posted December 10, 2006 05:16 AM         

and be with us all

Amen

posted December 10, 2006 11:29 AM         

How about distortion of the truth to suit personal agendas?
Mirandee never said things like you're saying she did and you're using any opportunity you can find to twist her words, to publicly humiliate her character, because you dislike her.

Cut the phony compassion crap.
If you had any compassion or true empathy you wouldn't be sitting in such stern self-righteous judgement of someone when they are at such a fragile time of sadness over the illness of a dear friend.

Thank you, Zala, for your brave and beautiful, big heart that tries to understand and remains open to believe.

posted December 10, 2006 11:37 AM         

look at your reflection

when you do the same, of which
you put others down for..

well, you know. ...

saying we are phony, Come On... .

posted December 10, 2006 11:57 AM         

I understand your loyalty....its very touching....

But I am not phony, just honest like you and Mirandee always insisted on.....wasnt the phrase you used "brutal honesty"

And why are you so angry Lia, I am, as you are, entitled to my own opinion..

And "cut the crap" doesnt really sit well with your usual poetic nature...no need to come down to this level girl.

posted December 10, 2006 09:42 PM         

I have finally come up with what I personally consider a practical idea to, on a primary level, clarify the subject matter passionately debated, and meanwhile, on a secondary level, also my intentions of posting what I had to say upon the issue at hand:

American Psychiatric Association www.psych.org

1000, Wilson Boulevard, Suite 1825, Arlington, VA 22209-3901

703-907-7322 or 800-368-5777
Fax: 703-907-1091
appi@psych.org

The definitive textbook for all American psychiatrists and those in many other countries in other parts of the world as well, the publication by American Psychiatric Association:

The book title is:

DSM-IV-TR
Mental Disorders
Diagnosis, Etiology and Treatment

With its text revision sister guide

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
Fourth Edition
Text Revision
DSM-IV-TR

Please feel free to contact American Psychiatric Association should you feel like doing so, and in case you are truly interested and care enough to really know what the personality disorders are about, and not be satisfied with distortion and manipulation of any sort, but the truth and the truth only-

At least, on the positive side, apparently so many of you seem curious and concerned about learning more on personality disorders. I have figured that the only way to bring the heated argument to an end, and a relatively constructive and positive one, is to simply give you the contact information of the authority of the psychiatric profession in the USA- American Psychiatric Association.

Please do ensure that should you gain access to a copy of DSM-IV, be it at a library, a med school library, or a bookstore- since those of you who have participated in the topic discussion initiated by Mirandee, once again, allow me to remind you that if you are truly, and earnestly interested in getting to know the personality disorders in their entirety, rather than partially and consequently incompletely, please make sure you read the entire chapter on personality disorders. This does take some time to finish reading, but it’s in English. If I can read it, then you can read it. No sweat.

I would like to gently but firmly remind you that in the chapter of personality disorders, certain other mental conditions are mentioned in order to discuss differential diagnosis, in other words, to urge the students or professionals to do their utmost not to misdiagnose patients, and such brought-up for comparison illnesses are schizophrenia, mood disorders with psychotic features, or other psychotic disorders, all either with or without influence from a general medical condition or induction from a substance; I strongly suggest that you would better read the whole chapters concerning the aforementioned mental illnesses as well, again- provided that you are interested in knowing the nature of these disorders for real, and not to form severely distorted and/or stereotypical, biased, assumed views. In so doing can you stand a better chance of benefiting yourselves and those that you know whom some of you folks have considered or concluded that have to do with such disorders. Please, the solution presented here is an easy one to use.

To sum up, when discussing personality disorders, in the case of our recent LL circulation of the multiple post started by the same person, one can without much difficulty to sense that the topic starter has been more engaged in speaking of narcissistic personality disorder than speaking of all the rest of those; the thread title indicates traits of narcissistic AND other personality disorders, with a list of over 40 so-called characteristics, which, to some of you, is evidently profoundly misleading as such a method of presenting these disorders only too easily cause the public to presume that the rest of the personality disorders might just as well all share more than enough traits with one single specific personality disorder or another, and in this instance, clearly it has been narcissistic personality disorder. Besides, if you read DSM-IV, which I am quite convinced that you can do as easily as you can get as long as you read English, you would be much better informed on all the subtlety and intricate, interconnected factors of the importance of, and prudence that required for, making accurate diagnosis on any specific personality disorder, but meanwhile also with principles to be taken into account and be treated with caution and taken seriously.

