posted November 09, 2007 05:48 AM              

Are we just supposed to ignore everything, if the orb is not tight (0 to 2-3 degrees)in synastry (and why not also in the basic natal charts)?

I mean, surely there is some value in 5 or 6 degree conjunctions/oppositions etc.? Some astrologers even use an orb of 8-10 degrees. I don't think they are totally misled.

These more loose orbs do work in practice and quite in an efficient way too.

posted November 09, 2007 08:54 AM              

When I first started looking more in-depth into synastry, I was SO frustrated by the lack of consensus out there about what size orbs to use. I think I've finally come to some similar conclusions as the people who have posted here.

I think people will certainly feel an affinity with other people whose planets fall in compatable signs, but I guess the whole point of the "tight orbs" is the intensity of the aspect. So, like someone mentioned, a Scorpio sun at 15 degrees will probably have a stronger sense of connection with the Pisces sun at 15 degrees than with the Pisces sun at 2 degrees. But, I guess that's what makes all of this so interesting, because clearly that Scorpio sun isn't going to have the same connection with ALL Pisces suns, so the tighter orb helps explain this, I think.

I also think it's VERY valid to allow bigger orbs when dealing with faster moving planets, and I think it's one of the few things I HAVE seen some agreement on. Usually, the sun and moon are allowed a larger orb. But I agree that allowing a wide orb for some of those outer planets is a bit too much. If the orb is allowed to be too wide, you could have the same aspects with (in some cases) a whole generation of people! And, okay...maybe you do, but I think you will really only feel it with the very tight orbs so I don't give TOO much weight to those aspects otherwise (and usually only if they aspect personal planets).

That comment about the ASC is interesting. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere before but, again, it sounds perfectly reasonable to me!

Just some thoughts from a beginner. Take it for what it's worth! lol

posted November 09, 2007 09:15 AM              

What about planets that form a sort of "bridge"? What I mean is, interaspects in synastry involving natal aspects. For example:

Person A's saturn at 20 deg 2' Taurus
Person A's moon at 27 deg 33' Taurus
Person B's saturn at 0 deg 33' Gemini
Person B's moon at 9 deg 15' Gemini

Okay, so each person has saturn and moon conjunct natally. Using the idea of tight orbs (or even just sign compatibility) in synastry, the only aspect between these two is Person A's moon conjunct Person B's saturn. However, I think it's valid to say that ALL these planets form conjunctions with each other (even though they are out of orb AND sign) because the NATAL conjunctions are linked through that conjunction of Person A's moon and Person B's saturn.

Did that make any sense??? lol I would love to hear what people think of this. I think it shows the importance of looking at the big picture when comparing aspects between charts. You have to look at the natal charts as a whole, not just ONE planet aspecting another. Okay, I'm done now! lol

posted November 09, 2007 10:44 AM              

as for the orbs.. i remember once trying to develop a system of significance of each planet relating to another, rulership connections, houses, and of course orbs.. but i just confused myself though i do think such an undertaking could glean some interesting and helpful results. only, it might be impossible!

one thing i really like about noel tyl is that in his book 'synthesis and councelling' he constantly refers to patterns rather than orbs and he has mentioned a few times that if the pattern is obvious, the orb doesn't really matter so much, within reason of course.

posted November 09, 2007 12:00 PM              

I think that's an absolutely valid point for the natal chart, and I also think that even if you use orbs for the natal, they can and should be wider. (Not that a professional astrologer needs to be validated by little old me! lol)

But don't you think that when dealing with synastry, there has to be SOME greater significance placed on orbs? Otherwise, we would have synastry connections with the entire world! (Which is a lovely thought and which might be true on a philosophical level...lol...but still...)

posted November 10, 2007 12:12 AM              

Btw, I think you were pretty dead on with how this plays out...I can say that because I'M person B and person A is my SO.

posted November 10, 2007 04:59 AM              

I think that aspects within an orb of 3°-4° are the most intense ones.
My explanation for this is following:
Those aspects are triggered by transits at the same time, and therefore they come to the centre of attention at the same time, and if my Moon is triggered at the same time as someone elses Uranus (possibly in a square aspect), then quite different needs may "awaken"; a need to bond and feeling safe vs the need for change and independence. And if both persons act out their triggered needs, they might clash with each other.

Also, close aspects show that two individuals are closely connected to each other, whereas the wider the orb, the more person will have this aspect with you. And thus it looses "individuality".

But of course wider orbs still work; but I think they lack the intensity of the narrow orbs. But on the positive side, with wider orb you can be more objective and judge your own and the other`s reactions better. It`s like there`s some time between action and reaction,w hereas with an exact aspect the reaction follows the action instantly, without thinking, instinctively.

