posted January 19, 2006 09:08 PM              

Is the Sign, OR Ruler of the House it's in, the same Sign or Ruling Planet as your Sun or Asc?

Example for House:

posted January 20, 2006 01:26 PM              

would moon be significant? in other words, i know someone who has his BML (lilith) in the 9th house, and my moon is in sagittarius.

what is interesting or significant about this?

posted January 20, 2006 02:39 PM            

My Sun sign is Virgo (ruled by Mercury), and Rising Sign is Aries (ruled by Mars)...

???
Not sure the significance of all this, but hey, I'm curious

posted January 20, 2006 07:20 PM              

GemStar

posted January 20, 2006 11:25 PM              

THAT'LL WORK!

Virgo-AriesArtist -

Yeah, you would be looking for:

* Your Sun, Asc or Moon in Pisces or Capricorn

OR

* Your Sun, Asc or Moon in the 12th or the 10th (EXcluding your Asc, of course, which IS the 1st House).

Doesn't seem to have a connection. But I'm also kind of amazed at how many others are posting with some matches. I wonder if maybe your Chart has a significant feature which is connected to your relationship bliss, which may speak to this. NOT to try to force this in, but just as a continuation of this exercise.

For example, if you have a strong configuration, such as a T-Square, or Kite. Whatever YOU think as something significant in your own Chart. Know what I mean?

I mean, I have no set rules here for astrology. It's just a fun exercise to see if any meaningful connections are made.

posted January 20, 2006 11:31 PM              

A while back I did, what I would consider, extensive research on the Lilith's because I have a signifant emphasis on my 4th House in this lifetime, and my true Lilith is in my 4th House. As time goes on, there is even more and more pointing to my 4th House ISSUES as the crux of my life, some having to do with other astrological factors.

The 3 Lilith's are very easily confused, as you may know, and there is a lot of misleading information out there! A LOT!

As far as this thread, it is not based on any consistent information out there. It's just an exercise to see if any connections are made.

posted January 23, 2006 01:19 PM              

AJ,

i found this site while perusing earlier today...
http://nmazca.com/coeli/astroref.htm

this is from it, about lilith...

"lilith's position tells us about unfulfilled wishes, the suppressed shadow side of our personality, painful experiences, privation and darkness. as with pluto, the processes triggered here should lead to slef-recognition and the acceptance of our dark side. good and bad should not be differentiated from each other, but human existence should be seen as many-faceted.

in a woman's horoscope, lilith represents which part of life the woman plays a strong role in. lilith is very evident and dominant in charts of powerful, creative women. those who are quite successful and yet vulnerable and sensitive. many have unconventional relationships. in a man's horoscope lilith can reveal what type of woman he fears most and which type of woman can drive him to despair."

i found this pretty interesting re your thoughts on lilith connections...for instance, the *house* where lilith falls in a man's chart would indicate the area where he encounters strong women that maybe drive him over the edge...? so basically, a woman he meets with important planets (like the lights) or points (like the AC) in the sign attached the house where his lilith is might awaken some lilith energy in him, or something like that.

"For men, Lilith may also represent hidden powers struggles and unresolved issues with the women in his life.

For both sexes Lilith shows us what we are most secretive about. Look for Lilith in your chart to see what defense mechanisms you use to hide any emotional wounding. Lilith in everyone's chart represents sexual passion!"

check out this site:
http://nmazca.com/coeli/lilith.htm

me, i have lilith in virgo conjunct pluto in the 12th house (part of a natal t-square). in this last relationship i had, where his lilith was in the 9th linking to my sag moon, there were other very strong lilith connections as well, but on my end. my lilith/pluto in virgo were smack on his sun/mercury/NN/eros conjunction in 11th. perhaps this was why this relationship was so painful and intense, almost obsessive.

