posted December 21, 2006 12:26 AM              

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'Virgo Ascendant, Libra Moon, Aries Sun'

posted December 21, 2006 12:27 AM            

Hiya!

>I couldn't help butting in over in FFA -- liked what you wrote.....

> I'm sure you noted Liz's Saturn in the Earthy Signs/Houses waaaaayyyy above here --

Caught it. Very cool. Sounds like me.

> can't remember if I ever posted all of Liz's elements, think I just did it on request for a few of the Saturn signs. Your Virgo/6th is already up here, so this weekend I'll put up your Saturn in Water/Eighth.....

Awesome, although I'm a little afraid of what she has to say about Saturn in the 8th. Oi vey!, dont get me started! Its a rude contrast to my 7th house Jupiter. I am so optimistic and forward in the beginning of a one-one-one relationship, but then I have serious difficulty with deeper intimacy. The closer I allow someone to get, the more critical of them I become (cue: Bette Midler's "At A Distance", lol). Maybe everyone is this way, but i know its been a theme for me. It kills my relationships. I'm sure it has something to do with Pluto in Libra squaring my descendant.

What do you think about what Liz says about Libra, not Virgo, being the true perfectionist of the Zodiac?

HSC

posted December 21, 2006 01:50 AM              

ya u knw i was in a job back in india, and i used to just hate the 9 to 6 thing. cudnt take it for more than a year, and landed here as a grad student. now, altho i am still bound to show up in my lab some time during the day, its not as killing. anytime during 9-11 is fine. i do try to make up for it by staying thr late, tho.

I'll start a thread on pluto, and bump up tht one on neptune.

About neptune- My whole problem with neptune is, tht i don't know what to make of it!! now i realize tht's a very neptune thing to say, but its the truth Its a singleton in my chart...the only planet in a fire house...and with only one aspect, tht too pluto, which is a generational one.

anyways...so as a child, u cud say i lived in the "imaginal realm"....daydreaming was so rampant tht sometimes at school i used to get caught with tht far away look in my eyes, and worse still, probably a smile on my face. one teacher in particular seemed to hv a lot of problems with my not 'paying attention'. but anyways, i cud manage to wriggle out of it bcoz i did listen to her, just tht a part of my mind was busy weaving another story. now the tendency is reduced to a large extent, tho i can still catch myself in an imaginary situation. it happens whenever i hv nothing much to do.

apart from tht, i hv observed every single one of the tendencies in myself that liz talks about in varying degrees at some point of time. i hv certainly imagined myself in all of the situations described there(and many more.... ) with me being the martyr, and an equal number where everything turns out all right in the end. well, actually, most of the times in my stories everything is right in the end. its just tht without a few twists and turns they wudnt be all tht interesting, wud they? and the whole point is to make them as dramatic as possible!

Creativity is important for me. And so is spirituality. Well basically i love beauty in all its forms. for me all of them are tied together. I see a breathtakingly beautiful flower, am overcome by its delicacy, its vibrant colors, its perfection, and immediately want to capture that moment somehow. most of the times i can't, of course. i am overawed at such moments, and feel close to God. i'd much rather sit in a peaceful place with greenery all round, rather than visit a temple/church. One of my all time favorite poems is 'Daffodils', by Wordsworth. Also 'Miracles', by Walt Whitman. I like beautiful poems, rather than the dark, disturbing types which seem to be so popular these days.

sigh! so i guess tht's how neptune plays out in my personality. the disturbing thing is, tht i dont know how much i idealize things. or how much i see things thru tinted lenses. i am certainly a lot more idealistic than most ppl i meet, but hopefully it is grounded in reality.

posted December 21, 2006 02:45 AM              

Wow, i read the post on December 21, 2006!! wht a coincidence!!

Altho i am not sure i understood all of it. but from what i have understood, it has given me another reason to be jealous of saggi's

I have this friend, who has moon,jupiter, uranus, neptune, and asc, all in Sag. (the same guy i 'got over' a few days back ). And he seems to get all this wisdom so effortlessly. all the life's lessons that i hv had to learn the hard way, he seems to know 'de novo'. gosh i feel so j of him!!