But I think there are some cases, when wider orbs makes sense. If you notice a pattern for example. Or if there`s a third planet as a "connector", like in the example mentioned above.
Or maybe even if the midpoint of those planets are triggered.

Just my 2 cents.

posted November 10, 2007 10:38 AM              

im One who like the wider orbs when i have some specific aspect that i do consider important and want so much for that to be taken into account hihihi

posted November 10, 2007 11:11 AM              

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Great views everybody!

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posted November 10, 2007 03:23 PM              

I really should have knowned that you have Scorp Influences...

posted November 10, 2007 03:50 PM            

There’s agreement with your sentiment/complaint from professional astrological writers

From Liz Greene’s “The Outer Planets and their Cycles” ~

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Audience: When you’re talking about generation influences, the influences of the outer planets, do you use larger orbs than those you would use for a natal chart?

Liz: No, I would use the same orbs, of around eight to ten degrees for conjunctions and squares and oppositions. But I think that two planets in the same sign, even if they are not technically conjuncting, tend to give some feeling of a conjunction. That is no different from the same thing in a natal chart. For example, during the two years or so that Saturn takes to move through a sign, there will be times when it isn’t quite in conjunction with an outer planet also passing through that sign. The two both retrograde and do a little dance back and forth together. I think there is some of the same feeling during those gaps, but it isn’t quite as intense an influence. A person with an exact or close conjunction will naturally feel the impact much more powerfully.

Audience: You would use an orb as wide as ten degrees?

Liz: Yes, particularly with a conjunction. There seems to be a lot of argument about orbs, and I can only tell you what I have learned to use from my own experience. I’m inclined to give importance wo wide aspects, but I would look quite carefully at which planets were involved. I would certainly use ten degrees for major aspects involving the Sun, Moon and Saturn. I also think it depends on where these planets are placed, so that if the Sun is, say, in the midheaven, it will be very prominent in the chart, and then I would consider that its sphere of influence is greater. I also suspect that it depends on the person. A very loose conjunction or square will give the same characteristics as a tight one, but they are more diluted, and the individual has more flexibility with it. Also, if he’s putting a lot of energy into working at that aspect, or developing it in his life, then it will become more obvious because it’s becoming more conscious.

An example of this might be a person with a wide Sun-Neptune trine or conjunction who decides to study music. Although the looseness of the aspect means there isn’t the same compulsive feeling, the fact that he’s trying to develop himself along the lines of the aspect means that it will become more important in his life. I know that a good many astrologers like using narrow orbs of six to eight degrees, but that is simply how I feel about it.

The same problem of orbs arises when you’re trying to interpret transits and progressions as well. Many people think of transits and progressions as operative only when they are exact. But I feel there is a period of build-up which goes on for quite a long time before the aspect is exact. You can smell it in the wind, so to speak, before it becomes apparent in your life. With a major progression such as that of the Sun over a natal planet, I think there is a three or four year build-up. It doesn’t just suddenly arrive one morning out of nowhere. The psyche has been preparing for it for some time. I feel we are sometimes a little too tight and literal in the way we work with orbs.

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quote:

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A square exists when two planets are separated by 90 degrees. But what if the separation between them is 91 degrees? Is that still a square?

Yes, it is. There is a certain sluggishness in all the aspects. Planets need not make precise geometric angles between themselves for the fireworks to begin. If they are within a few degrees, that is sufficient. That tolerance is called the aspect’s orb.

No orb can be defined rigidly. To attempt to nail them down is like trying to determine the exact day on which your kitten became a cat. It doesn’t work.

Precise aspects are by far the most powerful. But one that is out by 2 or 3 degrees is still extremely energetic. Five degrees is too strong to ignore. Six or 7, still effective, but definitely waning. Eight or 9, it is there, but so eroded that we can safely direct our attention elsewhere. If the aspect involves the Sun or the Moon, then stretch the orb by a degree or two. Those two are really the keys to individuality. Anything influencing them needs to be scrutinized with extra care.

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quote:

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As you sit reading this book, your body is immersed in a fluxing ocean of energy. You are flooded with invisible radiation of every wavelength. X-rays crash through you from pulsars and neutron stars hundreds of light-years away. Gamma rays rush up from decaying uranium in the earth’s core. Ultraviolet waves flung out from the exploding heart of the Sun cut into your cells. Not to mention the man-made stuff – all the penetrating energy put out by WABC and WHFS and WXYC. Disconcerting, huh? Yes, but only when we think about it. Otherwise, we would never notice any of that energy, except maybe the ultraviolet rays that cause our skin to blister after too many hours on the beach. Why? Because we are not tuned in. Our senses do not respond to those wavelengths. If we want to hear the broadcast, we need a radio.

