posted February 24, 2007 06:11 AM              

did anyone here read the book by Paul Westran about progressed synastry "When stars collide"?
I`ve come across his website, where he published some of his ideas and results, and it left me quite gobsmacked.
He investigated around 1300 charts concerning the beginning of relationships, and he found something like a "relationship-pattern" or rather a "Venus-pattern".
In most cases, when a relationship started, he found that there were aspects (conjunction, trine, opposition) of Venus to Sun, Venus or Mars.
Those aspects were found either in the natal - natal aspects, progressed - progressed aspects or progressed - natal aspects.
One of the exceptions to this rule seems to be Paul McCartney and his former wife Linda, there were no such aspects.
But they share a very close Sun-Descendant-conjunction natally.
Paul Westran said, that as the Descendant is a Venus-point, this aspect might act similiarly to the Venus-Sun-aspect.
I concluded from this, that then the Ascendant is a Mars-point, and so you would have to include also aspects from Sun to Descendant (Sun - Venus), Venus to Descendant (Venus-Venus) and Venus to Ascendant (Venus-Mars).

I then made my own little investigation. I looked at a lot of beginnings of relationships or even crushes in my own life as well as in the lifes of many friends, family members and so on.
And there was not one relationship, that didn`t have such a Venus-aspect (if I include the Ascendant and Descendant as relationship-axis as well). Not a single one!
I was pretty amazed at this.

So, does anyone here know of a relationship that started without following aspects in the natal or progressed horoscopes:

Sun conjunct, trine, opposite Venus
Venus conjunct, trine, opposite Venus
Mars conjunct, trine opposite Venus
Sun conjunct, trine, opposite Descendant
Venus conjunct, trine, opposite Descendant
Venus conjunct, trine, opposite Ascendant?

Or maybe someone can confirm that theory, too?
Oh and I forgot to mention: Paul WEstran uses 2° orb for progressions; the orb of the natal - natal-a" wspects can be wider, of course. (Even though I found, that if the relationship was based on a natal-natal-aspect, the orb of that "relationship-aspect was mostly within the 2° orb or very close to it).

Ah, I just love it to test new theories!

DD

posted February 24, 2007 06:33 AM            

Using his 2deg orb rule, the aspects were:
sun opp moon
sun con venus
sun semi-square uranus
sun semi-sextile pluto
sun sextile Part of Fortune
sun trine AC
sun sextile DC
moon opp mercury
moon quintile venus
moon inconjunct pluto
moon trine vertex
moon sextile AC
moon trine DC
mercury trine moon
mercury semi-sextile neptune
venus semi-square uranus
venus semi-sextile pluto
venus trine AC
venus sextile DC
mars opp jupiter
mars square jupiter
jupiter square neptune
saturn inconjunct uranus
saturn trine north node
saturn semi-square AC
pluto square AC
pluto opp MC
pluto con IC

Sun, venus and chiron are in the 5th H
Node and vertex in the 7th H
Mars in the 8th H.

Not sure if thats what you're looking for. We both also have nice synastry aspects between our natal charts and the first contact chart (inc his natal karma conjuncts the first contact one). Its very interesting.

posted February 24, 2007 08:00 AM              

actually that`s not what I meant. Even though I find the idea of the first contact chart fascinating (maybe the next topic I`ll look into.)
But I was speaking about progressed charts.

I was having a look at your synastry with your boyfriend and you would fit that pattern.
Your Sun is opposite his Descendant (that is the Sun-Venus-aspect)
Your Venus is also widely conjunct his Sun (another Sun-Venus)
Your Venus is widely conjunct his Ascendant (similiar to Venus - Mars, even though not the same, of course)
Your Venus also widely opposes his Descendant (Venus-Venus)
His Venus widely trines your descendant (Venus - Venus)

So, according to Paul Westran you have a lot of relationship-aspects in your synastry.

But I also looked at the progressed horoscopes. Since I don`t know when your relationship started, I chose the current date, since you`re still together.

Your progressed Venus is conjunct his progressed Venus
Your progressed Descendant is exactly trine his progressed Descendant

so, yes, you would prove WEstran`s theory with all those Venus-aspects.

posted February 24, 2007 09:24 AM              

if you give me the datas of your and your boyfriend I can have a short look.
I`d also like to check your progressed charts, since I`m trying to prove WEstran`s theory right or wrong to decide if I can work with it. So, it would be great, if you could tell me, when you two have started your relationship.

posted February 24, 2007 09:59 AM              

For example:
I have a Sun-Venus-conjunction with someone and there is the potential of falling in love with each other.
But maybe we need something to trigger that conjunction, to raise it into the consciousness.
It may be just a sleeping potential, until a progressed planet in either horoscope touches it or maybe a Transiting planet aspects this conjunction, and it kind of "wakes up".