My 6th house cusp is at 26Sag36. i wonder if tht means anything

ILWL

posted December 21, 2006 10:58 AM              

And HD is back with liz greene on pluto on the thread

ILWL

posted December 21, 2006 01:43 PM            

Wanted to put up Chapter 2 "The Planetary Map of Individual Potential" from Liz’s “Relating” but it’s snafu’d, I cannot get it uploaded from here at work (internal server error). It’s the BEST chapter!! I’ll probably type out portions of it anyway, to plug into threads with topics like: “Please look at this chart, is this my soulmate?” or “We have (blank) square/opp (blank) – is our relationship doomed?”
….. So let’s continue on, will try uploading that one again at home tonite, as well as the Conclusion which is also giving me an internal server error along with internal heartburn ~

The Psychological Types
Beauty and the Beast
The Inner Partner
Sex Life of the Psyche
Honor Thy Father and Mother
The Infallible Inner Clock
Relating in the Aquarian Age

posted December 22, 2006 01:24 AM              

I read the first chapter of Relating- the Language of the Unconscious. man these require a lot of focus! (and imagination)....and i looove it i hv to go to wikipedia every time Liz drops a new name....and get sidetracked....by the time i come back everything tht Liz said is wiped off and i hv to start 1-2 pages back....but its fun i can feel my mind expanding to accommodate this deluge of information

posted December 22, 2006 01:22 PM            

From Erin Sullivan's "Saturn in Transit - Boundaries of Mind, Body, and Soul" ~
Intro

(having troubles uploading portions again, but will plunk the rest in here later)..... so here's half of them:
Natural Cycles – Birth to 7
Natural Cycles - 7 to 14
Natural Cycles - 14 to 21
Natural Cycles – 22 to 29
Natural Cycles – 29 to 36
Natural Cycles – 37 to 44
Natural Cycles – 45 to 52
Natural Cycles – 52 to 59
Natural Cycles – 59 Onwards
The Heroic Round – Heroism

Z

posted December 23, 2006 11:53 PM            

The Planetary Map of Individual Potential
Conclusion and Bibliography

posted December 24, 2006 12:17 AM            

The following is from Liz Greene’s “Saturn – A New Look At an Old Devil”:

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Saturn in Scorpio and the eighth house

The symbolic progression of man's evolution from Aries to Pisces has been described in many sources. There is a similar progression within the three signs belonging to one element, and here the progression represents the stages of development in that particular sphere of consciousness. The first sign or house belonging to that element is generally the clearest and most direct in meaning and relates to the development of the individual personality and its integration. The second sign of that element denotes a point of crisis for here the individual must take his own experience and integrate it into the group of which he is a part. This is rarely done without struggle, for this too is an expansion of consciousness from the personal to the universal. The third and last sign or house refers to the larger unit of the group and infers the final purpose of the particular level of consciousness symbolised by that element.

The watery signs and houses do not contradict this. In the fourth house a man is first subjected as an isolated unit to emotional forces and pressures from the environment which shape his future growth as a personality. He has the opportunity of building a base within himself so that the projection into circumstance is withdrawn and inner security on the feeling level becomes a permanent possession of his character. In the eighth house, the man must take his feeling nature as a channel of expression and contact and begin to function in personal relationships with others. The flow of feeling is now between him and another. Finally, in the twelfth house he has the opportunity of taking the wisdom he has acquired from his experiences and offering it to the group in service for the group development. He is no longer an isolated unit but part of a larger evolving life. This is a helpful way of viewing things which is useful to remember in considering Saturn in the eighth house for this house is probably the most misunderstood and maligned of all the houses in the horoscope.

This house is primarily described as either the house of physical death—which suggests that it has no value or activity outside that brief moment when we take leave of the physical sheath—or as "money received from others", a description which is an insult to the complexity and power of the sign and planet associated with the house. Both interpretations are valid as far as they go, but they do not help in an understanding of Saturn placed in the eighth beyond the reading of a death in old age and the denial of inheritance; and both of these readings are frequently mistaken. The interchange of finances between two people in partnership may be one of the by-products of the house, but it is only when the meaning of money as a symbol of emotional values is understood that the more complex meaning of "money received from others" becomes clear. Death itself does indeed come under this house, but there are many kinds of death, and most of them are not physical; and every death is followed inevitably by a rebirth because it is only the form, and not the life which inherits the form, that dies.

