posted September 20, 2013 06:04 AM            

From my perspective knowing another person happens over time.. Like I said I have strong Cappy influence.. so time is important to me.

I usually take my time and slowly get to know the people I get close to.
If you have a friend for 5 years and you know them well and have deep conversations - of course you will know that friend better than someone they have dated for a week.
That is just one example.

People are not that changeable. Since we are talking about men.. I'll mention "men" - but a lot of it applies to women as well.
So - a man who has moral standards, will not be a "saint" with his friends and family while behaving badly towards his romantic partners.
You can usually tell (over time) whether someone has moral standards or not and whether they treat others how they would like to be treated (or not).

You just have to watch their behaviour and get to know them ^.

quote:

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elaborate.

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Well - do you think when someone chooses to play games that it shows a lack of respect for *personhood*?

posted September 20, 2013 06:06 AM            

quote:

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most people in the dating world

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Again with the "most"...

*facepalm*

In the Western dating world?
In the NY City dating world?

Which dating world?
And which age group?
And what social/financial status?

O_O

posted September 20, 2013 06:08 AM            

quote:

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If the "most" and the "many" - were replaced with "some" or "a bunch".. I wouldn't have commented here at all.

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posted September 20, 2013 08:24 AM            

If you want authenticity, be authentic. If the other person doesn't reciprocate, move on. Learn to discern between a confident man that has a a positive self worth and one that 'relies' on things for their self-worth.

An emotionally mature man may will just walk away from all the mind games or if they actually like you, will call you out on your BS. If you take it personally, then you didn't deserve him in the first place.

Only immature men will ignore a woman because they think it will get them 'hotter' for him and only insecure women would really try and get the attraction of such men.

posted September 20, 2013 08:49 AM            

quote:

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Only immature men will ignore a woman because they think it will get them 'hotter' for him and only insecure women would really try and get the attraction of such men.

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Exactly.

I think some people read 'immature' and are not sure what it means. Because they react by saying "well they are all immature".. or "where are the mature men?" - not just on this thread.. I've seen others say this kind of thing on LL.

Personally... when I say "immature" in this context - I am referring to an individual who hasn't really been through enough experiences in life to *understand* how others work on a psychological level and to be more aware of the things that 'really matter' in life.

This is a phase of 'immaturity' when people think they are invincible and they live as though they'll never die (as though they'll never get ill & they'll never have any problems)... They don't appreciate the things they do have (like youth, health, friends, romantic/sexual partners) - because they think there will always be more where that came from.
It's a very childish way to see the world.

posted September 20, 2013 02:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SDragon:
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but at the end of the day, we get the wool pulled over our heads because we allow it to be.

If you want authenticity, be authentic. If the other person doesn't reciprocate, move on. Learn to discern between a confident man that has a a positive self worth and one that 'relies' on things for their self-worth.

An emotionally mature man may will just walk away from all the mind games or if they actually like you, will call you out on your BS. If you take it personally, then you didn't deserve him in the first place.

Only immature men will ignore a woman because they think it will get them 'hotter' for him and only insecure women would really try and get the attraction of such men.

When we contact our higher selves, we know whether someone compliments us, but when we let our ego desires override that contact, that's when we tend to get in trouble.

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God. I you and don't even know you.

posted September 20, 2013 05:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
Hikoro -

You just have to watch their behaviour and get to know them ^.

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i dont think we will agree here.
i think that it is basic psychology that a male friend will act towards you differently if you date them versus if you don't date them, there are things that this man will show you, present to you differently, when dating, compared to if you were only a friend.
this is not hard to grasp.
countless of people do horrific things and friends and family are horrified by that. "no, he/she would never do that" but this is not surprising. as humans, we show different facets to friends, family dates. it is human nature. that is the core fact that distinguishes and defines our relationships, that acquaintanceships for example, are not the same as friendships, and that your relationship with a spouse, is not the same as the relationship with a friend.
i think that you are also missing the essence of intimacy. very crucial.
but i understand that because of your cappy nature, you may not be able to see the forest for the trees.