i dont know, lilith energy confuses me. i have been dealing with her a lot since meeting that guy, especially after the relationship ended early last year. in my venus return for last year, which occured right around the breakup (!) the chart ruler was saturn in the 5th in almost an exact conjunction with lilith! sheesh, talk about a painful, depressing, crappy year. im glad it's almost over, with a new cycle starting for me in march, when i have my venus return for the year, my solar for the year, and my lunar for the month of march all within 5 days, and all the charts look very similar! some good things going in them, too. i cant wait.

anyway, i digress...GREAT thread AJ, and ill try and find more info on lilith...i just KNOW i had some stuff bookmarked on her somewheres...

posted January 23, 2006 01:53 PM              

Yes...I will have to agree that there is a lot of confusing and vague information out there about Lilith. My True Lilith is also in my 4th house-Pisces. Were you able to find answers after you did your research on Lilith?? I have yet to figure out what she does for my 4th...

As for relationships-currently, my Lilith conjuncts my love's ASC. Also interesting to note..his Name asteroid conjuncts my Lilith too!

His Lilith conjuncts my Pars Fortunae and his Lilith conjuncts MY Name asteroid too!! Crazy eh??!!

I was curious as to what had been written about these connections. Lilith is really perplexing to me and I want to find the true power in what she represents. (Positively).

Hi chrissymgreen-Thanks for the information you posted...you always have done great research as well so I will look forward to any additional bookmarks you find!!

posted January 23, 2006 01:57 PM              

There are THREE astronomical points called Lilith. One is the BLACK MOON LILITH, the vortex or empty lunar focal point along the moon's apogee. Another is the DARK MOON LILITH, or the hypothetical second moon in orbit around the earth and one is the asteroid, 1181 LILITH. Each of these astrological points and bodies carry the archetype of Lilith.

For an in depth discussion by Kelley Hunter on the three distinct astrological Liliths, see The Mountain Astrologer magazine . (go to my links page, click the mag and then search the archives)

ASTEROID 1181 LILITH, Dark Moon Lilith and Black Moon Lilith symbolize the energy of LILITH! Some say one is before ‘redemption’ and another after, or one is positive and one negative—but I don’t see it that way. I think this goddess lurks in various corners of the chart in various stages of creative expression—that can erupt, alter and express in the blink of an eye! What I have gathered about asteroid Lilith, I apply to them all—oh Jamma, the astrodienst Lilith in the pull down IS ASTEROID 1181—not dark or black moon. ??? (No, it's not!! see post below!!!) :

Asteroid Lilith orbits between Mars and Jupiter in the main asteroid belt, taking about nine years to complete a cycle. Mythically, Lilith is the "She Demon" of ancient Babylon.She is written of in Isaiah 34:14 as a "screech owl," and is a form of apocalyptic harbinger. Her name means "Night," "Lamb Strangler," "Bone Crusher".

"...her earliest origins in ancient Sumeria (depicts) the handmaiden of the great goddess Innana. It was Lilith who brought the people in from the fields to Innana's holy temple at Erech for the scared sexual rites. She represented an aspect of feminine sexuality that is free, unfettered, instinctive, animating, ecstatic, healing and sacred." Demetra George

Lilith is an entity known by the Babylonians, Sumerians, Hebrews, and early Christians as a daemon of raw, instinctual wisdom, power and sexual autonomy. Her stories are diverse and sometimes terrifying. In all cases, she is unique in her refusal to relinquish her power. As the first wife of Adam, she left the garden and was outcast as a demoness when she wanted to switch positions or make love side by side. Adam had to be on top.

Lilith bows down to no man yet is willing to share her tantric arts with him. In many cases, man violently rejects her, projecting onto her his repressed and demonic fears of dark feminine power. This turns her into an outcast, explosive with rage and bent on retaliation.

Lilith's symbol is like a hand and can be considered a beckon, a salutation, or perhaps a dire warning, depending on how she is approached. What intention do we have in mind when we meet with this dark goddess?