As a watery house, the eighth deals primarily with emotional exchange. As opposite from the second house, that which has physical value and meaning and which constitutes stability and self-sustenance becomes that which has emotional value and which constitutes stability of feeling. It is in the eighth sign, Scorpio, that we may find a clue to the significance of this house in matters of sex, emotional crises, and the death and rebirth of the instincts as purified desire.

This is primarily a house of crisis and refers to those points in life where the emotional ties to others force a man to the realisation of some vital area of his own feeling nature which must be recognised, examined, and purified. Here money becomes a symbol of emotional dependence or freedom, for in our society it buys freedom or bondage in marriage, and our sexual values are largely coloured by our finances. So often in the eighth house there exists the enactment of a struggle which appears purely material and which is really emotional in origin. It is no wonder that Freud attributed such significance to money in dreams and why psychology continues to recognise the relationship between monetary and emotional generosity or tightness.

It is common to find the individual with afflicted planets here tied to a difficult financial situation following upon a broken marriage or to chronic problems with partners who take advantage of him financially. This is particularly characteristic of an eighth house Saturn. When investigated, it will often be found that on the sexual and emotional levels there was difficulty in expression, and there is no sweeter revenge for many people than to air their disappointment and frustration in the face of an unresponsive Saturnian partner through material demands.

The area into which this discussion takes us is a prickly one, and this is usual for Scorpio and the eighth house; however, although the previous statement may seem inordinately hard, it is ironic that in our society the prostitute, who is at least honest about the wares she sells, is despised and generally ends up in jail, while the wife who fundamentally plays the same role and buys her security with her body is glorified because society condones this mask. There are a great many women who trade their sexual favours for a legal tie which promises them financial security and a great many men who buy these favours in exchange for what have been euphemistically termed "a husband's rights".

There is much rubble which must be dug through where our present attitudes toward sex in relation to money are concerned for we are still following the feudal concepts of family financial structure. In spite of the efforts of more enlightened souls, it will take another generation before we can begin to understand that the real nature of sex has nothing to do with the physical world at all but is the reflection of emotional and mental energies—which are in turn the reflection of still more complex energies. Money and sex are still too complex for the average man to understand except in a literal way, and consequently, we have a tremendous amount of confusion to wade through before the alchemical union of two people into one is understood.

The three watery houses and signs represent three aspects of the feeling nature of man. The fourth house symbolises the nurturing forces which shape his early life. The eighth symbolises the creative and procreative forces which he wields and through which he contacts others. The twelfth symbolises the dissipating forces which eventually break down his sense of separateness and release him into group life.

The eighth house is a battleground, the primary purpose of which is self-understanding and self-mastery through constant crises. There is no greater battleground or stimulus to crisis than the energies which are released through the apparently wholly physical act of sex. The union which occurs on the level of the feeling nature produces a flow of energy which takes a man, for a brief moment, "out of himself” – it is virtually the only time that he can feel himself to be at one with another human being. It is this intimate emotional oneness to which the sexual aspect of the eighth house refers; there is a death of the individual awareness and the birth of a mutual awareness for which reason the Elizabethans called the sexual act "the little death" [le petit mort]. Unfortunately there are many people who are as frightened of the apparent emotional vulnerability inherent in this as they are of death itself. What they do not recognise is that the union takes place whether it is recognised or not, and on the feeling level it is not possible to totally shut out the partner; it is only possible to believe that he has been shut out.

To consider this point of view is to recognise the real responsibility involved in a sexual union. This has nothing to do with morality. We have had many centuries of moral teachings which have done absolutely nothing to help us understand the real nature of the mystery. The currents of this great creative force or "serpent power"—whose cousins we may see as the serpent in the garden, the ourobouros of alchemy, and the plumed serpent of the Aztecs—may be released in other ways, but these belong to the sphere of the occultist and the magician, and the average individual knows only one—physical sex. Once set in motion, these currents bind and alter both souls involved. All states of consciousness which involve the "death" of the personality—ranging from those induced by drugs to certain kinds of religious ecstasy and trances of varying sorts—come under the rulership of the eighth house for they all refer to this same energy which can separate the self from its vehicles. Physical death is only the last in a series of deaths which begin with birth.

