posted December 13, 2002 02:48 PM              

so its very important in that case to split society up into smaller modules, if you like, that when added together keep a self-sufficient culture running even when isolated from each other.

The theory of capitalism also works that way, although the way its panned out means people are forced to do things they dont want to, aren't good at, and generally suffer in life as a result.

Now im not arguing that in EVERY case everyone will have some particular skill usefull to a collective whole, but USUALLY they will.

posted December 13, 2002 06:19 PM            

In America, a capitalistic society ( but with such a huge government we are bordering on Socialistic) we are taught to pursue our dreams, to accomplish was we desire. For me, it was Biology / Chemistry, which I have always loved. In this society I also found my talent in the area of marketing of the scientific products we developed, which has also been rewarding financially and on a personal basis.

So, should someone want to succeed, we encourage that person to obtain the skills necessary for their chosen field. Our society also offers the freedom to switch careers and follow a new dream.

We will always have problems, but for the most part. One of the biggest problems that I see comes from our overly inflated government which cows down to it's employees. I have worked for the state and private sectors and what I found was gross abuse of system in the government positions. From Universities that employed borderline felons that couldn't be terminated, to it's abuse of taxpayers money for research that was useless. In private companies we see people trying to make the bottom line, please the shareholders and pay lower wages. BUT, the person is still free to leave and get a job elsewhere with a bigger paycheck.

In these government jobs a person with no drive and half a wit can make three times as much as a Microbiologist can in that institution, so the scientist finds a better job in the private sector. The government is lethargic and bloated with people that do not have any motivation and they can't get rid of them.

So in the society of which you speak, everyone pulls the same share all contributing to the whole. They live in the same exact way, making the same amount financially (or not, but living in the same standards). It fails, because as humans there will always be lazy jerks that realize that they do not have to work as hard to recieve the same benefits. When that happens the hard worker starts to resent what is happening and in turn forms a party that revolts against the lazy people.

Meanwhile, the people overseeing the collective is the group that wins all the spoils as the rest of the collective works to make someone fat.

What communism fails to address is the free will and ego of the very people that would make up the group. It can only exist in small communities where a group agrees to let go of their ego and their desires and work for some kind of idealism that does not exist.

It is my belief that such a society goes against our very human nature and animal nature for that matter.

posted December 13, 2002 09:13 PM              

Explain that to the person flipping burgers for a living because they were too sensitive to survive a corporate interview. and DO NOT say thats "their problem" - its a cop out and you should know it.

quote:

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In America, a capitalistic society ( but with such a huge government we are bordering on Socialistic) we are taught to pursue our dreams, to accomplish was we desire. For me, it was Biology / Chemistry, which I have always loved. In this society I also found my talent in the area of marketing of the scientific products we developed, which has also been rewarding financially and on a personal basis.

---

How dare you say the US is bordering on socialist! the war on terror is merely a fron to expand you commercial interest into the middle east and wipe out yet another way of life fundamentally opposed to yours.

quote:

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So, should someone want to succeed, we encourage that person to obtain the skills necessary for their chosen field. Our society also offers the freedom to switch careers and follow a new dream.

---

Yep...so long as you have the cash to back up a new education. And the UK is rapidly falling down the same plughole.

quote:

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We will always have problems, but for the most part. One of the biggest problems that I see comes from our overly inflated government which cows down to it's employees. I have worked for the state and private sectors and what I found was gross abuse of system in the government positions. From Universities that employed borderline felons that couldn't be terminated, to it's abuse of taxpayers money for research that was useless. In private companies we see people trying to make the bottom line, please the shareholders and pay lower wages. BUT, the person is still free to leave and get a job elsewhere with a bigger paycheck.

---

Exactly...but your altruistic motives only go halfway. do the whole thing or dont do it at all - halfway=a broken system.

quote:

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In these government jobs a person with no drive and half a wit can make three times as much as a Microbiologist can in that institution, so the scientist finds a better job in the private sector. The government is lethargic and bloated with people that do not have any motivation and they can't get rid of them.

---

I have very little motivation and drive, but i dont think its my fault. I might be wrong, who knows? What i can say is at the moment i couldnt bring a child into this world because that would be worse than murder. Thats how I feel.

quote:

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So in the society of which you speak, everyone pulls the same share all contributing to the whole. They live in the same exact way, making the same amount financially (or not, but living in the same standards). It fails, because as humans there will always be lazy jerks that realize that they do not have to work as hard to recieve the same benefits. When that happens the hard worker starts to resent what is happening and in turn forms a party that revolts against the lazy people.

---

Of course it'd take time, but thats an irrationalisation because the kind of society im talking about wouldnt have anyone not pulling their weight because they would realise the value of what they could bring to the collective.

quote:

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Meanwhile, the people overseeing the collective is the group that wins all the spoils as the rest of the collective works to make someone fat.

