posted October 17, 2002 05:23 AM              

I believe your destiny is that upon which you decide with your guides before you are born. Karma is part of it but the idea is that we decide before we incarnate what we want to achieve in this life time. It might be something simple or something profound, whatever you need to advance yourself. We choose our lessons and the people we will encounter. But then we are born and although we might remember some of these things early in life we soon forget and here comes the free will. We can choose to see the signals and signposts in our life or to ignore it. That is why we sometimes feel so lost and at other times things just happen and life is easy. When we follow our path(which is our soul choice) we tend to be happy and feel fulfilled. Astrology holds the key to our choices. It can give us insight into the choices we made before as well as the hidden talents we have to achieve them. The natal chart is a blueprint of who we are, where we come from and where we are going. All you have to do is open your mind and your heart to receive the message.

posted October 17, 2002 06:03 PM              

If we recall the Newtonian "billiard-ball" mechanical model of the Universe, everything is cause and effect. Whatever happens is the result of what came before it, pure and simple. This was thought to apply to everything from atoms and molecules to stars and planets and to human thoughts and events as well. It was a very tidy picture.

In this model, if one knew the exact position and momentum of every particle in the Universe, one could predict the future with absolute certainty, because from moment to moment everything that happened was totally dependent on what had come before.

And, although relativity and quantum physics have shown us that the Newtonian model breaks down on very large scales or very tiny scales, on the level of ordinary human observation and experience, it was a very accurate model, and still is.

I believe that this understanding is essentially the "karmic" view of reality. (And don't forget that Newton was a dedicated astrologer!) Although karma adds the elements of reincarnation, consciousness and human "meaning" to the model, it basically says the same thing: everything unfolds according to pure cause and effect. If you completely understand this moment, you will understand everything about the future, because the succession between this moment and any future moment is an unbroken string of cause and effect. What happens now is the cause of what will happen tomorrow, which in turn becomes the cause of what happens the next day ... and the next year ... and the next lifetime. Perfectly ordered, perfectly predictable.

In this view every action has an equal but opposite reaction: what goes up, must come down. If I am a tyrant in this life, I will be a victim in a future life. That's karma.

The missing element here is free will - let's call it something that enters the picture from OUTSIDE the system. Perhaps it is our "God nature" entering the material world from OUTSIDE the karmic chain of cause and effect, through wich I can CHOOSE to act in a way that is NOT completely dependent on what came before.

If you hit me, my natural reaction, built into genetics and biology and physics and everything else on the material plane, is to hit you back. That's pretty mecanical, pretty automatic. And my action in hitting you back will in turn become the cause of a new cycle of cause and effect, and so on and so forth. But what if I somehow manage to choose to step outside of the system, and instead of doing what comes "naturally" (e.g., hitting you back), I choose to turn the other cheek? WOW! Something NEW has entered the system, something that could not have been accounted for by the chain of cause and effect! By that choice, I have altered my karma, and changed my future!

So. To me, astrology is an accurate picture of past, present and future (MINUS) the element of free will. As long as I go along with the forces that are unfolding in my life, reacting predictably to the transits that come my way, and to the state of my health, education, personality and everything else I am up to this moment, then the transits and progressions will accurately predict what will happen to me ... just as Newton's billiard ball world will let me predict with absolute certainty where the Sun will be on February 17 of 2045. But if I can come to understand myself and my chart and the cycles of unfoldment of which I am a part on a deep enough level, and then CHOOSE to act in a way that is NOT the "path of least resistance" at some critical moment, then I can change the ultimate outcome of that chain of cause and effect, and have a different outcome from what is predicted by the transits. This is what Linda meant by becoming "free" of your chart if you can come to understand it deeply enough!