i recall you stating that you dont date. this thread is mostly about people who date. i dunno, but, it can come across as slightly condescending to make judgments about a circumstance you yourself dont experience often....dating.
one of the things im very careful about is dismissing people's experiences and pov because i have not experienced them or do things differently, often times, doing this, can come off as being holier than thou or having a stronger moral/wiser ground and even, victim blaming the person who ended up with a broken heart because "i would have known better and would have been more careful in choosing so...you sort of brought it up unto yourself"
as someone who has seen both sides of the coin. im being sensitive towards this subject because...well, im trying to place myself in their shoes.
do know that i dont subscribe to the following: just world hypothesis, law of attraction, karma.
good things happen to good and bad people
bad things happen to good and bad people

ironically, whenever a similar topic is brought around in real life, often times than not, people who tend to be on the other side of the spectrum, are either people like you, who cant relate fully to what the topic is about or, the group the topic tends to complain about...in this case men, and sdragon...well..it is obvious.
just an observation.

i may be biased though. most of the folks i know, whether male or female, seem to have poorer relationships with their fathers than with their mothers, i think that if you generalize that seems to be the case, globally. so, i question if this complaints on "men" may shed some light as to the fact i rarely meet men who look up to their fathers, and related complaints on fatherhood. and that maybe, this "men issue" is beyond dating patterns.

quote:

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Well - do you think when someone chooses to play games that it shows a lack of respect for *personhood*?

Because they are treating others as though they just *are* their genitalia.. They put them in a box... "men are like this"... "women are like that"... and they no longer treat them as a *person* or an individual...

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there are many factors, that imo, are involved in this.
the extreme individualism in western society, especially in the USA.
it seems that to me, in the USA, people in relationships are more likely to treat each other like gadgets. new updated gadgets are launched. time to get the new gadget = girlfriend/boyfriend.
there is also the media, which imo, perpetuates a distrust and antagonism between the sexes and genders.
and, there is the loss of emotional innocence too, not sexual innocence.
person a is hurt by person c.
person a meets person d, who was hurt by person e.
what i see is that once some people lose their emotional innocence, they become afraid or distrustful or...place people at an arms length.
so, we are having hurt people getting together and unconsciously not acting but reacting. instead of, "im going to do this", it is more of "im not going to do this in case of". so because person a got hurt by person c, person a is going to project that pain, that loss of emotional innocence toward person d, and person d will do that to person a because of person d's experience with person e. nobody is completely letting themselves go anymore. everybody is keeping a t-it for tat system and being wary.
even people who were hurt, may meet a wonderful person, and instead of feeling grateful, they will hurt that wonderful person, again...projecting that hurt...so, it becomes a domino effect then, alas, that wonderful person will no longer be much of an optimist.
im not saying caution is bad though....but yep...
and i will add, that this is not something affecting hetero relationships solely.

posted September 20, 2013 07:07 PM            

quote:

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i dont think we will agree here.

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We have different views on what "knowing someone" constitutes..
As I said getting to know someone from my perspective happens over time.
You get to know people - the way they behave, what they would do and would not do in a situation - by watching, listening, learning - and using your intuition.
This is completely regardless of whether they are male or female and whether you are having sex with them or not.

Whether you are a friend or whether you are dating someone - you can either know them well - or be oblivious to *who* they are deep down.
It depends on your ability to interact, get close - and truly see someone on a deeper level.. and also *ask the right questions* at the right time.

As I said - I must repeat this once again..
People are not so changeable..
If someone has moral standards of behaviour - then they will apply those moral standards in their interaction with others - both on a romantic level and as friends only.

The reason I don't date is (partially) - because dating in general - is actually not a very good way to get to know someone, not in the way I want to know them.

And the kinds of games mentioned in the first post could only happen between two people who do not respect each other and do not actually "know" each other on any level.
Because if there was mutual respect - they wouldn't be behaving in that manner.

Taking your time to really talk to someone and - befriending them... and then having things turn romantic later on (if/when they do) --- is much more conductive to truly *knowing* them, as opposed to just dating, for the sake of dating.

quote:

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i recall you stating that you dont date. this thread is mostly about people who date.

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Well a lot of blanket statements were made in the initial post - which go beyond the dating context...
There were several wide generalisations about male behaviour -- As though this is apparently the *only* way to have a relationship with a guy. *facepalm*

It's beyond childish/immature and slightly disturbing that some people truly believe that this is the only way for men and women to get together romantically.