A good example for this is my first great and unforgettable love or rather crush.
We have a grand trine of Venus, Venus and Pluto in our synastry.
His Venus: 4° Taurus
My Venus: 6° Capricorn
His Pluto: 8° Virgo.
As you may notice, there`s not only a Grand Trine, but my Venus is exactly opposite his Venus-Pluto-midpoint.

When I was "crushed" with him, transiting Jupiter was moving into an opposition to my Venus (and therefore sextile his Venus and Pluto, and conjunct his Venus-Pluto-mp).
Also transiting Uranus was conjunct my Venus, trine his Venus and Pluto.
so, the transiting Jupiter-Uranus-opposition woke up our grand trine, and I can tell you, I was absolutely smitten with that guy. It was passionate, deep, hot, but also had a very "light and carefree" feeling to it, very electric, pleasurable, and joyful.

Looking at the progressions:
HIs progressed Venus was conjunct my natal Descendant and widely opposed my natal Mars
Interestingly his progressed Venus was also exactly square his natal Pluto, and therefore activated also that Grand trine.

The whole thing had a very Plutonic and also jupiter and Uranian feeling to it.
I have never been as happy and smitten with anyone else. It was pure bliss, pure emotion and then after a while pure torture, jealousy, unpredictability (I`ve tasted all posritive and negative Uranus and Pluto-traits in this relationship).

So, this particular crush certainly proved this theory true.

DD

posted February 25, 2007 12:41 AM            

Duh for me, I just re-read your original post, I was so tired when I posted.

First contact was 14th jan 2006 11-30pm melbourne australia.

That was the chart I listed the aspects for. He's not my 'boyfriend' but we have had an intense relationship ever since then. Keeps getting better thank god. Thought I was mad and it was one sided for ages but its not.

Not sure if he'll ever be my 'boyfriend' but we are exclusively seeing one another. Theres so many life obstacles in the way I don't blame him for being wary. I'm older and have children and he still lives with his parents; and thats just to begin with. Who knows what'll happen, but the feelings are definately there and mutual.

posted February 25, 2007 05:17 AM              

I already looked into your progressions; and yes, you prove this theory right, as your progressed Venus is conjunct his progressed Venus, and your progressed Descendant is trine his progressed Descendant. I guess that counts.

Carlfloydfan,
you can mail me the dates to Sulpicia@yahoo.com.
I`m really curious to see, if that theory works.

DD

posted February 25, 2007 05:26 AM            

I hate to sound dense, but what are progressions? I've heard the term before but as I've had no real interest til now I haven't even bothered reading posts about them.

posted February 25, 2007 06:09 AM              

I haven`t been interested in progressions before either, but this theory and little study of Westran got me interested.

Progressions are a tool of prediction.
There are two main kinds of progressions:
1. the secondary progression
2. the solar arc progression

For the secondary progression you take every day after your birth as one year.
For example: Says, you`re 20 years old, then you just count the days after your birth, and the 20th days equals your 20th year. I never used it before, because I didn`t understand why a day should equal a year.
but according to the 1300 charts Westran analysed, it seems to work.

2. The solar arc
Here you just also count the days after your birth, but you only look at the sun.
For example:
I am born on the 18th december 1974; which means I am 32 years old now.
So, I look into the ephemeris, where my sun would be located 32 days after the 18th december.
That would be january, 19th in 1975; so this day tells me something about my 32th year.
The sun on this day has reached 28°44 Capricorn. My natal Sun is 25°56 Sagittarius; that means the sun has moved 32°48 since my birth; so this is the solar arc (the way of the sun) and that number I add to every other planet.