We understand very little about both sex and death at the present time, and this ignorance is more than slightly owed to the confusion of the Piscean era with its pronouncement of sex as evil and of death as the gateway to neverending heaven or hell. This kind of conditioning runs deep, as it has been with us for two thousand years, and even the more liberal-minded and scientifically inclined have the same collective heritage of fear, superstition, and fascination about this area of human experience. The individual with Saturn in the eighth house has a double burden on his hands for he must not only come to terms with Saturn—who is evasive enough on his own—but he must also be willing to make the descent into Pluto's realm if he is to find the treasure hard to attain. It may be said, however, and with no attempt at poetry, that the person who accomplishes this possesses the key to his own immortality.

In a great many cases with Saturn in Scorpio or in the eighth house, the individual's fears or feelings of inadequacy are in the area of sexual expression. This is undoubtedly a symbol for an even deeper fear; but here the symbol is powerful enough in its own right to create great pain in the person's life. The average man who has to deal with this situation will not, however, take kindly to being told this fact bluntly by an astrological consultant. People are as prickly about sex now, when it comes to overt discussion, as they were during Victoria's time. Moreover the man's inadequacy is not a physical one but rather an emotional one; this is a watery, not an earthy, house. Saturn in the eighth is often linked with impotence or frigidity, but these are also not physical problems, and the physician who attempts to cure these problems through hormones alone is committing a grave error. The difficulty here lies in the fear of submission, of violation, of the control of the partner, and of emotional rejection, for it is the psychic rather than the physical exchange which contains the threat.

It is fairly common to find an individual with Saturn in the eighth who may be affectionate and loving but who, when the last outpost of separateness is passed in the bedroom, shies like a frightened horse and cannot perform. Or he may overcompensate for his inner fears by becoming the "perfect lover" on a purely physical level, and he may try to block the flow of energy and emotion to his partner so that he is, somehow, not really there. However subtle this mechanism is, it can be deeply frustrating and disturbing to the partner although it may not be recognised on a conscious level by either person. The individual may not be aware that anything is wrong except that somehow it is always faintly disappointing, and he is never able to achieve the satisfaction his fantasies tell him is possible. It takes an unusual degree of honesty to look directly at the subtle patterns which surround an eighth house Saturn for there is, at the same time as fear, the overcompensation of great value placed on performace in our present era. No wonder that these people have such trouble with money during and after marriage; they may easily find themselves under financial obligations concurrent with the amount of frustration they have unconsciously inflicted on their partners.

As with all Saturn positions, two extremes of behaviour are possible. The effects of overcompensation can help to produce the overtly promiscuous person who is not truly motivated by physical pleasure but who is trying particularly hard to be "sexy" because he or she is dimly aware of a fundamental problem in relating emotionally to another person. Here Saturn again tries to make an emotional value into a physical one with little success. This kind of behaviour is prevalent now because there is great emphasis on sexual freedom as the reaction to too much restriction in the past. Both are extremes which are part of the natural process of evolution but which are unpleasant in themselves for fear permeates them both.

It is naturally wise for the consultant astrologer to express diplomacy when dealing with eighth house matters for he may be inviting a punch in the mouth otherwise. But with this kind of eighth house Saturn, we are reminded of that wonderful Shakespearean line, "Methinks thou dost protest too much!" This is reminiscent of the fourth house Saturn who "adores" his family, who had a "wonderful" childhood, who had "no problems whatsoever" with either parent.

On the other hand the person with Saturn in the eighth may cloak his fears with the garment of strong religious or moral convictions of a particularly intolerant sort, thereby declaring as sinful that of which he is essentially afraid. In these cases Saturn is a prompter toward celibacy but for all the wrong reasons. The devil, unfortunately, is not vanquished by being told to go away; it is the light of consciousness that he cannot endure.

We may also find that rare individual who is honest enough with himself to understand that there is something within himself that needs development—as there is in everyone—and who makes the effort not only to discipline but to comprehend his sexual nature as well so that he can express it in the most positive way. In all cases, however, the fascination with death and with sex is very great although there may be fear or disgust at the same time.

