many sources, and this area also has been well documented through observation, experience, and tradition. The form side of Saturn's expression has in fact been most adequately covered and will continue to be so as further research is done in the areas of midpoints, harmonics, and medical astrology; however, it is the inner meaning which here concerns us.
No interpretation of Saturn by sign, house, or aspect can be complete, of course, since it is necessary to synthesise these elements and align them with the combination of Sun, Moon, and Ascendant first of all, corresponding with the individual's conscious expression, his unconscious or instinctual reactions, and his behavioural patterns. These isolated factors in combination with Saturn become the spinal column of the natal chart from the point of view of character. They will in a very concise manner shed light on what the individual wants (the Sun), what he needs (the Moon), the style in which he goes about getting these things (the Ascendant), and the thing within the man which causes him either to fail or to be dissatisfied once he has achieved his desire (Saturn). This is, of course, grossly simplified, and entire volumes could be filled on all the known meanings of the Moon alone; however, from this relationship of four factors—and every trinity must in the end be integrated by a fourth factor, a psychological as well as an esoteric law—we may gain insight into the meat of the individual struggle toward greater consciousness indicated on every birth chart. There is no chart which does not contain Saturn, however dignified and admirably aspected he may be, and there is no life without struggle.
We are taught in esoteric doctrine that the physical plane is the plane of effects, the last and densest of a progressively more subtle series of states of consciousness. Many people conceive of these planes as having a location spatially, but they have never been described in this way: the planes refer to states of being, or of awareness, rather than of place, and all coexist simultaneously at the same time and all the time, in all planes, and at the same point. This is a difficult concept for the rational and one-pointed intellect to grasp as it contains a paradox and must be perceived through the intuition which is capable of reconciling the opposing ideas inherent in a paradox and seeing them as one unit. This concept of the planes does not contradict the findings of psychology although the terminology used by both ways of thought is different. The man who is following the devotional path will find the language of the esoteric teachings comfortable with its references to soul, to spirit, to illumination. The man who is following the path of mental development may find it more acceptable to think in terms of conscious and unconscious, of repressions and peak experiences, and of the total integrated self rather than the Monad. It does not matter particularly which set of terms is used to understand the development of man. The worlds of the body, the feeling nature, the mind, and the intuition are essentially the same as the physical, astral, mental, and spiritual planes.
No event or mundane circumstance can occur without having first been set in motion by an idea, charged with emotion, and then manifested as an action. Beyond these three stages of an experience lies the meaning of the experience in relation to the whole, which it is the function of the intuition to perceive. The world of feeling lies directly behind the world of events, and it is this world with which the watery signs and houses are concerned. The astral plane symbolises the "wish life" or feeling nature of humanity, and the astral body—or feeling nature—of an individual man is often the world of causes for everything which happens to him in external life. He is, however, largely unaware of the potency of this feeling nature, particularly at the present juncture where emphasis is placed on external behaviour rather than on the quality of desire. As long as something is not "done", the individual will convince himself that hehas no desire to do it; consequently, the power of the feelings increases because they are forced underground, into the realm of the unconscious. From this subterranean position the feelings will force a man to action or attract certain kinds of illnesses or behavioural patterns which he does not understand, and which may hurt him, and which appear to be coming from somewhere else. Psychic energy, like physical energy, cannot be destroyed; in fact they are the same, both kinds of energy, and will merely follow a different channel of expression if the usual one is blocked. Blockage on the level of the feeling nature is symbolised by Saturn in a watery sign or house, and true to form the psychic energy which would ordinarily seek release through expression of feeling must take another channel of expression—frequently through the physical body or through certain kinds of events.
The concept of different planes or states of consciousness
which are all part of one life, but which may not be clear or known to
the conscious mind, is most helpful in understanding the kind of
responsibility which Saturn requires. As the majority of people are
polarised in their feeling nature and are motivated by desire, it is
particularly important to understand this principle if any sense is to
