posted February 26, 2007 11:08 AM              

I`m absolute clueless about that ASC-sol thing. Sorry.

Regarding your question:
actually I would put the main emphasis on a comparision of solar or secondary to natal.
I know you can also compare secondary to secondary.
But I wouldn`t compare secondary to solar, since it`s two different prediction-tools.

But I`m glad to hear you can verify this. My heart jumps with joy. I love it if a theory works so well.

posted February 26, 2007 02:58 PM              

Here are the dates

Mine

March 12 1964
8:23pm

HIs

posted February 26, 2007 02:59 PM              

me

pittsburgh pa

him

posted February 27, 2007 02:36 PM              

I need to know, when your relationship started, too.
Well, I just ran a progressed chart for 2006, and you actually had two aspects, which are "relationship-trigger".

His progressed Mars was trine your natal Venus
and his progressed Venus was trine your natal Mars

so, you`ve had a Double whammy Mars-Venus-aspect; the Venus-Mars - aspect is according to Westran the second strongest indicator for the beginning of a relationship.

posted February 27, 2007 02:51 PM              

Hi Darkdreamer,

"I`ve ordered the book; I`m waiting here impatiently to start reading. I hope it`s worth the wait, but the website looked so good."

I've skimmed the book, will start reading it more in depth soon. The website is pretty comprehensive I must say! The book is great, but he outlines quite a bit of it, and almost all the matrices on the site if you keep following his links.

"I`ve also found that the Moon (and Ascendant /Descendant) plays a major role in relationships. I think, Westran didn`t include the Moon, because he didn`t knew all exact birthtimes."

I thought he did have most of the birthtimes on the matrices. No? So I guess he just guessed some of them?

I also agree with the Moon and the Ascendant. The only thing with the Moon (and I am only theorizing here) is that in progressions it moves so fast that the effects might not be as lasting as the other progressing planets. So a Moon-Sun or a Moon-Venus conjunction in the progressed synastry will only last a few months at most. Whereas the Ascendant, the Sun, Venus, Mars etc last a lot longer. A degree with most of those equals a year, right? But I agree, the Moon can bring in deep emotional connection. I once had an encounter that I just knew was not going to be permanent because of life circumstances etc. But we both had strongly emotional reactions to each other and I think, we fell in love. Even knowing that it couldn't happen. Eventually, we let it go. So I checked our charts and his progressed Moon was right on top of my progressed Venus during those few months, and also my progressed Moon was on his natal Sun-Moon midpoint. Also, his progressed Sun-Moon midpoint was moving across my natal Moon just as we were getting acquainted. That Moon is a powerful body!

"In the other cases there`s almost always (except for Venus-Venus, which I haven`t found that strong indicator anyway)"

I've found that Westran is right to the extent that Venus-Venus tends to bring in good feelings. It's not always romance as he says, but just really, really good, tender feelings. For instance, my current boss and I have his progressed Sun and his progressed Venus almost exactly trine my progressed Venus. And this is going to be perpetual. It's never really going to go out of orb, ever, for our entire lives. Something like that, I feel, is very powerful between people. But we don't have ANY romantic feelings for each other. He is married and I am with someone. But we have just very good feelings for each other and we get along well. Even when we're unhappy with something the other does, we can talk it out and laugh etc. I happen to think that it's partly that progression between us (we do have some very nice natal synastry, including a Sun-Moon trine and a Venus-Chiron trine).

"the combination of a male (Sun, Mars, AC) planet / point and a female (Venus, DC) planet / point involved- I wonder, couldn`t we include the Sun-Moon-combination here? And what about Moon - Mars?"

I'd include them! I've been noticing a lot of Mars-Moon, Mars-Mars, and Mars-Asc-Dsc. I think Westran just didn't want to include too many variables in his study but I am pretty sure he's seen these. But it's true that almost 95% of the synastries that I have tried to correlate with his study -- he is ON THE DOT!

"Oh sorry, I think there are too many ideas and thoughts at the same time in my head; I just can`t give my writing any kind of structure today (*ironically* thank you very much, mercury!)."

