posted December 14, 2006 07:56 PM              

Ive wasted my time and had my share of LOSERS...I used to feel sorry for guys like that and thought I could help them...but that idea always back fired with the guy's insecurities popping up again Guys like that will never change.

posted December 15, 2006 07:21 PM              

Zala, i was looking up books by liz greene today, but there seem to be so many of them... which one wud u recommend for a first read? (perhaps the most general or basic one out of the lot....)

posted December 16, 2006 04:37 PM            

I was thinking about your question, and haven't come up with a Best First Liz
The first one I read was her Saturn book. Probably a good general read (which is tough to find since she seems to specialize on a particular subject in each book) would be "Astrology for Lovers", or "New Insights in Modern Astrology", or "Relating: An Astrological Guide to Living With Others on A Small Planet", or "The Astrology of Fate". I've been reading "Apollo's Chariot: the Meaning of the Astrological Sun" and I have "Barriers and Boundaries: the Horoscope and the Defences of the Personality" on deck.....

Another author I like a lot is Bil Tierney.

posted December 16, 2006 05:01 PM            

quote:

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Personally, I am of the opinion that placements of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are generational aspects. And I find it hard to imagine that people of my generation born with Saturn in Libra, will all be disappointed in love. (and that others will not! ) I think that the influence is rather weak, and matters more when taken in combination with some other influences (for eg, saturn in libra squaring moon in cappy might not be as bad as a sq from saturn in aries). On the other hand, when one looks at the placements of Saturn in the houses, now that can be different for 2 people born on the same day.
I read somewhere, that the Ascendant is one of the most important choices that the soul exercises, when it decides its moment of entry into the physical world. And the more I thought about it, more it made sense to me. Why did I choose to be born at precisely the time I was, when a couple of hours wont make a drastic difference to my chart in terms of the planetary positions. There has to be a reason. (yeah, i believe that everything happens for a reason).
So what are your thoughts on this? you are the teacher here....is my progress satisfactory?

---

Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are definitely generational (Transpersonal) planets – but Saturn not so much so. Saturn is the bridge, the gatekeeper, between the Personal and Transpersonal planets (I'll see if I can scare up that pic of Liz's illustrating that). And it’s the same for me – certainly not everyone in my generation with Saturn in Libra has been disappointed in Love!! Other aspects in the natal chart, and to Saturn, are the potential for “difficulties” – I look on Saturn (as well as all the others) as my teachers – Jeff Green had a wonderful quote about that in his Pluto book. What I learn from my teachers is entirely up to me, and how open I will be to altering or enhancing my opinions/beliefs when I’m exposed to deeper nuances, alternative meanings. I do need that transiting planetary boot in the a$$ from time to time to get busy on lessons I’ve been procrastinating on

Re: your comment about choosing your Ascendent – I’ve been paying a lot more attention to The Cross of Matter lately, and looking for material on aspects to the Angles and to the sensitive Points, such as NN and Vertex. I think these get pushed out of the way sometimes in favor of the planetary/mythological dignities.

Have you spent a couple days prowling around the Horoscopeschat site yet??
http://groups.msn.com/HOROSCOPESCHAT/planets5.msnw
Or investigated Dane Rudhyar’s archive??
http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/
http://www.karmastrology.com/ast_rudh.shtml

posted December 16, 2006 07:26 PM            

I was reading about the Cross of Matter this afternoon, and wouldn't you know Synchronicity would strike . I did a tarot spread, and I thought it was appropos that I drew the Ace of Disks (Crowley's Thoth deck) -- interp follows:

Key words: Inner and outer richness; great success; unification of the body and soul, material and spirit, heaven and earth; wholeness

The symbols of this card are arranged in the form of a cross representing the integration of the vertical and horizontal, the inner and the outer.