---

Ever read the Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy? good idea: managers are hired in by the employees who own shares in the company instead of the other way round. interesting, no?

quote:

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What communism fails to address is the free will and ego of the very people that would make up the group. It can only exist in small communities where a group agrees to let go of their ego and their desires and work for some kind of idealism that does not exist.

---

Capitalism fails to address this also - in fact it embraces it, lol

quote:

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It is my belief that such a society goes against our very human nature and animal nature for that matter.

---

wow, thats a cop-out to an otherwise half-intelligent argument "we're like this, so lets' not bother"

Now before you reply, im waaay drunk, and i wouldnt normally say this to anyone. not that its an excuse but hey...what the hell.

posted December 14, 2002 01:08 AM            

Anyway, I must disagree and I have already pointed out why your vision is flawed. It all goes back to basic human nature. Even in the animal kingdom there is a fair amount of competition. For those that do not perform, they are kicked out, even in the monkey / ape societies..I know this because I LOVE monkeys!!!!

The burger flipper has a choice. Now, you must remember I am a lab geek working for a corporation. I have gone through those interviews and I have put others through the interviews from hell. (That would be the one where the interviewee goes before a board). It is one thing to be sensitive or shy and we can detect that, it is another thing to be inept.

How does communism allow for personal freedom of expression? What do you do when you are working twice as hard, because you are a proud worker, and then you realize you are actually picking up the slack of a few around you?

How would you address the issue of the person that must go to school for 8 years plus in order to become a doctors just so that he can make the same as the newspaper boy?

posted December 14, 2002 01:49 AM              

A slightly older woman in one of my entry-level Lit courses had grown-up the daughter of a man in the diplomatic corps, and at some point he was posted in the USSR. She told us that one day she and her dad were having lunch w/ a Russian physician, when her pop asked, "Don't you feel resentful that you contribute so much more to society than the man who picks garbage off the streets, and yet you get paid no more?" The Doctor replied, "How does he contribute less? If it weren't for his work, people would get continually get sick from the filth surrounding them; I only heal those who are ill - he prevents much illness from occuring."

posted December 14, 2002 08:03 AM              

"The mark of a civilised individual is the repression of detrimental qualities in favour of better ones"

Or something like that...i cant remember the exact wording (stupid hangover!)

My point is, saying its human nature is acknowledging the problem but refusing to do anything about it.

posted December 14, 2002 11:44 AM            

That was truly uncalled for and you had no right to insult me as if I am nothing more than a spoiled rich child demanding attention.

First off, I am not rich. I have earned my salary and invested well as have my parents. My father and his family, growing up American Indian and Hispanic in South Texas did what most of other hispanics did in that area and that is pick fruit, cotton, carrots and so on from state to state. He was a migrant worker that went on to Vietnam, made the Green Beret and jumped out of planes while watching his friends die when they hit land mines. His family relocated to SoCal, they have all earned higher degrees, putting themselves through school and a majority of them are also conservative.

In my fathers case he went on into law enforcement and has worked his way up into a top position. My mother's family was the same, coming from a modest ag background in Kansas. They are all successful because in our family we encourage success and hard work and we do not coddle spoiled behavior.

As for me, my parents did not pay my way through school. They did send me care packages, as any good family would, but I paid my way through scholarships, small grants and student loans. I chose to go to a private university because the curriculum was back breaking and forced me to get two degrees. I am proudly paying off my student loans, which totaled the cost of your average BMW.

As for your inane attempt to chastise me for my support of the beef industry I have one thing to say:

If God didn't want us to eat animals why would he make them out of MEAT!

I have been to feedlot around the country as well as dairy farms. It is part of what I do for my job in working with the people in the industry. Those damn beef cows are taking care of in a very humane manner and actually have a pretty easy life for a cow. They eat the best food, live in prime conditions and they are not wacked over the head before slaughter.

I suggest before you start posting websites for me to view you get your sorry ass to a cattle ranch, dairy or feedlot and really see how those animals are raised. Hell, those cows are raised better than some children in this country. When was the last time you saw a fat cattleman or woman? When was the last time you saw a fat farmer, other than pig farmers?

I have spent my life working in emergency animals hospitals as a tech to put myself through school and went on the run the Veterinary diagnostic lab at UMAB in order to keep the animals healthy. I love animals and would never condone any mistreatment of them. I also know what is needed for the body and how to properly raise them. If I felt there was rampant abuse, I would not support the industry.

Why in the hell do you think I haven't pushed for the poultry or swine industry at all?
So, fine, hate me if that is what makes you feel like a better person.

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"Lahn dádzaayú nahikai leh ni' nyelíí k'ehge," Goyathlay (Geronimo)

posted December 14, 2002 02:09 PM            

The reason I work in the cattle industry is to teach the representatives how to use a product that was developed by my company, where I personally conducted field and lab research. The product is an environmentally friendly pesticide that is 100% biodegradable and alleviates the use of the harsh chemical pesticides. I personally jump into those damp cattle pens and work in the crap to design the best way for those ranchers and dairymen to use the product. Part of my work is to develop methods to keep the ranches and lots clean to decrease the need for pesticides as a whole.