Now, having said that, I think it's a mistake to glibly dismiss karma and simply say "oh, I have free will, therefore I'm not bound by karma." Because in fact, almost all of us, almost all of the time, do NOT exercise our free will, even when we think we are. For example, I may go home at night and flip on the TV. I don't like what's on, so I switch it to something else. Free will, right? Wrong. What makes me not like that particular program, and what makes me prefer another, are all factors that are built in to my personality and experience. I have the ILLUSION that I am "choosing" what to watch, but in fact I am merely expressing all the dynamics that are programmed into me, and "choosing" what I am programmed to choose at that moment! This state of perpetual "sleepwalking," of following the path of least resistance and doing whatever our impulses drive us to do in any given circumstance, is NOT expressing free will, and this is our normal state of consciousness. That, to me, is the whole point of spiritual seeking and the search for "enlightenment" is to be able to step OUT of our programmed mode of existence and genuinely choose freely for ourselves. It is a very difficult thing, and very rare. Spiritual study, meditation, and deep self-examination CAN bring us to a state of being able to step outside that sleepwalking mode, but it is far from easy or trivial. And unless and until we DO expend that effort on spiritual growth, and DO attain some level of "awakening," then we actually ARE bound by karma and destiny, only imagining that we are directing the course of our own lives, but actually being pushed along every step of the way according to what has gone before (both in this life and previous lives).

That's how I see it!

posted October 17, 2002 07:29 PM              

I am in agreement with most of the schools of thought already posted here, and in particular with Greg's previous post. I don't have much to add that differs, but I would like to say that the magnitude of thought involved in this sort of topic is very similar to asking "what is the meaning of life?" or "where did it all start?". For instance, I know karma exists as I've experienced it. But when/where exactly did it start?

It reminds me of why I was and maybe still am mostly agnostic (although not atheist ), because there are so many possible answers that the right answer could almost be anything! It makes me speculate that possibly we are not supposed to know while in "physical" form, which I guess would be one reason why you could say that life is "lessons". You can't really learn when you know the answers!

Anyway, I like the idea that Free Will is an aspect of life that can be used to "break the mold" so to speak. For example, you can transcend karma with Free Will. Also, I truly believe that Destiny & Fate are at work in my life and I feel they are related to the lessons I need (or agreed) to learn. Those forces (Destiny, Fate) put me in situations I have agreed to experience or learn. I don't really know, but I get the feeling that this is a bit how it works just by taking note of my experiences.

Whatever it is, I KNOW it is not chaos or random, but instead seems very orchestrated. I can accept that...

posted October 18, 2002 07:56 AM              

I want to go to Chicago and I go on the internet and get a route map from one of the travel sites. That report tells and shows me the best route to take from St. Louis to Chicago. It includes shortcuts, detours etc.. Lets equate the route map with the natal chart. It contains all possibilities pro and con for that specific route.

I start driving, and realize that there is a lot of road work up a head and I will have to deal with delays and frustrations (Transits)if I just follow the original route. (destiny)

However, I can get a map and find a different route that will get me past the road work (free Will).

Lets say that I want to stop at a place on the way, but it would require me staying on the original route. Knowing that there are going to be delays, I buy an audio tape to liston too, so I can stay relaxed as I travel through the road workd area. (preparing for transits)

On the drive through the road work, I see a little town and decide to stop off for lunch. I meet a girl, fall in love, and settle down, never getting to Chicago.

my question is did I get to where I was suppose to be by free will, destiny, or thoughtful consideration of my transits?

just some thoughts

Lanny

posted October 18, 2002 10:49 AM              

i am married, for 9 years now, and was very happily married up until a few years ago...i discovered things about my husband that are none perfect for a married man to be like. These discoveries slowly began to put me in a "coffin", day by day, I put another part of myself inside this box and spent many a night gathering the dirt, scratching, to get it together, to cover myself with, and yes, there were many a night, i wished and hoped i would not wake up the next day.

But....FATE had it's way with me, FATE placed people, namely Amber and Kian in my life at JUST THE RIGHT TIME. They listened to me, they held me uplifted, when I found the ground to be higher up than i really wanted. They let me cry, they let me scream, and whine and release...

Not only Amber and Kian entered my life but many others as well, and each person had a specific part to play towards getting me to...well,...to HERE. To the HERE AND NOW. When FATES winds blow, you can count on NOT knowning where you are going....but it will never just drop you into a situation that cannot be controlled by you, for isn't that the purpose of FATE? For you to LEARN from what the universe is wanting you to experience?