We all have her plutonic quality in us, the unconscious energy that brings up harsh boundaries between life and death, ecstasy and suffering, passion and revulsion, enslavement and freedom. How do we honor Lilith in our lives? Do we exile her from consciousness or build her a sanctuary for potent, creative expression? When she contacts other planets, what is she wanting to express through? She may be all that much more frightening to the “brighter” side of the personality yet by integrating her power and wisdom into our lives, we become more whole, more complete.

Asteroid 1181 Lilith brings up deep and primal sexual energy sometimes accompanied by feelings of anger, rejection and rage. Her theme is power-alluring and irresistible. The question is, in what ways can you find to express the Lilith in you that does not threaten the edifice and construct of your identity? Can you draw her, dance her, write her stories? Have there ever been any relationships in which you have “let her loose”? What happened?

posted January 23, 2006 02:32 PM              

i have had this site bookmarked for quite some time, it looks like you can figure out the other two liliths here:
www.ephemeral.info

youll have to go to TOOLS, and then click on pos -- for list of planet & asteroid positions. i filled out all my birth info, leaving the confusing stuff set to default. i checked use short list for the asteroids, and wa-lah, i find that...

my mean apogee is at 21 virgo
my osc. apogee is at 11 libra (gosh, thats conjunct my ascendant!)

oh, and then i checked asteroid 1181 and i came up with:

lilith - 5 libra

im totally confused because i just checked through astrodienst.com's site, selecting lilith from the pull down menu and also typing in "1181" in the asteroids panel, and lilith then pops up as 5 libra, near my ascendant at 12 libra, so it would appear that the lilith from the pull down menu is NOT asteroid 1181 lilith (as kim suggested, i wonder why she did): the lilith from the pull down menu would appear to be the mean apogee, which is black moon lilith, or BML.

so what the heck is the oscillating apogee...is that dark moon lilith? i have it conjunct my asc by 1°!

totally confused!

sorry guys, i just actually read the whole thread on lilith on asteroid 433 and kim actually corrects herself, she does confirm the the lilith from the pull down menu is BML (or mean apogee) and that you get asteroid 1181 lilith's position by typing in 1181 to the asteroids field.

as for the oscillating apogee, i dont know what that is. i think its a version of bml, figured a different way.

i still dont know how to calculate dark moon lilith.

posted January 23, 2006 03:03 PM              

just wanted to share with you how you can find BML, 1181, AND the oscillating apogee i mentioned before -

on astro.com, go to extended chart selection
check lilith from the pull down menu to get BML
type "1181" under asteroids to get asteroid 1181 lilith, and type in h13 to get that osc. apogee i mentioned, or whatever they call "true" BML...

posted January 23, 2006 03:21 PM              

If it's just lilith... mine is Leo in the 10th house. The 1181 one that was mentioned, is Cancer in the 10th house.

posted January 23, 2006 04:09 PM              

Asteroid #1181 - Lilith, symbol kind of like a hand with a hook tail, can be added to the chart options on astro.com ~ represents split off, demonized aspects of the feminine, the result of long standing cultural projections that percieve feminine roles & attributes as shameful, untrustworthy & dangerous; also issues surrounding motherlessness & adoption/mentoring

Black Moon Lilith - symbol of a crescent moon over a cross, I think the mean value can be added to the chart options on astro.com - there are both the true & mean values for this point, which is not a physical astronomical body, but a mathematical point derived from the positions of both the Earth & Moon ~ the placement of Black Moon Lilith shows the area of our lives where we can be inspired to find a completely new or alternative way to express & define the personal empowerment emanating from our feminie nature ~ indicates where a cycle of destruction & release of old images can result in a renewed sense of personal freedom & power ~ can bestow great rewards if we are willing to pay the painful price of letting go ~ one must make a difficult choice or a sacrifice to overcome the urge to conform ~ has a strong impact on relationship dynamics ~ signifies the emotional intelligence informed by the wisdom of earthly instinct ~ is where we are lured into our more self-centered illusions for the purpose of purging negative desires ~ an energy vortex that cuts through the veils of illusion with the sword of truth

posted January 23, 2006 04:28 PM              

Mean or True?