It seems that a characteristic pattern of the person with an eighth house Saturn is to be let down emotionally by others and often in the most intimate and painful way; and it is in this pattern that a clue to the larger purpose of the placement may be found. There is frequently a denial of deep emotional contact in childhood, and as Saturn has some connection with the father, this placement often occurs where the father dies or is emotionally cold. Often the individual grows up in an environment where very little physical expression occurs or where the sexual problems existent between the parents have filled the atmosphere with hostility and fear. There is some link between the father and the sexual energies although this may be very subtle. Often it is not subtle, and beatings or assault occur. The effect, whatever the actual circumstance, is a feeling of isolation and loneliness and the awareness that no one can share or alleviate the scars. For Saturn in the eighth house carries deeper emotional scars than any other Saturian placement, and the wounds are slower to heal.

The emotional isolation with an eighth house Saturn is even more acute than with a fourth house Saturn for the emotional needs are far more intense and directed toward individuals. It is union rather than security which is sought and union of a particularly intense and transforming kind. The individual often feels that through another he can be reborn and can achieve awareness of his spiritual nature. The lesson with Saturn, of course, is that one must do it himself; the transformation and resurrection into higher consciousness, the deep knowledge and mastery of the unconscious, must come from within the man himself. There is often a fascination with all things occult or, at the very least, an interest in the depths of the mind, and it is in utilising this interest and in learning the real nature of the energies of creation that the individual becomes a magician. The secrets of the powers of the unconscious are his, and these are literally life-giving powers for the healing of himself and others.

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Hey Steve about this little thang ~

quote:

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What do you think about what Liz says about Libra, not Virgo, being the true perfectionist of the Zodiac?

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I've had many Libran friends, men and women -- and I'd say that each of them had SOMETHING they were perfectionistic about, especially their art or career -- but none of them were perfectionists about EVERY facet of their lives (what a fine group of *balanced* people ).....

posted December 24, 2006 01:41 PM              

thanks so much...i hv downloaded all the chapters by Liz and read them. altho i must confess tht they r going to take quite a while to sink in. esp Jung's classification of the 'intuitive' type seems a bit counter-intuitive to me and the examples too seemed very subjective to me....

and Happy Holidays to u....take a nice long break

posted December 24, 2006 03:26 PM            

This might take me a while to digest.

I'll be back.

posted December 24, 2006 04:00 PM            

I think it makes a lot of sense when she explains how Libra is concerned with the harmony of elements. The fine aesthetic sense is sometimes a curse, for it always spots the asymetrical or out of place. I have found it true with the Libras and Libra Mooners I have known, but they all had Virgo placements too.

Ever heard this:
"[The difference between a self-actualized person and everyone else, is that a self-actualized person MUST be all that they can be.]"
I forget who said it.

Anyway, your words reminded me of Stanley Kubrick. He was the same way, but I dont think he ever let up. Maybe that accounts for his early death? He had a Libra Ascendant (Leo Sun, Scorpio Moon Square Neptune in Leo).

This thing you said, "I.... didn’t understand half-hearted efforts on the part of others. Why wouldn’t everyone want to do/give their best??" made me wonder if you have a stellium somewhere (I dont have your chart on hand). It sounds a lot like the descriptions of stelliums. Lack of objectivity, expecting others to be like us, not understanding when they are not. I think my own stellium has a lot to do with how I rush into social connections without observing boundaries, and have a lot of trouble understanding the reticence of others. But then, there are other things in my chart to suggest that. Also, do you have a strong Saturn? My sister has a tight Saturn square to her Sun, and she seems to expect everyone to be as hardworking as her, having little shrift for people with "other priorities". And that "if you want something done right you have to do it yourself" is very Capricornian. But, then, Saturn is exalted in Libra, and I know Isabel M. Hickey makes a point of drawing parallels between the two signs.

I can relate somewhat. It definitely irks me to see so many posts on LL that I can barely decipher the intention and meaning of, behind all the typos, mis-spellings, grammatical errors, and groggy reasonings. If people find my posts lucid and persuasive, it is only partly on account of my intelligence and verbal talents/skills. It's also because I care enough to put the requisite energy and attention into making myself understood.

posted December 27, 2006 08:33 PM            

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hey tell me, is this running away from responsibility thing common to saturn-in-3rd-er's, or is it sth else tht makes me like tht? gosh, i'm like tht too....i am really reluctant to buy a car bcoz of all tht 'hassle'...insurance, loans etc etc....and dont think i wanna ever buy a house either!! it sounds very 'settled down', and i'm not sure i want tht! (and i am supposedly a serious, responsible cappy!!)