Please contact American Psychiatric Association if you are really interested in personality disorders and if you don’t like being misinformed and misunderstand either yourselves, your loved ones, or anybody else.
www.psych.org

posted December 11, 2006 01:52 AM         

In my opinion...

1. Many of the traits listed in the original post are indeed relevant to Narcissistic Personality Disorder albeit somewhat redundant e.g., 9,16 & 23; 19,37,38,30 & 44.

2. The traits, as D for Defiant stated, do not apply to all personality disorders. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is one of four disorders in a subset of personality disorders identified as Cluster B Personality Disorders. There are two other subsets, Cluster A and Cluster C that are clinically separate from each other.

For those interested in perusing the DSM, I'd like to offer my opinions on this as well.

1. Psychiatry/Psychology is part art, part science. It is not a "hard" science like Biology, Chemistry, etc. The DSM was developed as a set of guidelines to assist clinicians/investigators in reliably diagnosing/treating/studying various mental disorders. Despite this, mental health diagnoses remain subjective to a large degree. It is rarely black and white. This being said, no diagnosis should ever be taken lightly. In the DSM's "Cautionary Statement" they clearly state the following: "The proper use of these criteria requires specialized clinical training that provides both a body of knowledge and clinical skills." The DSM is not meant to be used like a cookbook filled with recipes of mental disorders. For example, as a clinician, we're trained to consider and/or investigate variables such as cultural norms, medical conditons, family history, etc. that may be mitigating factors in any diagnostic hypothesis we may be developing. Such factors are not necessarily available within the pages of the DSM.

2. Responsible clinicians have a hard enough time qualifying serious, complicated symptomology in order to arrive at appropriate, accurate diagnoses and often seek feedback from colleagues in order to support or differentiate the more complicated diagnoses, like personality disorders.

3. Personality disorders have a very poor prognosis. You can liken it to a life sentence most of the time. Along with some other psychiatric conditions, personality disorders are highly stigmatized diagnoses to attach to an individual. As with medical diagnoses, anyone not trained in this specific discipline/area should never consider labeling another with any sort of psychiatric diagnosis.

Information is power. We should all strive to use it wisely.

posted December 11, 2006 03:01 AM         

Thank you for the additional cautionary and the basic fine points regarding the use of DSM. I apologize for my careless mistake of trying to encourage people to read DSM by speaking of reading the clinical textbook in an overly light-hearted manner, and while doing so, I had completely forgotten that I was missing the critical fact that, DSM is a textbook for those who study and pursue the mental health care, mostly psychiatric medicine, profession(s), and also had forgotten that I was speaking from my own way-too-personal perspective as a learner of psychiatric medicine and a few other related fields but totally overlooked the probability that, for the average person, there should be a warning that, in simple terms, this is not about in which language this specific textbook is written, BUT the very fact that, under most circumstances, it is designed to serve as a reference for those in the profession(s) and certainly, NOT everyone can comprehend what is written in the pages of DSM plus what is NOT written in the pages of the book BUT which should be borne in mind at all times for the users (and besides DSM is definitely NOT the ONLY book the students of the related fields or the professionals are required to read. I am sorry that I sounded too optimistic. In any event, Maire31 is the saving grace here

But still, I could not, and still have much difficulty of, finding another way of trying to settle this by referring to American Psychiatric Association. Again, Maire31, I owe you much gratitude, and thanks again for helping us see more clearly.

Edit note:

P.S. Maire31,

I would like to ask your permission for me to quote your entire post in all my other mutiple post as part of additional editing at the bottom of each of the original posts, if better than as new messages, in light that certain individuals may feel that I'm "promoting" my threads in order to satisfy myself. Your message is essential. However, regretfully, this might not be able to wait any longer and I may quote your post before you could get to see this and get back to me. Anyway, thank you.

2nd additional editing:

posted December 11, 2006 04:01 AM         

Just to add this to give long-overdue (from myself) credit to Mysticaldream and Zala, the two beautiful (seeing your honorable spirit), wise, unbiased, logical as well as affectionate Libran ladies (you know the silly things I used to ramble about Librans, truly sorry)

Zala

posted December 11, 2006 04:32 AM         

There are so many theories and opinions out there, maybe it is a good idea to just stay away from labelling people with certain "illnesses". Despite extensive research, they are mans' mere observations.....which can result in inaccuracies.