be made of a watery Saturn. It is useless, of course, to tell the average
man, come for an astrological consultation, that his pain is, finally
and ultimately, part of the growth and evolution of a larger life of
which he is a part; it does not help him to overcome his personal
problem in terms that he can understand. Nor is it likely that he will
be interested in the fact that the soul of the earth itself is preparing for
initiation into a higher sphere of consciousness and that his personal
struggle is intimately connected with this larger struggle. He will
simply want to know why his wife left him, or why he has arthritis, or
why his business has collapsed. If he can understand, however, that
there is more to him than the small and feeble spark of his conscious
awareness and that in coming to terms with that in him which seeks
expression but which he has blocked through fear, he may be able to
accept his experiences as a positive and necessary phase of growth
and prevent their future repetition, he can acquire a sense of meaning
and purpose in his life. He may even find that his wife comes back.
There is an aspect to Saturn which is given insufficient
attention yet which holds much of the key to his meaning. This is his
penchant for disguise, beautifully symbolised by the Egyptian myth
of Osiris who, in flight from the wrath of Set, first changed himselfinto a sea-serpent and then into a crocodile—the original bestial symbol of the sign—to avoid detection. We may see the remnants of this disguise in the mountain goat who has a sea creature's hind quarters. A goat he may be, and his natural habitat may be the barren slopes and crags of the highest mountains, but when necessary, he can swim in the water of the emotional world and can effectively disguise himself in the face of necessity as some other sort of creature. There are many other references to this deliberate duality which is unlike the natural instinctive duality or flexibility of the mutable signs. One is the Roman god Janus, god of gateways, for whom the predominantly Capricornian month of January is named and who was possessed of the remarkable attribute of two heads—so that he could look backwards and forwards, ostensibly, guarding where one has been as well as where one is going, but also because he was, figuratively as well as literally, two-faced.
There is also no sign other than Capricorn which is represented by two distinct glyphs, drawn in totally different ways. This may seem like a small point, but those acquainted with either the esoteric realm or the realm of psychology in its deeper aspects will recognise the fact that there are no coincidences.
We are familiar enough with that innate trait of the strongly Capricornian individual to justify the means by the end and to accept willingly the outward trappings of submission for a period of time if these will eventually help him to earn the fruits of his ambitious. Yet Capricorn is not ordinarily considered a deceptive sign, in the sense that the Piscean in his vague elusiveness is deceptive, or the Geminian in his tendency to work his way into an intellectual corner and trick his way out again, or even the Scorpian who cloaks his essential emotional vulnerability and sensitivity with a barrage of false clues. It would pay to look twice at our hard-working, self-disciplined mountain goat for no one overcompensates as readily as he. We have many signs and planets which change colour like chameleons: all of the mutables, also Cancer, the Moon, Neptune, Mercury. But all these are instinctually changeable and fluctuate because it is their nature to do so whether the circumstances require it or not. Only Saturn calculates his defense, in the same manner as a competent solicitor, both to protect himself from the attack of the environment and to protect himself from the conscious discovery of the individual himself. Yet it is the individual who initiates the protection in both cases.
It is the free will of the individual, contingent upon the degree of his self-knowledge, that decides whether Saturn will be lead or gold or any of the intermediate states. His position at birth may be read in either of two ways, or both simultaneously, and his contact with other planets may bring out two apparently contradictory modes of expression at the same time. Freud termed this state ambivalent emotion; he was the first to postulate the idea that we may both love and hate someone at the same time and one does not negate the other. Things are never as they appear with Saturn; and whenever there is light, there is shadow. The understanding of his innate duality, and the necessity and value of this duality, alleviates much of the pain of the struggle.
Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces and their corresponding houses—the fourth, eighth, and twelfth—are directly concerned with emotion and with motivations which lie below the surface of consciousness. Saturn in any of these signs or houses is extremely elusive because the average individual is rarely aware of the unconscious emotional frustration which lies behind his actions; he only knows that he is isolated and emotionally vulnerable, if he knows even that much. Saturn in these signs and houses is most typical of the kind of pain on the feeling level which finds its way to the therapist's couch, for often an objective viewpoint is needed to help guide the man through the mazes of his own feeling nature.