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quote:

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wooooo...u hv almost all of liz scanned!! how did u ever do tht!! gosh, u have some patience! and r u telling me i need not buy all of them? to tell u the truth, i dont like to buy books unless i am 100% sure i need them for life!....then i buy them even if i hv read it twice already....but otherwise, i prefer e-books..

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quote:

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....i hv this way of clinging to every small bit i own....can u imagine i dont even throw away old clothes/shoes bcoz wht if i feel like wearing them SOME DAY!! and whn the time comes to move, u can imagine wht a pain it is!

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quote:

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u know, i dont even identify with my venus in cappy description- all tht looking for security part. i feel it might hv been true whn i was younger and more insecure. now i dont need to find a man to feel secure. all i want is love- the kind with the mental, emotional, spiritual and lastly the physical elements. but still i am wondering if my reaction was bcoz it struck a raw nerve? it really took me by surprise....for a moment got me thinking- cud this be true?

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posted December 28, 2006 02:41 AM              

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I had to laugh!! Yeah, I’m a packrat too. Part of it comes from being raised by Depression-Era parents who saved string, plastic bags, containers, plastic silverware, rubber bands – you name it, Mom or Dad had it salted away (Dad had Saturn in Libra too). I actually keep my old clothes too, if they’re not ragged – I even have my bell-bottom jeans from the 70’s (they’re **ahem** bootflares now, I guess) – someday soon I may actually be able to get into them again!! ;-D

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that had me laughing so hard!! wait, i've got a picture for it ----->>

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As for those “elements”, I think I might bump ‘physical’ up the list a few notches

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hehe...don't worry, tht's not the order of importance...tht was just venus in cappy sq saturn being cautious on a public forum but more seriously, for me (atleast upto now) the sequence of attractions is in tht order.......or more accurately i nip the 'unappropriate' types of attractions in the bud :-)

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that would be Air, Water, Fire and Earth…..

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honestly, i hv some trouble understanding the connection between fire and spirituality. i was pretty confused abt the 'intuitive type' defined by Jung too, which Liz says is the analytical psychology counterpart of the fire classification in astrology. it might be bcoz upto now my interaction with more fiery ppl has been restricted....ohh wait, my mother's side of the family wud be all fiery. and tell u wht, i used to be sh!t scared of them as a kid. their fiery tempers and impatience wud drive me into a corner, and they'd think i was born deaf/dumb or mentally retarded (or all three!!). and spirituality being sth i equate to tht inner peace, which doesn't quite go with my impressions till date. some saggi's i find to be very sagacious (i MUST look up the roots of these two words!). but i really dont hv many leos/aries ppl around me.

ok, i think i'll stop here. btw, i discovered tht my strongest sign is libra followed closely by aquarius :-) (i KNEW it !!! i feel more like a conventional aquarian than an unconventional cappy) and strongest planet is Mercury !! :-) And hey, so u were your dad's saturn return child? :-)

ok, now i shud reeeally go

ILWL

posted December 28, 2006 03:10 AM              

This is highly irrelevant to everything, but i thought u might just find it interesting. Was pondering over how fire signs r the intuitive type. and was thinking of Leo in particular. and then it hit me! the letter L! if i want to sum up what my Life is all about, i wud hv to say Love, Laughing, Learning. and another thing i noted whn i was studying for GRE....all words with a connotation of Lust, start with L....lewd, leer, lascivious, lurid, libidinous. I have always found it very interesting tht many 'basic', or very instinctual words start with L. something to do with how Linguistics operates....L is produced by touching the tongue to the base of the mouth (i dont knw the word for it in english....in hindi its called 'taalu'...and u can see the L there too)

phew!! tht was my mental workout for the day *gasping for air*

posted December 28, 2006 06:36 AM            

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phew!! tht was my mental workout for the day *gasping for air*

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PS: Libra starts with L too.....

Be back tonite (no karate or trumpet lessons this week for my son, so I can play here) -- I've been gathering fodder for The Mighty Pluto

posted December 30, 2006 03:14 PM              

i hv downloaded most of the stuff from your website i *think*, so i think u can make space for the newer stuff....thanks a ton once again.

i am sorry i am not able to reply as frequently these days....

btw, i hv pluto in 4th house....and the description there is spot on! will talk abt it more later whn i hv been able to process all of it.