When I did progressions before, I always used the solar arc, because if you use the secondary progressions Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pltuo won`t move very far.
but with the solar arc they do.
I remember, when I opened up to the spiritual world for the first time, establishing a telepathic contact, having my first astral travel and all that, the directed / progressed Neptune had been exactly conjunct my Sun - Mercury-conjunction, which explained that spiritual stuff quite clearly to me.
The solar arc became also visible in relation to the man, I thought I was madly in love with then.
His directed Uranus was square my natal Sun-Mercury-conjunction, and he was the one, who kind of "pushed" me towards my spiritual side. Very stormy and electrifying!
It was even more meaningful, because Mercury is the ruler of my 7th house and Sun rules my 9th house. Knowing about him changed my view on the world forever, even though it was only a crush.
Also, his directed Pluto had been square my Venus, which is my all-time-favourite-passion-trigger. lol
My directed Moon had been conjunct his natal Jupiter - yes, he really uplifted me.
my directed Uranus was opposite his natal Moon.
My directed uranus was on 16° Scorpio
His natal Moon was on 17° Taurus
My natal Moon was on 17° Aquarius
And additionally the transiting Pluto on 16° Scorpio set it all off. It was insane!
So, I`m pretty convinced the solar arcs are effective, too. Well, Noel Tyl swears by them.
Interestingly I also looked if the theory of Westran also works with solar arcs, and until now it does.
There were always some Venus-aspects with the solar arc, too. But of course I didn`t analyse 1300 charts.
Still, I feel more drawn to the solar arcs than to secondary progressions if I`m honest.

DD

posted February 25, 2007 06:18 AM              

You can get your progressions and solar arcs on astro.com.
Just go to extended chart selection; then to "select the chart you want"; sroll down and choose "natal, progressions and solar arc combined"; so you don`t have to calculate by yourself.

Also, I came across a site, where secondary progressions and solar arcs are discussed.
http://www.themetaarts.com/200405/basilfearington.html

posted February 25, 2007 03:47 PM              

I got your email, and checked your progressions; just had a very fleeting glance at the horoscope.
But yes, actually you also prove that theory true.

your progressed Sun is trine her natal Venus (according to westran this is the most common sign for a relationship, because it symbolizes love, affection and the wish to "settle down" with each other)

your progressed Mars is conjunct her natal Descendant
and
her progressed Ascendant is trine your natal Venus

That Venus-Mars and Venus-Ascendant-connections speak of a very passionate affair or relationship.
It`s like you have the best of two worlds: love with the Sun-Venus-aspect and passion with the Venus-Mars-aspect.

On a funny side note: I couldn`t help noticing that your progressed Sun falls onto my own Mars-Ascendant-conjunction; maybe that theory doesn`t only work with relationships and loveaffairs, but also with any kind of encounter.

posted February 26, 2007 12:09 AM              

This is so amazing! I've been reading the Westran book and site for a little while and also checking charts and, with one or two exceptions (and even then, the moon or the ASC/DSC comes into play from what I've seen), every single relationship that I have checked seems to have started with either a Sun-Venus, Mars-Venus, Venus-Venus, or ASC-Venus aspect!

I've checked my own, my families', my friends and celebrities/famous people's ad nauseaum for the last few weeks. Very few exceptions!

It is rather unbelievable, is it not?!

Okay, I have a few questions for you. Have you noticed any differences and/or distinctions? I'd love to compare notes with you. One thing I have noticed is that, in progressed Venus-Mars or progressed Venus-Sun relationships, once the progressed Venus starts pulling away, the relationship needs to survive on the strength of the natal aspects. If the natal synastry is not strong enough, and doesn't have enough of those same Ptolemaic aspects (like between the Sun, Venus, Mars, on the ASC or the Moon) then there's more chance that the relationship will die a natural death. I checked out most of the matrices that Westran gave on his site, and this theory seems to hold. I also checked my own family and friends and it holds their too. Also, my own.

One other thing: I like your theory about Solar Arcs and concur. My question is, do you compare SAs to the partner's natal only? Or do you also compare them to the other SA chart (the partner's), as well as the partner's secondary progressed?

Lastly, it's so good to meet someone who is as much into proving theories as I am! It's fun, ain't it?

posted February 26, 2007 12:36 AM              

That progressed stuff is not something I have looked into, but it sounds fun. Did you find anything that would add a SURREAL feeling? I hope those dates helped, I wanted to add lots of detail and even looked through old emails that helped me chronicle things better.

by surreal I just mean, unreal in how amazing things were..fantastic!..the world felt like a dream. maybe something with current neptune or uranus placement in the sky touching mine or hers or both of our planets?

posted February 26, 2007 02:15 AM              

"natal, progressions and solar arc combined"

it will automatically set it for whatever date it would need it to be [mine states mar 17 since i was born feb 20 on a non leap yr and im 25].. no need to type in a special date.

------------

My question is:

When I use the above method I receive 3 AC axes on the right:

AC sol -- what would this one be?
MC sol
AC sa -- i know this axis represents solar arc
MC sa
AC pr -- i know this one is progressed
MC pr

neither of them are my true AC [natal] so I am clueless as to the axis "AC sol" would represent?