Don't worry about it! I am just so glad to see someone talk about this..... someone who's crazy enough like me, someone who loves dabbling in proving theories.

One of us should email him and see if he responds.

"However, I think, if the Moon and Venus are in masculine signs, like Aries, the persons could decide to act upon their feelings and maybe start a relationship. You can`t imagine an impatient Aries-Moon sitting around, admiring Dulcinea from afar, can you?"

Well... Yes, I can see where you're coming from there.

"I also have discovered something else, but that could maybe just coincidental.
In many, not all, relationships I found a Sun-Mars-aspect as the same time as a Venus-aspect. I wonder, what that means. And if that happens often, or if I just looked at charts, in which it occured."

Okay, what do you think about this? I think that when people have Venus-Mars, Mars-Mars, Mars-Sun, Mars-ASC progressive aspects between them, the relationship is definitely physically-based. But a touch of Sun-Venus in the midst of those brings in that settling down urge. For some reason, the Venus-Sun (in appropriate, suitable situations and between suitable people) really brings in that urge to merge in a permanent way. That's what I am seeing. I am going to do more research this week and weekend and let you know if I find out any more.

posted February 27, 2007 03:00 PM              

Agreed 100%.

"My best friend has been together with her boyfriend for 7 years, and they started their relationship, when they had progressed Sun-Venus and Venus-Mars-aspects.
But they didn`t have one of those aspects, Westran mentions in his theory. Actually the boy`s Venus, Mars and Sun had no aspects to her planets."

You mean, in their natal synastry, they didn't have any Ptolemaic aspects to each other's Suns, Venuses, or Marses? Is that what you're saying and what Westran says?

"Why it lasted for 7 years?
Well, they had very, very strong Moon-synastry. They were like family, more like father and child, or even older brother and sister than anything else. Of course it didn`t work out forever."

So you think the Moon can bring in the family feeling, or a familiarity/comfortable feeling. I totally agree. And I think natal Moon synastry goes a long way in doing this. Some people really respond to their Moons being touched. As you said before, to each their own cuppa tea.

For example, I think I like my Mars stimulated, as well as my Mercury. I've had those two stimulated a lot in the past by guys that I've liked. But once, I had a guy bombard my Venus with many of his planets and points. And for a while, I was like, totally flabbergasted. I didn't know what to do with it/him! I felt so vulnerable, so stimulated in a way that I'd never been that it just totally shook me up. I had really, REALLY romantic feelings for him. And he wasn't even my type and I knew we weren't for each other. But we just had very strong romantic, passionate feelings for each other and it was mutual - totally (My Ascendant was exactly trine his Venus and my BML was also on his Venus). So it was just very surprising for me. It was good, but it was unexpected because I'd never experienced that before him.

"Surprisingly this theory seems also to work with celebrities.
There`s one actor, who fascinates me, and we share some amazing synastry links like:
His Sun conjunct my Venus, his Moon conjunct my Uranus, his Mercury conjunct my Sun / Mercury, his Venus conjunct my Mars / Ascendant / Neptune, his Mars conjunct my Mars / AScendant, his Ascendant conjunct my Mars / Neptune / Ascendant, a double Pluto - MC-conjunction, some interesting asteroid-conjunctions."

Those are some doozy contacts!

"I forgot about him again, and the amazing thing is, I really took notice of him, when we had some interesting progressions:

My progressed Mars conjunct his progressed Moon
My natal Sun conjunct his progressed Moon (exact)
My natal Venus conjunct his progressed ASC (exact)"

And I guess that is exactly what we're talking about in this thread.

"Another interesting thing is, we have a double Sun-Venus-conjunction lurking in the progressions, not yet in orb. Both will come into orb over the next 18 months, in 2012 both Sun-Venus-conjunctions will be in orb, and his progressed Sun will exactly conjunct my Moon.
And those Sun-Venus-conjunctions are surprisingly long lasting (until 2028).
Seems, I will keep being intrigued by him, I guess. lol"

See, that one then is in perpetuity. That means you'll probably never be rid of him. lol!!