Put a label on a person and it can immediately worsen the condition..."oh my God, I am a this, or that". We are all able to tune into our intuition, so when a person isn't right for us, we can use this power to detect that "something isnt right".

There are always "grey" areas.

We are not Gods....but mere mortals, with faults and weaknesses, as well as great strengths. We do not need labels.

posted December 11, 2006 11:21 AM         

You have to remember that these labels are very useful to people who are confused and need to find a bit of clarity so they can focus on healing or managing.

There is a balance of course, but from experience it's nessecary to have something to help define your pain.

posted December 11, 2006 11:43 AM         

I was certainly surprised to see your note about Librans, but it was welcomed nonetheless.

Sooz ~

We might all wish it were not so, but I think it’s human nature to box other humans up and slap a label on the box. But as Swerve says, there is a balance here, and I think many people (particularly those too lazy to deeply investigate anything or anyone) go overboard with labels. We were given the facilities of judgment and discernment so that we can determine what is of value, and what is “right or wrong” for each of us as individuals.

And labels can be positive. I’m an astrology student and mystic I’m a Libra I’m an INFP

posted December 11, 2006 12:16 PM         

Thanks for your understanding and gratitude, I'm glad to know you thought I might have helped. I think I've read all (I may have missed some) of the posts on this topic and in general, as I stated previously, I see a lot of merit in what both you and Mirandee had to say. I also agree with some of what Sue had to say. I really hesitated to send that post. I'm very new here and have already had a row with someone that got not just the two of us out of control, but plenty of others as well. Since then I've laid very low around here, mainly reading posts to absorb things. For all the humor, insight and love around here there are lots of squabbles - I guess that's life, eh?

I'm getting a little off topic now...

I don't know all the ins and outs of etiquette on LL and this is the only forum I've ever frequented so it's kind of hit or miss for me. I do try and use my manners as much as possible, but I'll never be perfect. I don't belong to any cliques around here which is fine, however it does bother me when I see, what I perceive to be, others attacking people under the smoke screen of defending friendship. This of course is NOT the same as someone offering a conflicting opinion about an issue. Indeed everyone is entitled to express their own opinions and rebuttals.

It's one thing to defend yourself against a direct personal attack, insult, etc., but I don't understand how others justify attacking, insulting, or insinuating something about another when nothing was directed at them personally in the first place. I think it's very divisive and serves only to fuel hostility. Online communication is highly precarious even in the best of circumstances, seems we all tend to lose sight of that at times.

I, as much as anyone else, enjoy a good argument but I prefer to fight my own battles. Unless asked, I choose not to speak for others. So for the record, if any of you see me arguing with anyone around here in the future please don't attack them or me (unless I attack you first, God forbid). Whenever I argue my intention is NOT to create factions amongst others. I'm simply arguing with someone about something that is personal to me alone.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I promise you this is not directed at anyone imparticular. They are simply my feelings on a collection of thoughts/impressions I've had over the last several weeks. If anyone does take offense to this I would ask you consider why you feel offended by me if I have not directed anything at you personally. My communications are bold enough that if I have a problem with you, I wouldn't hesitate to confront you (directly) on it. This is exactly how I got into that "row" I spoke of earlier in this post.

I am not asking anyone to change their behavior in general, just as it relates to me. I'm an Aries Sun/Merc...I don't hold grudges, I am quite forgiving (to myself and others) after that conflagration dies off.

I'm willing to take the risk of putting this out there in the hopes that some of you may begin to know me a little better. I hope it doesn't backfire, but if it does, I'll have to deal with it. I'm a brave little Aries.

posted December 11, 2006 01:53 PM         

But it's quite different to choose labels for ourselves, than to have so called "experts" label us

I could choose to call myself a Scorpio blah blah blah

But to have someone slap a medical label on me, cos it keeps me within the confines of a box...

posted December 11, 2006 02:23 PM         

It is right here:

"Lotus, Maybe it was Pidaua's negativity and her constant remarks about Ginny having brain damage that caused her cancer. Did you ever think of that? I mean with all your talk on the power of negativity and karma and all that one would think the thought might occur to you.
Evil wishes and hate directed at others can be a powerful thing."- Mirandee
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002922-3.html