Like the Moon's nodes, Black Moon Lilith has both Mean and True positions, and the difference between them can be significant, even up to 30 degrees. I understand that most Europeans use the Mean Black Moon. Of course Lilith can be Mean, but I think she is also True. In her True position, she moves very quickly - up to 6¡ per day - and retrogrades often. I will have to do more research before speculating on the meanings of these two positions. Sabian symbols are one way to start. For now, I propose considering a Black Moon corridor, using the section of the zodiac encompassed by the True-Mean section of the chart. For some people Lilith would cover a larger territory, sometimes even expressing through two signs, with transiting planets making a longer passage. Others, with a narrow band of Lilith influence, may have a more focused, intensified experience of her energies.

posted January 23, 2006 04:32 PM              

Ok...in the past, I KNEW I had looked up BML for the asteroid in the drop-down menu. I also re-call the confusion and correction from Kim Falconer's site as well!! Another great forum to learn from!

Lilith (BML) in my 4th makes sense to me....I renovate older homes/real estate...taking them from their ugly neglected state and allow the house's true personality to shine through!! The Ugly Duckling becomes a Swan (remember that children's tale??).

posted January 23, 2006 09:04 PM              

Again warning, it's something that takes time to understand, but here's what I posted over a year ago, and which I place the most faith in. Enjoy! :::

(PS: I cannot guarantee that the links in her excerpts are still active. I'm just pasting it as I originally posted it.)

Here's the ESSENTIAL link to fully understanding this - I BOLDED the most important parts :::

"How to Delineate the 3 Liliths in Your Chart
by Sue Simmons

In doing research on the 3 Liliths for my article, which will be
posted my 3 Liliths site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths, I
have found the following to be the best way to delineate the 3 Liliths
in your chart. This assumes that you have an accurate knowledge of
signs and houses. If you need to brush up on this, see Liz Greene's
book, Astrology for Lovers, which is in print and Michael Lutin's Made
in Heaven, which is available from his website, http://www.michaellutin.com/aneworderform.htm
You will also need to have The Book of Rulerships by Rex Bills handy.

If you are trying to figure out what the 3 Liliths mean in someone
else's chart you will need to ask them lots of questions. Don't
assume anything without asking the questions. The questions you need
to ask come from everything the house stands for and everything the
sign stands for. There will be really significant problems in these
area, so ask about what they can't do, hate to do, have problems with,
etc. There are no positives here.

If you read my 3 Lilith Info on my yahoo site first, a lot of your
questions will be answered. I am assuming you have done that. First
go to the Swiss Ephemeris and find your true Black Moon Lilith (exact
directions in my 3 Liliths Info). Be sure to look at the "osc",
that's the true. The mean will be right above it, and will say mean.
If there is a - sign on the line where the osc placement is then your
BML is Rx. If there is no - sign, your BML is direct. Don't worry
about the mean. It works until you start using the true but the true
works much better.

Let's suppose you have true BML at 01Libra11 in the 9th house within
2 deg of the MC, and that the 9th house also contains Pluto. In order
to figure out what the BML adds to this, you first have to figure out
what the Pluto in Leo in the 9th means, then see how having BML there
makes a difference. I find Jeff Green's Pluto vol.1 extremely good
for what Pluto in the 9th and in Leo means so if you read that, then
you can think about how the BML adds something difficult (BML is
always difficult) to it. Belief system, legal matters and in-laws are
9th house, as is the second wife, 3rd child and 4th sibling so if you
have any of those think about them too.

If Pluto in Leo and BML in Libra are both in the 9th, then you know
Virgo must be intercepted there, so take that into consideration too.
The latest thinking is that intercepted signs represent something you
refused to do in a prior lifetime and must do this time. I have found
people extremely resistant to doing or thinking about doing whatever
their interception represents according to the houses and signs
involved and it seems to be a part of themselves they don't like and
don't want to look at.