"With the Solar arcs I only compare Solar arc to natal planet."

Okay, thank you.

"And yes, it`s such a fun, proving theories."

Agreed. Also, sorry about such a long post but I feel excited to talk to you.

posted February 27, 2007 03:54 PM              

the below are dates we spoke to each via email but we actually met the weekend prior to each date shown:

May 1, 2006.

Ok, we both sort of said hello to each other via email, he saw me in my band that weekend before may 1.

July 31

Came to a show, barely spoke he was with his girlfriend and he did our photo shoot that weekend prior to july 31.

August 25, 2006

He came alone to a show and we spoke alone briefly for the first time on aug 25

sept 9, 2006

saw him briefly for another photo shoot

Between sept 19 and 21

we met for a photo shoot with just me and we became intimate

posted February 28, 2007 12:01 PM              

so much to read - that makes my heart sing! I love an exchange of ideas and thoughts. Actually right now my head is buzzing with so many theories and ideas, I hardly don`t know how to give them a direction.
But being a saggy with Sun-Mercury-conjunct and Aquarius-Moon, that`s the way I love it!

Also, the book arrived yesterday, and despite having just no time and much to do - workwise - I have already read the first 200 pages; I can`t rip myself away from it.
One expression made me laugh.
When he described the Venus-Venus-trine he stated: "When Venus in one chart meets Venus in another chart, there can be a soft, romantic and sentimental attraction..and lots of gushy poetry."
I had to laugh so hard, that I almost cried, because my very first crush (a musical-singer) and me share a natal Venus-Venus-trine within 1,5° and after "noticing" him (I hadn`t even seen him then; I "only" fell for his voice), I`ve been writing over 300 poems within the next 3 years; he really became a trigger for all that hidden creativity inside of me.
That was really a lot of "gushy poetry".

Regarding the birthdates; he often didn`t know the exact birthtimes, but he also sais, that he didn`t include the moon, because the moon is about emotional nurturing, which becomes very important within the relationship, but it`s n ot the trigger that makes you develop romantic feelings for a person - that would be Venus.

You wrote, that in that encounter, that didn`t become a full - bloom- relationship, t hat his progressed Sun-Moon midpoint was moving across your natal Moon and that your progressed Moon was on his natal Sun-Moon-midpoint.
So you would include the midpoints in progressions, too?
I definitely second that (will explain later, why).
And that Sun-Moon-action really tells a story of emotional bonding, even in a fleeting contact.

Regarding that Venus-Venus-aspect; I got it wrong, but I think, I do understand it now. It may not be the most passionate aspect, but it really brings very good and ultra-romantic feelings. It`s certainly no coincidence, t hat I`m always attracted to men, whose Venus fits mine, at least sign-wise. I even found out that I seem to have a preference for Venus in Taurus, Capricorn and Scorpio, sometimes also Pisces. There`s only one case I know, where I felt attracted to a masculine Venus; a Venus in Sagittarius, and Sagittarius is the sign, my Sun, Mercury, Mars, Node and AScendant are in.
But give me a Taurus or a Scorpio-Venus and I am simply lost, literally defenceless. (Taurus is on the cusp of my 5th house and my natal Venus is square my Pluto - that might explain it a bit; my Venus is also in Pisces-dwad).