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posted October 27, 2005 03:01 PM            

Love ya!!
Sonia

posted October 28, 2005 06:55 AM              

“you are the 2nd woman in a week to tell me she’s in love with me! And SHE said “ok ok I’ll stop” too.”
No way!! That’s weird - well you can tell her I’m prepared to share. It‘s your Libra charm zala.

“I guess it kinda depends on how comfy you are in your own skin, with your own company?”
Do you know when people go through changes, as in realising their problems and stuff. It takes what? months…maybe even years. In the past week I’ve learnt more about myself - than probably in my whole life.
now can you imagine haw emotionally painfull that it - I’m feeling these Uranus transits……..and on three of my planets *cries*

I feel like I’ve come out of an emotional car crash, I don’t feel the same. It’s sad…really.

lol at text box I feel your pain lol same here.

Aww my Leo sister is too cute, she came to show me some pictures of the zodiac in one of her kids mag. All she knows is that she’s a Leo. I don’t think I should confuse her with anything else

"The more I have opened my heart to vulnerability in this life, the more love has been given to me and the connections more magical than ever....and the quality has elevated to the point of very few people being chosen to be close to me....it may sound contradictory however, it is not.....it is like allowing the cream to rise to the top....allowing it to happen....KNOWING it will happen if one is patient......and making concious choices along the way..…”
I’m not one to get all muchy, but that’s really beautiful I hope this sinks through - altho it wont be easy.

posted October 28, 2005 07:01 AM              

“Next New Moon I will wish for you to find a friend soon who is near your level emotionally/mentally/spiritually – with your Virgo Moon (what house?) I suspect communication (both psychic and verbal) would be important in all your relationships…..”
Moon in the 7th.
That would be nice NONE of my friends are near my level “emotionally/mentally/spiritually” so obviously they don’t understand.

“Yeah, I saw that Chiron/Merc for you, you Witchy Woman!!” well I was a witch last year for Halloween…my sister was a fairy, naturally lol

“Seriously though: define “magic” for me. What does magic mean to you??”
If you asked me that a couple of days ago, I would have given a long answer. Now *sniffle* I don’t believe in it. I realised that I should only focus on what’s real. Focus on the future, and leave that dreamy Neptunian (sp?) part of me behind I guess my Virgo Moon finally won the fight against my Sun. I think that’s why I’m so depressed. Last time I was this serious was at 6years and under. I don’t wanna go back

posted October 28, 2005 09:48 AM            

Thank you .
Take your time.

Love ya,
Sonia

posted November 01, 2005 10:45 PM            

I liked your replies to my unsolicited advice

What does magic mean to you??”
If you asked me that a couple of days ago, I would have given a long answer. Now *sniffle* I don’t believe in it. I realised that I should only focus on what’s real. Focus on the future, and leave that dreamy Neptunian (sp?) part of me behind
WHAT????? We need to have a long chat, girleen. I’m despairing that you’ve (temporarily) given up on magic in your life!!!

Oh dear, the poor unsuspecting gal dangled debate-bait in front of a Libra – you KNOW that’s irresistible (think “Mom”)!!! Please share with me what “focusing on what’s real” means?? We NEED our Neptunes – many people get caught up in the superficial banality of daily life and forget to DREAM. I’ll get your chart into astro.com so I can have a better idea of your sunarU transits…..

posted November 02, 2005 04:55 AM              

“Oh dear, the poor unsuspecting gal dangled debate-bait in front of a Libra – you KNOW that’s irresistible (think “Mom”)!!!”
This is exactly what happened last night with mum

“focusing on what’s real” it means, working hard…doing tedious stuff - forgetting about what I want, and focus on what I need. Didn’t last long. Kinda fading away now. The transiting Moon that day was being bad.

I haven’t had breakfast yet…or water! so my brain is kinda dead off for a break

posted November 03, 2005 05:34 PM            

Thanks for copying all this out,.. so much brilliance to digest. So many gems, but I especially like this one: "The devil, unfortunately, is not vanquished by being told to go away; it is the light of consciousness that he cannot endure."

I have Saturn in the 8th (in Virgo), in addition to being a Scorpio with a Cappy Ascendant. I can totally appreciate and relate to most everything she says about emotional blocks and ambivalence. Thank you also for your thoughtful reply to my "Asperger's" thread, and for missing me.