My posts are obviously based on my own experience and my own opinions. I am not at all trying to be objective.
As I said - everyone's opinions on this thread (and opinions in general) are always subjective.

quote:

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your relationship with a spouse, is not the same as the relationship with a friend.

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That completely depends on the person and the way they see their friends and their spouse or romantic partner.

I am definitely not a very romantic person.. and I don't overly romanticise "love".. so for me friends and lovers can be just as close and know me just as well - and I can also know them.
The extent to which you know someone - depends on the extent to which you *click* with them (whether or not you are on the same wavelength) and also the length of time you know them.

quote:

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i think that you are also missing the essence of intimacy. very crucial.

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Intimacy means different things to different people.
The essence of intimacy for me is not romance or sex.

quote:

---

victim blaming the person who ended up with a broken heart because

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I do find this "playing games" behaviour immature in general - but I am not blaming anyone involved. I just think they need to grow up.

I am actually not interested in the behaviour as such.

What bothers me about this thread are the huge generalisations.. in saying that "most men are exactly like this".

These generalisations are very untrue and silly.
So my posts here are directed at that in particular.
They are not directed at blaming anyone at all.

quote:

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there are many factors, that imo, are involved in this.
the extreme individualism in western society, especially in the USA.
it seems that to me, in the USA, people in relationships are more likely to treat each other like gadgets. new updated gadgets are launched. time to get the new gadget = girlfriend/boyfriend.
there is also the media, which imo, perpetuates a distrust and antagonism between the sexes and genders.

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posted September 20, 2013 07:11 PM            

quote:

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I am stating as a moderator that if someone shares something here I expect the offering to be treated with kindness and respect and gentle understanding.

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There have been no posts in this thread that are any less kind or less respectful then just about any other thread on LL - on similar topics.

No one has personally attacked any other poster here.
As far as I have read (although I did not read every single post in detail) - there haven't been any infringements of LL rules.

posted September 20, 2013 11:46 PM            

I would like this forum to remain gentle and soft, like the loving arms of a mother or lover. I wasn't as soft with my first comment. I was hurt for Gypsee and stunned by the interaction. Yes, it is different here. I am glad you understand. Spirited debate is AWESOME, that's why we have diverse forums. This forum is girlfriends talking at lunch about why he left, or guy friends fishing in a boat just sitting together because their buddy's wife just died, or a lover holding your hand and stroking your hair because you had a fight with your mom.... just comfort and support in all of its different guises. It is unique to each person, yet the same. It's about falling in love and wondering if he'll call or she will accept...

When people post here there is usually a lot of emotion behind the post, even if you can't see it, you can feel it if you approach it in that spirit.
When you CAN see it, there is usually too much emotion so a more down to earth approach helps ground the person. I am really glad you are all here. REALLY glad. I just ask that everyone remain true to the spirit of the forum. Add your flavor of support, just remember it is about support. Other places in the world are for competition and The Race. This place is for resting and being weak and sharing your Truths and sadness and Knowing that you will be safe and protected even if you are not thinking clearly. That's what makes it different.
Someone might come in here and start a thread called "ALL MEN ARE JERKS!!!" and that's not cool or true... but they are in pain and say something crazy in their confusion etc. It is an exaggerated example, but has happened.
Maybe that explanation helps everyone to understand why I was so disappointed. It is not personal. I don't remember any of the posters names on the thread here other than the original poster and Dragon (cool name, hard to forget). I was objecting to the overall tone that turned this forum into just another thread somewhere else here, only with the words "Soul Unions" at the top. I am defending the soul of this forum and the beautiful souls who contribute to it. I love all of the responses I am seeing on threads here.

This is where our souls unite.

posted September 21, 2013 12:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic Melody:
True.

I would like this forum to remain gentle and soft, like the loving arms of a mother or lover. I wasn't as soft with my first comment. I was hurt for Gypsee and stunned by the interaction. Yes, it is different here. I am glad you understand. Spirited debate is AWESOME, that's why we have diverse forums. This forum is girlfriends talking at lunch about why he left, or guy friends fishing in a boat just sitting together because their buddy's wife just died, or a lover holding your hand and stroking your hair because you had a fight with your mom.... just comfort and support in all of its different guises. It is unique to each person, yet the same. It's about falling in love and wondering if he'll call or she will accept...