I have also noticed that people with Virgo-Pisces intercepted in the
9-3 houses with Sag ASC have some difficulty with driving or sense of
direction. They either learn to drive much later than their peers,
are afraid to drive, are terrible drivers, or have a poor sense of
direction. The BML in the 9th may make it worse or it may signify
disastrous relationships with the in-laws or second marriage
partner. Legal issues are probably something to avoid. Ask a lot of
questions and it will soon become clear what the BML adds to the mix.

Next, since it is within 2 deg of the MC you need to explore how this
affects all 10th house matters such as career (difficulty knowing
what work you really want to do? many job changes? underpaid because
doing volunteer work or working for a family member? working off and
on? illness interfering with work? someone else controlling the
kind of work you do? problems with the boss?), reputation (any
scandals, gossip?), mother issues, etc., If there are any planets in
the 10th delineate them first and then see how BML makes it worse.
If there are no difficulties in the career then consider that the
time may be off by a few minutes. The orb of BML is only 3 degrees.

After you figure out how it affecting the 9th house, then you go to
the sign. It's easier for me that way, anyway. So you think about
all the Libra issues there are and then figure out how they are harder
for you than they would be ordinarily if you didn't consider it. With
Libra and 9th house both there I would expect legal issues. Also ask
about partnership issues, both business and personal, kidney
problems, etc. Look in Rex Bill's Book of Rulerships to make sure
you haven't missed anything. The more you ask about the more you
will see how it works.

Let's assume Venus is opp. BML at 4 Aries 41 and you assume that would
mean trouble with women. Don't assume anything. First, it is outside
the orb that seems to work. Second, no one really knows what this
opposition means. Anyone who says they do is just guessing because
most astrologers use the mean position which has been around a lot
longer. To really work, Venus would have to be in opposition to the
true and within a 3 degree orb. To see whether it works, think about
all the 3rd house issues, such as siblings, neighbors, cars, short-
distance travel, etc. and see whether the BML is putting a damper on
any of those. That is, is the Venus not working there as you would
assume it would? To know this you need to take into account other
apects to the Venus and the placement of the ruler. Second, think
about your Venus as representing your feelings, what you love (in the
3rd, communicating with others), women (combined with the Moon
placement), your earnings, and think about whether the BML makes
these areas of your life worse than you would ordinarily expect
considering the aspects to Venus and it's ruler.

An important thing to remember with Black Moon Lilith is that we are
not dealing with a planet or other body but a point in the Moon's
orbit. So you don't treat it like a planet. You can't consider
aspects as you would a planet. So there doesn't seem to be any
meaning to trines, squares, etc. I have found conjunctions within 3
deg to have some significance and I would consider an opposition if
it was exact or within 1-2 deg but that's it, I have not found other
aspects to work. Of course I am speaking of the true position. Mean
appears to work but once you start looking at the true it is obvious
the mean worked only because it is usually in the same house and
sign. When the mean and true are in a different house and sign,
that's where you can really see the difference.

If the true BML is Rx and the person has done past life regression
work, you can think of the house and sign and ask about past lives
that involve the house and sign. So in this case, were there past
lives with the 2nd wife, 3rd child, in-laws or was there a past life
where the belief system was too rigid or the person was killed for
their beliefs, etc. Or problems with the legal system, such as being
convicted for something you didn't do, or being a judge where you
sentenced an innocent person to death, etc. The Rx BML house and
sign will describe an important past life.