Astrology works the same way. When a full Moon occurs in a given part of a certain sign – say the last few degrees of Sagittarius – one person might stand on her head while another sleeps through it. Looking at their birthcharts, we quickly see why. That degree of Sagittarius is the first woman’s Ascendant. For the second woman, it doesn’t represent a sensitive area at all – that part of Sagittarius is in an obscure corner of her sixth house and makes no important aspects to anything else on her chart. The first woman, in orther words, is “tuned in” to the last few degrees of Sagittarius while the second woman is not. Astrologically, that marks the difference between drifting through a forgettable weekend and moving to Katmandu under a false identity.

If your radio is tuned to 89.3 FM, that is what you hear. All the other stations still continue their transmission, but they simply pass though you unnoticed. Birthcharts are like defective radios – they are stuck on one station. They pick up every nuance of planetary radiation but only on that particular wavelength. Anything else might as well not exist.

The situation is a bit more complex, really. Each chart is actually affected somewhat by all the wavelengths, but often so slightly that for practical purposes we can ignore the impact. In a roomful of roaring chainsaws, no one is bothered by the buzz of a mosquito.

Someone, for example, with the Sun and three planets in Gemini is enlivened and perhaps shaken when Uranus passes through that sign. He is “on that wavelength.” When Uranus is passing through Capricorn or Cancer, its impact on that particular individual is much more subtle. There is still meaning to it, but in no way does it represent such a critical turning point in his life. Similarly, if a person has a couple of planets in the fourth house, the issues of that house – home, family, deep inner work – are important ones to her. Those fourth house planets represent a potential waiting to be triggered. When a planet moves through that part of her birthchart, significant steps are taken and realizations arise. The period is one of lasting importance to her. If, on the other hand, the same planet passes through an empty fourth house on some other person’s chart, very little occurs. There is far less potential there to be triggered. The period still has meaning and can be understrood astrologically. But our first step in understanding it lies in grasping its limited importance in the person’s overall developmental pattern.

If the birthchart itself is tuned to a particular issue, the impact of planetary motions triggering that issue is magnified dramatically.

There is another dimension in our ability to “tune in” astrological forces, one that is often overlooked in traditional texts. Say a woman is born with a chart in which the influence of Saturn is predominant. It lies in Capricorn, conjunct her Ascendant and opposed to her Sun. Saturn, in other words, is always with her, touching every corner of her life. She may respond positively, in a brave and self-regenerative way, learning the lessons of realism, self-sufficiency, and patience. Or she may take the low road, becoming cynical and depressed, as the fortune-tellers would predict. Either way, Saturn is the “master teacher” in her life. His stern hand influences all her affairs, ever-present and uncompromising. She is on Saturn’s wavelength no matter what that ringed planet is doing. She responds unmistakably even to fairly subtle changes in Saturn’s daily location. Why? Because no matter what Saturn does, she is listening.

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posted November 10, 2007 04:00 PM              

0-1 :very strong
1-2 :strong
2-5 :medium strong
5-8: mild

Though naturally if someone has an emotionally cool moon...it is possible they'd find someone with say Aries moon annoying (especially if they're crazy like Tyra Banks) - regardless of the orb

Or if someone is really open with every aspect of their life, dating someone closed and secretive can be a turn off

Or say someone who's emotional will appreciate a water Moon regardless of orb

posted November 10, 2007 07:48 PM            

I wondered the same when I first started getting deeper into astrology. I think I'm sort of a fundamentalist in some ways...I have to put things to a test in my own little world to see how they work.

I looked at the charts of people I know, first with tight orbs...then continually increased them. Some of their personality traits that were very predominant were at 4 and 5 degree orbs...while others with tighter orbs didn't manifest as strongly. Most of the time, though, the tighter aspects will win out.

This goes along with what Aqua said. It depends on lots of other factors and how the chart flows as a whole.

And I definitely agree that wide orbs can work when you're looking at a stellium or in planetary geometry.

posted November 12, 2007 08:51 AM              

I remember that you to are into Magi astrology.
Youve talked about a 5-6º concerning for example Saturn or Kiron - but you are excepting the case of Cinderela linkages right?Cause Magi only acepts up to 3ºorb - if i have a trine between kiron and other ´s venus in 6º - but also have a kiron skuare venus in 0º-then i have to accept only the ones thats exact.