"Pid can't take back her words. It is over and done with. But hopefully she would learn from this experience what harm her words can have on others. When she personally attacks people on the computer she has no way of knowing what is going on in the life of that person on the other side of her screen. Actually for that reason Pidaua could be endangering herself. It is no safer online to attack people verbally than it would be offline face to face. People can Google a map right to your doorstep so that is another reason why it is not a good idea. " http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002991.html

In fact the entire second thread was a direct attack on me and then we were treated to multiple "narcissist" threads, again, directed at me. See, when you call someone a narcissist repeatedly AND you then use those same descriptors in various threads aimed at "innocently" pointing out a disorder... it is evident what the intent actually is- are we just randomly being treated to information concerning a real live disorder? There wasn't even any relevant information attached to the actual disorder itself. Now anyone that questions the intent of these mulitple threads, which are lacking evidence from the psych associations, they are called liars and enablers.

In essence, blaming ME for a tragic circumstance because of vile words exchanged between myself and another knowflake. Vile words on BOTH parts.. or as juniperb said so eloquently;

"juniperb
Knowflake
Posts: 6187
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Mar 2002
posted December 04, 2006 12:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found I have the full 5 pages as well in my history.
Pids words speak for themselves. I do not defend them as I do not Rainbows. Both blades cut sharply. Tragically, Rainbows were being propagated by a physical illness.

__________________________

A narcissist does not say sorry nor do they reach out, apologize for their actions and wish to put a stop to the negative actions that continue on thread after thread along with more attacks. Someone with those qualities would actually feed off the negativity and use it to promote their own anger.

I attribute it to grief... and I have been staying away from these episodes. But there is a time when I feel like I need to defend myself and expose the actions of those that continue to blame me for things I didn't do or threaten me with veiled violence as though I don't realize that I could anger someone online, such as here, and have them google where I live.

This is in line with that same person telling me they will go 8 Mile on me and knock me down. How many threats should I take before finally getting angry - or is it now proper to be so hypocritical that we can blame one knowflake for making stupid remarks yet not only everyone else accountable?

"Now are you really sure your are a "strong" enough woman to take me on, Pidaua? I don't think so. I think all you are is a loud mouthed trouble maker and a coward who wouldn't dare say the things or do the things to people in your offline life that you do on the internet for fear of being knocked down. Because personally lady, I come from Detroit, grew up on the 8 mile corridor, and I would have knocked you on your smart a$$ long ago if you did. I may be 60 but I am still in good shape.

If you want some more b!tch slapping just keep coming at me, Pidaua. I will gladly oblige you. But if you are half as smart as you say you are, I wouldn't recommend it. This was mild compared to what I can lay on you. " http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002922-2.html

The last post was a full week before anything happened. This was just pure Mirandee at her worst yet not taking responsibility for it. So if had been the victim of a violent crime two days after that statement- would others be able to blame Mirandee?

posted December 11, 2006 02:36 PM         

Lia is a relative of Mirandee- she is her daughter.

Mirandee
Knowflake
Posts: 1965
From: South of the Thumb Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
Registered: Sep 2004
posted December 04, 2006 11:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly I do understand your defense of your wife. I admire that and would expect no less of you. It is the same as my daughter defense of me. I actually wish Lia hadn't done that because now she is taking the heat too and she does not deserve that at all.

posted December 11, 2006 02:40 PM         

O don't know about you guys, But something
really deceptive is going on here...

this click of reenforcing Mirandee's negative
behaviour is really strange..makes me think of KS...
it's all the same circle...except..they never come full circle and forgive..and stop the negative circle
then they keep the negativity going...

I Don't know anyMore..But I am meditating
on getting to the bottom of this...

people with more than one user name,
manipulation..and just ddark in general
trying to coat themSelves in sugar
BitterSweet, if you ask ME. ...

The Truth will be Revealed..there is no
More hiding..we will all be exposed..so

Do the right thing!

posted December 11, 2006 02:57 PM         

I think the bittersweetness comes from some of the statements, vile statements, made about knowflakes and then when brought to everyone's attention here, several people actually defended the right for people to make those comments.

YET... it does nothing to bring in the negativity. I can't blame anyone here that has said something nasty or mean to me, if I became sick. My words were terrible and I meant the apology and I still think of Rainbow and her pain. I understood the anger in Mirandee because of her loss and sadness that is so incredibly strong when you have a sick or dying friend. It is only when the same thing keeps coming up and I am made to be causitive agent for something so horrendous.