I literally "fell" into this message board, never having heard of Linda Goodman...but yet I am here...and am learning so much already...was it FATE that brought me here? Of course it was. But what happened when I let my feelings override my intellect and let another person here destroy the feelings I was having for the board and everyone on it? I allowed FREEWILL to control the reins for a while, while FATE stood back, patiently waiting, for me to come back to my senses. Are some instances just mere mishaps or do you miss things that can never be grasped again?

I tend to believe that life sometimes is a mishap, but if we can stop trying to control every single thing that happens in our lives and be HAPPY with what DESTINY wants to bring to us, then maybe, just maybe the colors of your life's rainbow will be so much more beautiful.

In my life, my HEAD is ruled by FREE WILL ....but my HEART...is ruled by FATE and DESTINY... for it's my HEART that breaks and aches and bleeds and cries when I am sad, seemingly beyond repair, when my FREE WILL has done something that my FATE disagrees with...

Did that make ANY sense at all? Sometimes I just ramble..

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When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall, always.

- Mahatma Gandhi

posted November 11, 2002 02:54 PM              

This is interesting because I am now deeply engrossed in a book called "Quantum Astrology," by Rick Levine (who is involved in the website www.stariq.com). He talks about much of what Greg put forth in his post but with a different outcome.

Rick believes that indeed the Newtonian view of the world does break down under the new rules of Quantum Physics. And he uses the Heisenberg "Uncertaintly Principle" to argue this.

Because I'm not a scientist, I'll keep it simple (since that's all I can do

We are all vibrations, everything in the universe (yes even humans). As such we operate in two modes, as a particle and as a wave. When we operate as a particle, Newton rocks. When we operate as a wave, cause and effect fall apart. As well, Quantum scientists have found out that the act of observing something changes it!

Now this new information is interesting to astrologers because karma is for us who are acting in the world as particles, who therefore experience cause and effect (and I consider myself one of them). When we act as the wave, we understand existence more along the lines of the Eastern Philosophy idea of Nirvana. We are not experiencing cause and effect but totality. Those Buddhists are so smart!!!

As well, those studying quantum physics believe that time is a spiral and not a straight line (this fits in so well with the spiral nature of our universe). If time is a spiral, one can move up or down the spiral at will (as opposed to a straight line). This is my understanding of many of Linda Goodman's theories in Star Signs.

Now, please all scientists reading this, realize I am not a trained scientist, but one who is grasping the concepts. I look forward to more information on this. I am also, once again amazed at the synchronicity of the universe....as I grapple with these ideas, here they are being discussed on this forum. Life is grand huh?

posted February 24, 2003 01:29 AM              

I am learning alot! I don't really have anything to contribute, I feel I have to much to learn to even have a set view point on these matters. I do know I have experienced karma, which has all been ultimately good, because the hard stuff was stuff I needed to learn, and the good stuff was my gift for what I have given.

I have just gotten out of a relationship and this was a gift to me. I do not know if it was my free will to leave or my free will to stay, but whatever the heck it was I am so grateful. Life is so interesting, hard but wonderful too.

posted February 27, 2003 01:02 AM            

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

posted March 14, 2003 03:05 PM              

I think that a definition and philosophy of free will is an _essential_ partner to astrology. A fatalistic sense can undermine all the goodness and usefulness of the astrological tool and system, and that's when astrology is represented at its worst -- as just another way to categorize and label people and events, when instead it's a rich source of information and insight for guiding one's life, and hopefully evolution! So however you define it, there needs to be an understanding of yourself, or soul, or free will, or ability to choose.

We get given a certain set of parameters in life, as we choose a body in which to incarnate. Certain DNA, social conditions, and natal astrological benchmarks. Like Greg and others mention, passivity can lead to sleepwalking through the chart of your own life, whereas you can use free will to lift yourself to consciousness. We are creating the conditions of our lives all the time.

IMHO!