Body and soul, too long set at odds, meet now in harmonic union. Now the body can be treated as the living temple of the soul. The more deeply we are grounded in our bodies, the fewer difficulties will arise during this integration process. The deeper our roots reach into the earth, the higher the soul will be able to soar.

posted December 16, 2006 08:22 PM              

once again you have given me a lot of food for thought. You know, it is strange...I always need some new cud to chew on. I was pretty restless for the last 2 days or so, waiting for your reply. To point me towards something else that i can swallow...you r my teacher in the gathering of knowledge

The links on Dane Rudyar r valuable. They will keep me busy for some time. I have been to that website before, but was a newbie then. So didn't understand much. I also didnt come across the msn link before. Mostly because i didn't hv an msn account (i just opened one ). The group is pretty interesting.

posted December 16, 2006 11:23 PM              

quote:

---

Saturn is the bridge, the gatekeeper, between the Personal and Transpersonal planets....I look on Saturn (as well as all the others) as my teachers – Jeff Green had a wonderful quote about that in his Pluto book. What I learn from my teachers is entirely up to me, and how open I will be to altering or enhancing my opinions/beliefs when I’m exposed to deeper nuances, alternative meanings. I do need that transiting planetary boot in the a$$ from time to time to get busy on lessons I’ve been procrastinating on

---

So far i have noticed a direct relation between saturn transits to my AC, NN, vertex etc and the important turning points in my life. And i have come to regard it as almost a mentor myself. i am not sure i understand the rest of the planets as yet. but i think i hv developed a feeling for saturn now. it seems to be in keeping with wht u said abt it being the door keeper to the outer planets, which rule the universal consciousness. my point was exactly tht saturn does not directly show up in people's personality etc. but tht it is deeply connected to their subconsious/personal unconscious, i can readily believe.

The outer planets i am still grappling with. and my ease of relating to them seems inversely proportional to their distance so uranus i can still have a feeling for, even neptune to some extent, pluto is really hard for me to understand.

I think i'll start with 'Astrology for Lovers', because anything to do with love hooks me instantly I am just waiting to get some free time so tht i can soak myself into astrology!

ILWL

posted December 19, 2006 04:58 AM              

thanks for scanning the picture for me. you know what i am surveying all of liz's books on amazon. u can read the first few pages and get an idea abt the book. i think i want to read her 'denser' books first. also went to a book store to check out her books. but they had only astrology for lovers, which didnt really seem like a liz book. may be becoz it wasnt all tht challenging to read, which is wht i have come to expect of her!

abt the Grand Cross of Matter: does tht refer to the asc, ic, dc, and mc??

ILWL

posted December 19, 2006 09:05 AM            

quote:

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abt the Grand Cross of Matter: does tht refer to the asc, ic, dc, and mc??

---

Say, do you have Adobe Acrobat/Reader?? I'm going to use this thread to put up some links to Liz's "denser" stuff in pdf.format.....

posted December 19, 2006 02:06 PM            

Here's an article by another of us Saturn-in-the-Thirders (from TMA)

Making Peace With Saturn:
The Mountain Astrologer - article by Jan deProsse

Have scanned "Relating" in its entirety. the other chapters are too big to upload here at work and I'll have to use my ftp at home to put them at my site. When you open the links below, use your toolbar button or Click View and Rotate counterclockwise (be patient while the megabytes flip ) -- I wasn't able to scan them portrait.....

Introduction:
Intro and Table of Contents

posted December 19, 2006 03:23 PM              

tht article was really nice!! hey tell me, is this running away from responsibility thing common to saturn-in-3rd-er's, or is it sth else tht makes me like tht? gosh, i'm like tht too....i am really reluctant to buy a car bcoz of all tht 'hassle'...insurance, loans etc etc....and dont think i wanna ever buy a house either!! it sounds very 'settled down', and i'm not sure i want tht! (and i am supposedly a serious, responsible cappy!! )

wooooo...u hv almost all of liz scanned!! how did u ever do tht!! gosh, u have some patience! and r u telling me i need not buy all of them? to tell u the truth, i dont like to buy books unless i am 100% sure i need them for life!....then i buy them even if i hv read it twice already....but otherwise, i prefer e-books....i hv this way of clinging to every small bit i own....can u imagine i dont even throw away old clothes/shoes bcoz wht if i feel like wearing them SOME DAY!! and whn the time comes to move, u can imagine wht a pain it is!