Now let's look at asteroid Lilith. Assume asteroid Lilith is at
10Scorpio23 Rx in the 11th in Scorpio with Saturn at 8 Scorpio.
There will be problems with the AQ issues, and with Saturn there,
probably every AQ issue you can think of. Liz Greene's book on
Saturn is excellent on what Saturn in the 11th and in Scorpio mean,
You need to get that clear so you can distinguish between the effects
of Saturn from the effects of asteroid Lilith. Basically, it makes
things worse. You need to think about all AQ issues, such as
circulation, central nervous system, unexpected events, bureaucratic
nightmares, groups, organizations, friends, hopes dreams and wishes,
etc. For aspects to asteroid Lilith look at Martha Lang-Wescott's
book, Mechanics of the Future: Asteroids. It is terrific.

For asteroids, the usual practice is conjunctions and oppositions only
with a 1 deg orb but I find up to 3 deg works, but not a minute over 3
deg. When the asteroid is exact or within 1 deg the conjunction and
opposition work well, at 2 deg. the influence is less and at 3 deg it
is very weak. Beyond that it doesn't work.

Now let's look at Dark Moon Lilith, which is in Sag in the first
house 3 deg from your Mars, which is conj. the ASC. Think about all
first house issues, especially body and head because the 1st house
represents body and the 6th house healt . So the ruler of the ASC
will represent any major physical problems that will come up. Any
you don't see there you will find in the 6th or in the ruler of the
6th. Since the DML is in Sag, ask about hip or thigh problems or
incurable conditions. In addition, think about Mars problems, such
as muscle problems, chronic fatigue syndrome, arthritis, etc., or
anything that impedes movement or action, including fear of
confrontation, fear of expressing anger, experiences of having been
in physical danger, etc. Check Rex Bill's Book of Rulerships to be
sure you haven't missed anything. When you are looking at the
meaning of the sign be sure to consider the pitfalls of the sign in
general. For example, since the Mars and DML are in Sag there will
probably be a problem with being impatient with details and forming
opinions and beliefs too quickly without a good foundation for them.
And since the DML is in Sag, it emphasizes the problems BML creates
in the 9th house.

You can use Delphine Jay's definitions for DML, but not her
calculations (details on books about Dark Moon Lilith are in the 3
Liliths Info). The correct Dark Moon Lilith calculations from
astronomer Dr. Georges Waltemath are found in Solar Fire and Riyal
(For Riyal, see 3 Liliths Info under Freeware). Most programs use
the Sepharial calculations, which are erroneous. With Dark Moon
Lilith I find that exact or within 1-2 deg works well with conj. and
opp. Delphine Jay uses other aspects but always emphasizes "exact or
in close aspect" for the orb.

So that is how I approach looking at all 3 Liliths in a chart. It
takes time and you have to take everything one step at a time and
really give it some thought but it's worth it. If you have any
feedback or questions on what I have written please feel free to
e-mail me.

Sue Simmons
sueastro@e...

Lilith

- by Sue Simmons

There are 3 astrological points with the name Lilith: asteroid Lilith, Black Moon Lilith and Dark Moon Lilith. They are all called Lilith because the way you interpret them in a chart is related to the Lilith story.

Probably the earliest version of Lilith is from Mesopotamia in the 13 -15th centuries BC where she was the Goddess of Death in the form of an owl. She was called Lilith because it means "screech owl". The version of Lilith we know today is as the first wife of Adam, before Eve, although she is not mentioned in the Bible or in ancient Hebrew religious writings. This version seems to come from a medieval writing that purports to be part of Hebrew writings but is not. The writer probably took the older legend and Christianized it by making it part of a Bible story. Lilith became the woman from hell, the anti-female.

There are many versions and interpretations of her story. As the first wife of Adam she refused to be subordinate to him. She refused to lie beneath him in sexual relations. She wanted to lie side by side or on top. When he tried to force her she used her powers to fly away. This part of her story has interested many women today . They like to think of Lilith as a feminist heroine, saying she was courageous and asserting her equality. However, in the original story she was more a symbol of the psychologically damaged. If you interpret the Liliths in a chart as heroic or admirable it will not be accurate. The Liliths in your chart operate as places where you are having trouble, where you don't fit in with the norm.