Perpetual progressions - I realized something yesterday, and it was pretty amazing. Just because it shows how accurately progressions work.
That first celebrity - crush I told you about, I noticed him in 1990, and I found it hard to believe that I`m still thinking of him, still admiring him a lot. I mean, 17 years, come on, most marriages are more shortlived than that!
When I noticed him, his progressed Venus just had left an opposition to my natal Mars and was still conjunct my Descendant and trine my Pluto.
Many years later, in 2002, when I actually had the courage to talk to him, something so strange happened.
I had been struggling with my feelings for him for many years, and then I approached him, just telling him how much I had enjoyed his show.
And when I shook hands with him, I was hit, or rather enveloped by an immense amount of warmth and energy. In that one moment I felt "complete", and experienced that I can only call "bliss", not emotional or physical, but pure spiritual bliss. According to the confusion and surprise in his eyes, he wasn`t totally unimpressed either. lol
This was really a turning point in my life, because from th at moment on I felt that everything was alright. I cannot explain it better, but that was what I was feeling, I was kind of "soaked" in his energy, a very positive, vibrant feeling.
And now when I looked it up, it turns out that at that time my progressed Mars had just moved into an opposition to his progressed Venus, and that my progressed Venus was moving into an opposition to his natal Sun.

Interestingly that progressed Mars-Venus-opposition is becoming exact this year, and my progressed Moon will be exactly conjunct his natal Sun, on the very day of his birthday.
That Venus-Mars-aspect seems to be a perpetual progression, too.
Because once the opposition wanes in 2012, his progressed Venus will oppose my natal Venus and my progressed Mars will trine his natal Venus.
Once this progression wanes, his progressed Mars will be trining my natal Venus. All of that lasts until 2025.
And even more interesting, both progressed Mars will be conjunct our own natal Venus, which means, the Mars-progression will set off the grand trine of Venus, Venus, Pluto.
Astrology is sometimes amazing, isn`t it?
Probably I will always feel energized, when I hear his voice.

to be continued.

DD

posted February 28, 2007 12:26 PM              

I also think that when Mars is included and emphasized in the progressions, the relationship is physically based. You`d need some Venus or at least Moon-connections to develop romantic or emotional attachment.

What did you find out about the square?
I agree, that it`s a volatile and difficult aspect, but I also tend to think, it can be quite sexy and a sign of strong, maybe too strong, attraction, even though the persons may not get along that well.
But I`m not sure about that. So what do you think?

Regarding the synastry of my friend with her ex:

Of course they had some aspects, but I was looking at the personal connections.

His Sun had no aspects to her planets
Her Sun had no aspects to his planets (except if you count that square to his Moon of 6°)
His Venus had a loose opposition to her Moon (ca 5° - which is still fairly wide)
His Mars had no aspects
His aScendant had no aspects

What they had was
His Moon trine her Moon, sextile her Venus, Mars
His Mercury trine her ASC and MC
His MC sextile her MErcury, Venus, Mars

Really a poor comparision, isn`t it?
WEll, for friends it might be okay, but for a romantically involved couple of teenagers? (My friend was 16 when their relationship started)

I think the moon is a very meaningful planet in synastry. You want to be touched emotionally and you want share a close bond in a marriage or relationship, but I don`t think Moon brings any kind of sexual or erotic feelings, except for the aspects with Mars (Moon-Mars can be very sexy) and I also think Moon-Pluto can be also sexually attractive, but on a very deep emotional level.

I also like having Mercury stimulated; it`s a must with Gemini-Descendant and Mercury in conjunct with Sun in the 1st house I guess.
Regarding your reaction to Venus, is your Venus unaspected or somehow challenged?

But I wanted to ask about midpoints.
There`s someone I feel very much drawn to. Nothing real. Of course another celebrity-crush. I like these, there`s never the risk for them of becoming real and therefor disturbing my peaceful slumber in my intellectual haven. Just another case in my study. But the point is I feel such strong gut-reactions to someone I don`t even know; it`s a bit unsettling, that I cannot easily shake those feelings off like I`m used to (I like to indulge in my infatuations, but I usually know the line between reality and dream, and can get myself together and "switch off" those infatuations). REally strong.