When people post here there is usually a lot of emotion behind the post, even if you can't see it, you can feel it if you approach it in that spirit.
When you CAN see it, there is usually too much emotion so a more down to earth approach helps ground the person. I am really glad you are all here. REALLY glad. I just ask that everyone remain true to the spirit of the forum. Add your flavor of support, just remember it is about support. Other places in the world are for competition and The Race. This place is for resting and being weak and sharing your Truths and sadness and Knowing that you will be safe and protected even if you are not thinking clearly. That's what makes it different.
Someone might come in here and start a thread called "ALL MEN ARE JERKS!!!" and that's not cool or true... but they are in pain and say something crazy in their confusion etc. It is an exaggerated example, but has happened.
Maybe that explanation helps everyone to understand why I was so disappointed. It is not personal. I don't remember any of the posters names on the thread here other than the original poster and Dragon (cool name, hard to forget). I was objecting to the overall tone that turned this forum into just another thread somewhere else here, only with the words "Soul Unions" at the top. I am defending the soul of this forum and the beautiful souls who contribute to it. I love all of the responses I am seeing on threads here.

This is where our souls unite.

---

posted September 21, 2013 10:45 AM            

As a follow up, and maybe to give others a different perspective of why the topic garnered the reaction that it did, I'd like everyone to change their viewpoint and consider it from this angle. Let's say that the majority of posts were not from women but were from men complaining that women are always leaving them high and dry, being indecisive and really don't seem interested in being in a relationship.

So then a thread gets created about PUA and how women are biologically geared towards men with resources and the alpha male mentality so that's the real way to 'date' women.

1. Always dress classy and make sure they know you're well off
2. Flirt with other women because women instinctively appreciate competition for a guy's attention
3. Don't listen to women's 'problems' because you don't want to be put into their 'friend' category
4. The more you ignore them, the more attracted they'll be to you - that's why women really do like the bad guy
5. etc

posted September 21, 2013 08:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic Melody:
True.

I would like this forum to remain gentle and soft, like the loving arms of a mother or lover. I wasn't as soft with my first comment. I was hurt for Gypsee and stunned by the interaction. Yes, it is different here. I am glad you understand. Spirited debate is AWESOME, that's why we have diverse forums. This forum is girlfriends talking at lunch about why he left, or guy friends fishing in a boat just sitting together because their buddy's wife just died, or a lover holding your hand and stroking your hair because you had a fight with your mom.... just comfort and support in all of its different guises. It is unique to each person, yet the same. It's about falling in love and wondering if he'll call or she will accept...

When people post here there is usually a lot of emotion behind the post, even if you can't see it, you can feel it if you approach it in that spirit.
When you CAN see it, there is usually too much emotion so a more down to earth approach helps ground the person. I am really glad you are all here. REALLY glad. I just ask that everyone remain true to the spirit of the forum. Add your flavor of support, just remember it is about support. Other places in the world are for competition and The Race. This place is for resting and being weak and sharing your Truths and sadness and Knowing that you will be safe and protected even if you are not thinking clearly. That's what makes it different.
Someone might come in here and start a thread called "ALL MEN ARE JERKS!!!" and that's not cool or true... but they are in pain and say something crazy in their confusion etc. It is an exaggerated example, but has happened.
Maybe that explanation helps everyone to understand why I was so disappointed. It is not personal. I don't remember any of the posters names on the thread here other than the original poster and Dragon (cool name, hard to forget). I was objecting to the overall tone that turned this forum into just another thread somewhere else here, only with the words "Soul Unions" at the top. I am defending the soul of this forum and the beautiful souls who contribute to it. I love all of the responses I am seeing on threads here.

This is where our souls unite.

---

thanks mm!
i completely understand what you mean.
and, i apologize for derailing things.
i do think that gypsee has a point for posting the post...and, although i have my issues with the article. i get the general gist of it all, and what other members who sympathize with the article wrote.
i think that unfortunately, instead of reading between the lines and seeing the bigger picture, in some way, the thread became a playground to nitpick what some posters wrote (and the op) apart and to dismiss and invalidate their experiences and emotions. thus, it makes sense that instead of 'listening and understanding' (the purpose of this forum), the thread turned into an arena for 'mental gymnastics'

posted September 21, 2013 10:20 PM            

quote:

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i completely understand what you mean.
and, i apologize for derailing things.