After Adam refused to have her as his wife, she ran off and mated with many demons, which was strictly against God's will. God sent 3 angels to her to get her to stop but she didn't obey so He started killing her children at the rate of 100 per day. She went mad with grief and started killing other people's children. Painful issues surrounding children, birth, unsuitable sexual partners and parts of your life where you just can't function like others do are Lilith issues.

Asteroid Lilith

The glyph for asteroid Lilith is a straight horizontal line with 4 small vertical lines sticking up from it , sort of like an upturned rake head, and on the right below the horizontal line is a very small mark like a capital L or V. Some say it is an upturned hand which could be either rejecting or expecting something different. It takes about 5 years for Lilith to travel through all 12 signs, since it does retrograde a lot. It orbits the Sun in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. The asteroid Lilith has to do with all aspects of difficult sexual relationships.

Black Moon Lilith

Black Moon Lilith is the astrologer's term for the lunar apogee. Since the Moon has an elliptical (oval) orbit and a wobbly one at that, the distance the Moon is from the Earth varies. The lunar apogee is the mathematical point in the sky where the Moon is farthest from the Earth. The reason this point is called Lilith is because in the Lilith story she was acting out the difficult (distant) part of the Moon, in murderous rage, vindictiveness, and insanity. The glyph for Black Moon Lilith is a black crescent pointing east, similar to a 3rd quarter Moon, but with a cross underneath.

Black Moon Lilith can be calculated as mean or true, similar to the way the Moon's nodes are calculated as mean or true. But in the case of the Black Moon there can be as much as 30 degrees difference between the mean and true so it is possible for them to be in different signs or houses. Deciding which to use is easier if you look at charts of people you know where the mean and true are in different signs and houses. The true is the more accurate placement but an ephemeris for it has only been available for about 10 years so not as much work has been done using it. The ephemeris for the mean has been available for about 100 years and astrologers in Europe have been using it almost that long. That's why you see the mean used more in articles and books.

The mean moves about 39 degrees per year or about 3 deg 8 min per month and does not retrograde. The true Black Moon retrogrades a lot and can move anywhere from 9 deg to well over 70 deg per year. It also can move up to 4 deg per day or stay at the same degree for several days so it is important to get an accurate placement for the true. An ephemeris in a book is fine for mean but not for the true. You can get the true in Win*Star software, Halloran software, or Riyal freeware or you can use the Swiss Ephemeris online to get both true and mean. Directions for using the Swiss Ephemeris to find Black Moon Lilith are at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths Click on 3 Liliths Info, then scroll down to the Black Moon section. It takes about 9 years for the mean or true to pass through all 12 signs.

Dark Moon Lilith

Unlike Black Moon Lilith, Dark Moon Lilith is a real body in the sky, a second Moon to the Earth that doesn't reflect light, hence the name Dark Moon. The glyph for Dark Moon Lilith is a zero with a forward slash running diagonally through it. There is some controversy over whether it is really there since it can only be seen as a spot moving across the Sun. However, there have been sightings since the 1600's as detailed in Delphine Jay's book, Interpreting Lilith, pg. 1-6. Dr. Georges Waltemath, an astronomer, documented it in 1898 and came up with calculations which gave it an orbit of 119 days around the Earth.

The astrologer Sepharial used the Waltemath calculations to come up with an ephemeris but he made errors which caused a difference of anywhere from about 2 to over 40 degrees. Delphine Jay, Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson, Mae Ludlum-Wilson and others copied Sepharial's calculations. The original Waltemath calculations can be found in Solar Fire software or Riyal freeware. Many astrologers use the Sepharial calculations with success, but the Waltemath calculations are more accurate. Dark Moon Lilith can be interpreted similarly to the other Liliths. Delphine Jay says Dark Moon Lilith is a place where you must operate impersonally because operating personally there will never be successful.

Further information on all 3 Liliths can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths/

Sue Simmons"