HOwever, looking into the progressions it wasn`t that convincing.
His progressed Venus is conjunct my natal Venus, but it`s separating, so that doesn`t explain the intensity, I`m experiencing now.
Even though, his progressed Venus is moving into an exact square to my natal Pluto, and therefor setting my natal Venus-Pluto-square off. Can that be a reason?
Also, my progressed Venus is moving towards a square to his natal Mars? But Venus-square-Mars-isn`t said to be that attracting, according to that study, is it?
Thirdly: his progressed Venus-Mars-midpoint is exactly conjunct my natal Sun-Mercury-conjunction now, and my progressed Venus-Pluto-midpoint is exactly conjunct his progressed Mars?
Can those midpoints be relevant and comparable to a Venus-Mars-aspect?
Futhermore, my progressed Venus is now exactly parallel his Venus / Mars-parallel in the declinations.
But declinations aren`t included or mentioned in this book, and I don`t know how relevant they are.
What do you think?

posted February 28, 2007 12:38 PM              

you still have progressed aspects with those dates.

His progressed Mars trine your natal Venus and his progressed Venus trine your natal Mars.

Hmm, nice passionate aspects.

posted March 02, 2007 02:12 PM              

Bumping this so we don't lose it.

Hey DD, am writing from work. Will be back in the weekend. Got some stuff for you that I've been researching.....!

TTYL....

posted March 09, 2007 01:46 PM              

I am so sorry for the delay in getting back to this. I was actually mulling emailing you instead of doing this here. I think I migght email this to you anyway so that if you want we can conduct a convo about this offline. Let me know what you want to do.

Okay, I've been doing more research on this but first, let me answer some stuff we brought up earlier. I'll do those first, then over the weekend, I'll show you some of my research -- the one I did with Westran's book in mind. (It's amazing!!!)

Anyway, I agree with you about the Venus aspects being "romantic" rather than "emotional" which is moon's area.

And yeah, I would include certain MPs in progressions, namely the Sun-Moon MP, the Venus-Mars MP, and also, perhaps the Sun-Venus MP.

RE Perpetual Progs -- YES!! I agree and completely see where you're coming from re that celebrity. In fact, the research I did last week was about this. I think the reasons certain relationships last are twofold:

1) Perpetual Progressions between two people, or progressions that drop off but then are followed up on by others. (will talk more about this later)

2) Tight, natal synastric interaspects between key planets like the sun, the moon, and Venus and Mars AND the ASC-DSC.

posted March 09, 2007 02:10 PM              

here's more on our stuff...

I agree about the square being intense but touhg and perhaps not permanent. My ex and I had his progressed Sun square my progressed Venus AND Mars all through our relationship and boy was it intense but it was soooooooo hard!! So hard. I hated it when we called it quits but I knew there was no way we could bear a lifetime of close quarters with each other. I think for a marriage, you need at least some trines and conjunctions. Oppositions can work, but not without some of those supportive aspects.

As for your question about the other celebrity, I do feel that the Venus-Mars square can be very dynamic and magnetic, just perhaps not lasting. But the declinations are really, REALLY important and yes, they do work I think with Westran's assertions (I think he just didn't want to deal with them as his body of research was already so exhaustive). I've researched them simultanueously last week with the longitudes and they do absolutely work. It's just that I think that the orbs with declinations need to be very fine, very close to work - like, say, 1 degree or less.

Also, say, if a progressive synastry aspect is both in the longitudes and the decs, it's awesome in power (as in conjunct AND parallel; and this goes for natal synastry as well). But one thing I did notice was that once these kinds of "bi-level" aspects start separating in the longitudes, the power of the declinational aspects falls off rapidly. I am not sure, but I'm seeing that over and over again.

Okay, more later about my research. I'd be happy to email you about this stuff. If you want to email me, it's badhabit19@yahoo.com.

BTW, what software do you use?

Okay, ciao for now, my astro-sister.

posted March 09, 2007 04:48 PM              

I read the book some months ago. I think the book included only Sun/Venus, Venus/Venus and Venus/Mar. Did Venus/DC was included by the author? The book is with my friend so I could not check myself

I checked many relationships. There was one exception which is my own case. Although I included Venus/DC, I still could not find any of the above aspects when we started relationship. That's why I do not think that the theory is 100% correct. However, it is only one exception that I found out of 10 cases.

posted March 10, 2007 01:13 PM              

no, he doesn`t really include Venus-DC, BUT when he describes the relationship of Paul Mc Cartney and Linda Eastman, he states, that he hasn`t found those progressed aspects of Sun-Venus, Venus-Mars, Venus - Venus, but natally her Sun was exactly conjunct his Descendant; Westran then explains, that since Descendant is a Venus-point, this works like a strong Sun-Venus-aspect.