---------

posted February 26, 2007 10:11 AM              

I need both your birthdates and the year / month / week, you started your relationship.

posted February 26, 2007 10:42 AM              

I see it too - the Sol ASC. At first I thought it might be the solar return ASC for that year, but no. I've no idea what it could be. Maybe Darkdreamer knows.

posted February 26, 2007 10:46 AM              

I`ve ordered the book; I`m waiting here impatiently to start reading. I hope it`s worth the wait, but the website looked so good.

I`ve also found that the Moon (and Ascendant / Descendant) plays a major role in relationships. I think, Westran didn`t include the Moon, because he didn`t knew all exact birthtimes.
But apart from that, I have found that a Moon-venus-aspect sometimes is a good indicator, but not always. I haven`t analysed this, but my personal theory (unproved so far) is like that:
Moon-Venus are both feminine, very receptive planets / energies, and if the Moon and Venus are in female signs like pisces, both persons could adore each other endlessly, feel absolutely comfortable with each other, loving each other from afar, without ever losing one word about it. In the other cases there`s almost always (except for Venus-Venus, which I haven`t found that strong indicator anyway) the combination of a male (Sun, Mars, AC) planet / point and a female (Venus, DC) planet / point involved- I wonder, couldn`t we include the Sun-Moon-combination here? And what about Moon - Mars?
Oh sorry, I think there are too many ideas and thoughts at the same time in my head; I just can`t give my writing any kind of structure today (*ironically* thank you very much, mercury!).

However, I think, if the Moon and Venus are in masculine signs, like Aries, the persons could decide to act upon their feelings and maybe start a relationship. You can`t imagine an impatient Aries-Moon sitting around, admiring Dulcinea from afar, can you?

I also have discovered something else, but that could maybe just coincidental.
In many, not all, relationships I found a Sun-Mars-aspect as the same time as a Venus-aspect. I wonder, what that means. And if that happens often, or if I just looked at charts, in which it occured.

I also noticed, that once the progression had gone, the couple needed some strong synastry to stay together, preferably the mentioned Venus-aspects, to endure.
My best friend has been together with her boyfriend for 7 years, and they started their relationship, when they had progressed Sun-Venus and Venus-Mars-aspects.
But they didn`t have one of those aspects, Westran mentions in his theory. Actually the boy`s Venus, Mars and Sun had no aspects to her planets.
Why it lasted for 7 years?
Well, they had very, very strong Moon-synastry. They were like family, more like father and child, or even older brother and sister than anything else. Of course it didn`t work out forever.

Surprisingly this theory seems also to work with celebrities.
There`s one actor, who fascinates me, and we share some amazing synastry links like:
His Sun conjunct my Venus, his Moon conjunct my Uranus, his Mercury conjunct my Sun / Mercury, his Venus conjunct my Mars / Ascendant / Neptune, his Mars conjunct my Mars / AScendant, his Ascendant conjunct my Mars / Neptune / Ascendant, a double Pluto - MC-conjunction, some interesting asteroid-conjunctions.

But when I first saw him in a film - long before I ever did astrology- I thought, he had "something", but there was also the feeling of "too soon", "this is not the right time now".
I forgot about him again, and the amazing thing is, I really took notice of him, when we had some interesting progressions:

My progressed Mars conjunct his progressed Moon
My natal Sun conjunct his progressed Moon (exact)
My natal Venus conjunct his progressed ASC (exact)

Another interesting thing is, we have a double Sun-Venus-conjunction lurking in the progressions, not yet in orb.
Both will come into orb over the next 18 months, in 2012 both Sun-Venus-conjunctions will be in orb, and his progressed Sun will exactly conjunct my Moon.
And those Sun-Venus-conjunctions are surprisingly long lasting (until 2028).
Seems, I will keep being intrigued by him, I guess. lol

With the Solar arcs I only compare Solar arc to natal planet.

And yes, it`s such a fun, proving theories.

DD

posted February 26, 2007 11:04 AM              

that dreamy feelings sound very Neptunian.

Well, checking the progressions I couldn`t find a strong Neptunian theme.

But when I use the solar arc, there`s a lot of Neptune-stuff, oh my God!

Her directed (solar-arc) Moon squares your natal Neptune
Her directed Venus trines your natal Neptune
her directed ASC trines your natal Neptune
Her directed Neptune squares your natal Moon
Her directed Neptune conjuncts your natal Mars
and her directed Neptune conjuncts your natal AScendant.

You two must feel like you`re under each others spell, true magic, as you said it, like a dream.
Maybe with a bit too much idolization (the Moon-square-Neptune can make you believe in illusions), but all in all, just dreamy, otherworldly aspects, as if all of this is too good to be true, and yet it feels as if it`s meant to be.