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Personally, I can't see anything wrong with this thread at all or the posts in it.
But I do feel like it is much more suited to Sweet Peas

quote:

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dismiss and invalidate their experiences and emotions

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Was this ^ and the "mental gymnastics" part about myself - or other posters in general?

If it is about myself - broad generalisations bother me, mainly when they are so blatantly incorrect.
Saying "most" men - means.. by definition 50%+ ... and come on! Lets be honest here! This is simply not true.

My replies are not dismissing anyone's experiences.. My replies are dismissing the word "most" which implies - statistically over 50%... which is simply not the case.. but if anyone has research to the contrary - they can always post it.

It is not about mental gymnastics. Generalisations (like the ones in the initial post - slamming "men" in general in the same basket)... can have many negative consequences - on the more naive readers out there who might take-in such generalisations and act on them, hence causing much strife in their own lives and the lives of others.

This is my reason for taking it seriously - and not brushing it off.
Because if this kind of advice... was not so damaging - I would not care.

But it can be very damaging for people who read that and go out and behave this way - and ruin the possibility of a perfectly good relationship.

As I was saying to Dragon - if all the men and women of the world played the dumb games they are advised to play in these kinds of articles - NO ONE would EVER get together. Ever.

posted September 22, 2013 03:28 AM            

quote:

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It's all down to treating yourself like a prize

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Unless the guy has strong influence in one of these signs:

Cancer (because they'll never chase),

Leo (because they think *they're* the prize),

Virgo (because they already have a daytime job and *you* are not it) - and...

Capricorn (because they don't have time for such bs).

quote:

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and not being at a man's beck and call.

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Unless they have influences in...

Aries (because they are way too impatient to wait around for you)
Taurus (because it takes too much effort to chase someone up all the time.. and the bull can be lazy)
Cancer (because they will just interpret it as rejection and cry about it... not as a challenge)
Virgo (because once again.. they already have a job and dealing with your games is not on their 'to do' list)
Scorpio - (because they'll see right through that and they'll just think you are a weak person who doesn't have the strength to be real with them)
Capricorn (because.. they're too old for this sh*t)

quote:

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Have opinions, be a challenge (mentally)

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Ok.. So now that rules out a couple as well -

Guys with:

Taurus influence - might get quickly sick and tired of all the debates..

Cancer influence - again will take it as a rejection or think you have something against them and take it extra personally..

Scorpio influence - again - if it is an 'act', they'll see right through it and think you are a weak person for putting on an act in the first place... instead of just being WHO you are.
If you are naturally opinionated.. that's another story.

quote:

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being light hearted and quick on your feet.

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Well we know Taurus-influence is out on this as well! Since they won't be catching anything that is 'quick' on their feet.. when they are so naturally *slow*

Cancer influence - does not do 'lighthearted'. They are much too emotional to like anyone who is 'lighthearted'.

Leo - no 'lighthearted' people need apply. Leos are passionate people with a strong backbone.

Scorpio - No comment. Speaks for itself.... I am tempted to post a scary photo and say: "this is what scorpios do to lighthearted people" LOL ... but I won't haha

Capricorn - Because all this lighthearted, quick on their feet stuff... makes one seem highly unreliable.

quote:

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Guys don't want to feel like you're pining after them.

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Right... Cancer's gone! Obvious reasons.. because anyone with Cancer influence needs reassurance and if you are not pining over them enough.. they assume you don't actually like them at all.

Leo is gone! Leo influence needs a lot of attention - otherwise your relationship with them fizzles.

Scorpio - will know you're putting on an act so they'll think you are dishonest.. but other than that they also love emotional women.. so if you seem too cold - it won't be long until the Scorpio-influenced person walks out the door.

posted September 22, 2013 04:16 AM            

Being a prize is having respect and valuing urself not to take bs and setting healthy boundaries.

Beck and call and the pining comment referred to having your own life and not having it revolve around a guy.

Being a challenge (mentally) does not mean picking arguments but being someone who has a backbone, has opinions and isn't someone who is a yes girl.

Light hearted pertained to being chill, relaxed and not overly melodramatic and emotionally all over the place.