I concluded from that that you can include Sun-Descendant, and even Venus - Ascendant (Venus-Mars), Venus - Descendant (Venus - Venus), Mars - Descendant (Mars - Venus).
Only then I have found the theory to work nearly always.

But of course, no theory is 100% perfect.
In your case, have you checked
Sun-Descendant, Mars - Descendant, too?
And have you also checked the usual synastry, if there are those aspects?

And something, that interests me very much, have you found similiar connections to the solar arcs?

DD

posted March 10, 2007 06:25 PM              

of course I`m interested in hearing more of your results to your research and would love to continue this via email. I`ll mail you soon.

but until then I wanted to reply to what you wrote.

Regarding midpoints:
Yes, I think more and more that they are really important, and I would also include the Sun-Venus-mp.

RE your thoughts on why certain relationships last, I agree with you (no surprise I guess )
I think, maybe perpetual progressions can explain the relationships of people, who are not as well matched synastrical, but the progressions show that they are meant to go a way together, and that can last for some years.

"Tight, natal synastric interaspects between key planets like the sun, the moon, and Venus and Mars aND the ASC-DSC."
I think I agree. But I have some more questions.

1. what do you think is tight in a synastry? Only 2° orb, 4° orb or what would you say? (I`m using 4° orb for now, unless there are conjunctions).
2. do you mean aspects from sun, moon, Venus and Mars to the ASC - DSC? Or would you include aspects of the inner planet like Moon - Mars, too?

posted March 10, 2007 06:35 PM              

That is interesting what you found out about the declinations. I`ll keep watching them from now on. And I also think one should keep the orb tight (under 1°) with them.
With someone I know I share a Sun-Venus-conjunction and parallel (orb: 1,5° and the parallel well under 1°), a Venus-mars-conjunction and parallel (Orb of the conjunction: 7° and the parallel: 9 minutes of arc), a Mars-Neptune-conjunction and parallel, a mutual Neptune-ASC conjunction and parallel and Vertex-conjunctions and parallels.
And it feels strong, not easy, but definitely strong.

Well, a funny astrological random note:
I have been to the top synergy site today, and just for fun, checked some relationships and attractions and crushes of mine, and since I have just been seeing "The legend of Zorro", I thought I would check my RQ with Antonio Banderas, too. Only out of boredom and fun.
And it turns out that we were probably made for each other, according to that site.

Love: 120
Friendship: 100
Sex: 140
Partnership: 100

(100 and above is called "perfect")
It`s an amusing site. I wouldn`t take it too serious, since I don`t know how they calculate those relationship-quotients, but it`s good for a loud giggle.

posted March 10, 2007 06:51 PM              

I could not find Sun/DCor Mar/DC too. However, for the synastry chart, we have the following:
Sun square DC(0.5 degree orb)
Moon conjunct AC(0.5 degree orb)

Thanks for giving me the idea to check Solar Arc. Yes. I found the following aspects:
Venus trine Mar
Venus Oppose Mar
Venus quindecile Venus (I do not know whether this is strong or not. However, from my experience, quindecile is always strong.)

By the way for progression, I found Venus quindecile Sun. So, if you included quindecile aspect, then the theory for me would then be 100% correct

So, I think it is better to check Solar Arc too if we cannot find such ASPECTS in progressed charts.

I have my DC exactly conjunct a guy's Sun. Then, from this theory, it seems to me that we can get into relationship with him any time. Anyway, this is true. Every time I broke up with him, I felt that we were on a break waiting for reunion one day. Actually that one day is the day when we just meet each other on the street somewhere accidentally. Again and again.......
However, for the first time my relationship started with this guy, my Sun trine his Venus in progressed charts.