I am tired of the veiled threats, the whole 'I can find out where you live... or others will' and what? Attack me? Cause me physical or emotional pain? For what? Me saying something incredibly stupid yet it was currently taking place?

If I was a narcissist I never would have apologized and posted in a thread where I knew I would get heat from some people. I never would have sat back while others took punches at me, blaming me for these things and yet still I refused to call names or say anything evil. I feel horrible about a fellow knowflake regardless of how we interacted. And I say "WE" because WE were both pretty damn mean to each other.

I pray that we can all move on and stop laying blame on anothers doorstep to mask our anger and hurt.

posted December 11, 2006 03:07 PM         

I'm just tired of all the excuses...
it seems it's all we hear, excuses
for the bad behaviour...

well, we're all adults and it's time
to act responsibly..with Goodness of Heart

I spend several hours a day focusing My
Energy for the Good of ALL...

At some point someone around here
has to be stern, certain behavior
should not be allowed, especially
all the swearing, even if it's masked

and attacks, shouldn't even happen,
we should be able to talk to One
another in a civil manner...

whoever loses there Temper, should go
in Time-Out! AHahahahahahahaha
to MySelf and past behaviourS

when I look back at the past here, in LL
I wish I could have done and said things differently,

perhaps, when we post, we should ask OurSelves, before submitting...
Is this my final draft???

posted December 11, 2006 03:19 PM         

Pid....you have apologised more than once...what you did and how you spoke to others wasnt always right, but you have the courage to say SORRY....

It is clear to see that you have taken a long look at yourself and decided to "grow"..

And for that I take my hat off to you!!!

posted December 11, 2006 03:22 PM         

You and I used to go at it like hammer and tongue (haha), I cant remember calling you names...but we did used to butt heads A LOT....

posted December 11, 2006 03:27 PM         

Yes, The Taurus and Scorpio
in US...at least
two corners are balanced
ahahahahaha

posted December 11, 2006 03:52 PM         

Each and every one of us have a multitude of labels bestowed upon us. From the moment we are born, we are labeled.

In my opinion...

Labels, in their truest sense are necessary to define things. How else would we communicate information if not for labels?

For example, this entire forum is predicated on labels from our screenames to our astrological aspects. I think the problem with labels arises when the plasticity of the human spirit is compromised by using a label to exclusively define a person. It seems to me the world has become so much more literal (P.C. if you will) with the globalization of communications. Perhaps a necessary evil. I often find myself hesitating to "label" anything exclusively but that does not prevent me from labeling (or identifying) a set of criteria so that I may more effectively communicate concepts.

Most often people tend to use labels as a form of shorthand. Is there an easier way to convey a set of conditions someone is experiencing other than using a label? What I'm trying to illustrate here is it's not easy nor necessarily effective to identify every criterion of a situation to avoid using a label. My son's head hurts, he says his nose feels all stuffed up, he complains his throat feels itchy, his eyes appear glassy, his voice sounds gruff, he tells me he feels very tired. So hmmm, what might be going on with this kid? If I don't use the appropriate medical label none of you would definitively know what is happening to him. He has a cat allergy. That seems innocuous enough.

Problem is when people DEFINE people by a label...saying 'Jane Doe is a Narcissist' is irresponsible. She's completely self-absorbed, she has difficulty accepting and adhering to social rules, she is not always truthful, she's constantly in the mirror admiring herself, she always thinks she's right, she's preoccupied with her own needs and desires often at the expense of those she supposedly cares about, she shirks her responsibilities and is not remorseful about it. Some might say wow, classic Narcissistic Personality Disorder. WRONG! Jane Doe is merely a teen experiencing narcissistic behaviors that often exist during "adolescence". Without labeling the BEHAVIORS as narcissistic (NOT her ESSENCE) how else could we define Jane's behaviors accurately?

I will admit I'm sensitive to negative generalizations of the medical arts because I work very hard to be sensitive with those I work with. I know all too well there are many, many irresponsible practitioners out there that give their professions a bad rap (just like like attorneys, etc, can as well)but those sort of generalizations aren't fair to apply globally. Funny, it's that whole labeling thing again. I just wanted to illustrate the good and bad of labeling. I certainly see both sides of the argument. A blessing and a curse