so ebook lover tht i am, i hv adobe, and perfectly comfortable with it....dont worry.

posted December 19, 2006 04:13 PM              

and i am really happy to know tht he did find the love of his life. i know saturn does have his rewards, but still it feels good to know of an example

posted December 19, 2006 06:11 PM            

Here’s Bil Tierney from “Twelve Faces of Saturn – Your Guardian Angel Planet” (**show of hands, please – who believes that guardian angel stuff?!?**)
Contents
In the Modes and Elements
Sign, House, Types, and Transits
Saturn in Libra
Saturn in the 3rd
Saturn’s Other Faces, Conclusion

posted December 20, 2006 05:56 PM            

Thanks for posting the links and excerpts, 'Zala.
Great stuff!

posted December 20, 2006 11:05 PM            

I couldn't help butting in over in FFA -- liked what you wrote.....

I'm sure you noted Liz's Saturn in the Earthy Signs/Houses waaaaayyyy above here -- can't remember if I ever posted all of Liz's elements, think I just did it on request for a few of the Saturn signs. Your Virgo/6th is already up here, so this weekend I'll put up your Saturn in Water/Eighth.....

ILWL ~

I've got the other 8 chapters of "Relating" scanned but still need to finish uploading and one of them bombed out so I need to rescan. After this, we'll start on Erin Sullivan's "Saturn in Transit" -- you up for more Guardian Angel stuff?!? Say 'when!', and we can take a break from Saturn and work on a more gentle and enjoyable planet..... like..... Uranus??

posted December 20, 2006 11:37 PM              

i am waiting with bated breath for more on my guardian angel....can't get enuf of it

ILWL

btw, Bill Tierney writes just like i wud, had i written a book on saturn....
And guess wht, i saw saturn in libra/7th in action today. I was talking to this friend, who seems to hv all the men lined up for her, but she doesn't love any of them. so within a month of her being single, out of the multitudes someone wud propose to her and she wud be going around with him. till they break up. and the cycle repeats itself.

Today yet another guy proposed marriage to her, no less. AND SHE AGREED!! I was so shocked! she hardly knows the guy.a few months back he used to kinda stalk her. now suddenly she is marrying him. she wud say tht he is good looking and stupid in the same breath. so she neither loves nor respects tht guy. i asked her why then r u marrying him? and her answer: because he is not a control freak like the earlier one and is less stupid than most other guys. goshhhh!!!

so then i cudn't contain myself any more...and asked her for her birthdata. i was wondering why she is so cynical abt love. almost as if she is afraid of it. i thought may be she has a venus sq saturn or something. and then i see tht she has saturn in libra in the 7th house!!!

posted December 20, 2006 11:55 PM            

Thank you for spelling "bated" correctly
I think I have Bil Tierney on surviving Neptune copied, just need to scan. What did you think of Liz's Neptune in the 5th on the 1st page of this thread?? That Neptune book of hers is a tough slog -- I can't read very much of it at a time, I just get too disoriented -- my Pisces Moon just wants to go swimming off into the Great Collective Unconscious ocean with Neptune -- and Saturn and Merc are jumping up and down on the shoreline shaking their fists and yelling "get back here!!"

Speaking of Pluto, have you read this thread?
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008745.html

I gotta crash -- days/nights way too busy this week.....
Z

posted December 21, 2006 12:04 AM              

quote:

---

Neptune book of hers is a tough slog -- I can't read very much of it at a time, I just get too disoriented -- my Moon just wants to go swimming off into the great unconscious collective ocean with Neptune -- and Saturn and Merc are jumping up and down on the shoreline shaking their fists and yelling "get back here!!"

---

posted December 21, 2006 12:09 AM            

I'll see what I can get scanned/uploaded at lunchtime tomorrow.

Z

PS edit: That was an interesting story about your Saturn/7th friend -- will have to reread it tomorrow when my eyes are all the way open

posted December 21, 2006 12:26 AM              

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'Virgo Ascendant, Libra Moon, Aries Sun'