I chose to do this because I feel deeply about the world we live in as do the cattle people I work with. They are way ahead of the game working with the EPA, USDA and other agencies to keep things clean. A bad ranch is a dead ranch, so why would they destroy the land. I attend the meetings and work with the regulating agencies to make sure our product is not only safe, but also meets the strict organic requirements. I have put my money where my mouth is and strive to make a difference by working in the industries instead of just sitting on my ass bitching about them.

That is more than I can say for some of the wacknuts that get jobs with the EPA and other regulating agencies just so that they can shut down waterways and restrict access to forests based on false reports and underhanded methods. One only has to look at the Northwest to see the damage lies can do to a town that lost its water rights and the ability to grow crops due to someones false document in the name of "saving the environment". I personally knew one of the families that lost everything but couldn't even get welfare because they owned land. Land that couldn't feed anyone.

Then there was the BS about saving the lynx. Yeah that was great, cut off the use of major land because some idealistic lying Biologist placed lynx fur in strategic areas to say that it proved it was the natural habitat. Funny, DNA came to that rescue and showed that it came from a captive lynx down south.

Let's not even get into the "save the wolf" argument that has been twisted by the wacknuts at the expense of cattlemen's herds. Last count the idiot in charge in Idaho had to admit they falsified the numbers. For every one wolf documented there were 10 not accounted for via electronic chip. No wonder hundreds of calves each year were lost per ranch. Nobody reimbursed the farmer and he wasn't allowed to protect his property.

I believe in saving our animals and land. There are ways to do it and I am doing my part to help in that fight.

As far as eating meat goes, my people have been any meat for centuries and I will continue to do so. American beef is raised to top standard and I believe in it.

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"Lahn dádzaayú nahikai leh ni' nyelíí k'ehge," Goyathlay (Geronimo)

posted December 14, 2002 03:05 PM              

Embryonic stem cell research. Well, you can control the growth of such cells through hormones, boom.

Easy, just grow whatever you want to in a sodding vat, you aren't killing anything, and it (almost) grows on trees. Result:

We get our big fat steaks and the cows get to munch grass in peace.

posted December 14, 2002 04:22 PM              

I get your point and if it helps any i've gone off chicken quite a bit since we got some hens at home..

I dont condone the mass-murder ideas, however I also dont think a totally vegan diet is the way to go.

We have the technology - i say lets use it?

posted December 15, 2002 12:32 PM            

Carlo, I expected as much from you. I was waiting for you to throw in the Saturn opposition as if to make me question if my logic should be questioned and old beliefs thrown to the side. So much like a Virgo.

I will be passing through Tulare and Visalia..that would be where the dairy farms are and guess what? Wouldn't you know it, I have worked with those very farms and representatives. Remember I was born and raised in that country. I watched as the environmentalists pushed out the dairies of Corona, Norco and Downey in order and replaced them with houses and caused more pollution than bovine effluent.

I used to visit the dairy farms as a child with my family as well as Knotts Berry Farm before the roller coasters.

You will not change my logic or beliefs. I have worked on those farms, ranches and feedlots. I have also spent too many conversations with the PETA, ALF and other animal rights terrorists and they couldn't change my mind. The reason, they did not have their facts straight. They had not spent any time working within the field or trying to find ways to make things easier and safer.

It is so easy to say, "Meat is Murder" it is much harder to find an alternative and promote it. Guess you all leave that to the real scientists. Then again, maybe that is why Nw_Evil so idealistically states: "Oh just grow it in a sod vat".

I will have a great time in So cal and Nevada. There is a great steak house in one of my favorite casinos. The chef uses the best USDA Prime Steak - Certified Angus, born and raised in the good old USA. A move that is highly recommended by the NCBA.

You can bet I will not shed a tear when I eat that steak. No more than you all will shed a tear when a scientist is murdered by one of your loyal ALF or one of your misguided doe eyed PETA dorks lets loose monkeys with a communicable disease into society.

Have a great holiday season and thank you for proving the point that there is no such thing as an open minded liberal. Once you don't like what I say, the insults just flow. LOL...nice touch Carlo.

By the way, I never said I would follow Trent Lott. It is my nature to listen, evaluate and then decide.

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"Lahn dádzaayú nahikai leh ni' nyelíí k'ehge," Goyathlay (Geronimo)

posted December 15, 2002 08:09 PM              

Really I happen to know exactly what molecular biology is, and that it takes years, thanks for the newsflash!

posted December 16, 2002 03:58 PM              

Carlo, that comment about giving old men ass kisses was a bit strong. Stop the insults, please, and I think you owe pidaua an apology.

posted December 16, 2002 04:30 PM              

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
Imagine no possessions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say Im a dreamer,
But Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

(Let me tell you now)
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
Revolution, Evolution, Masturbation, Flagellation, Regulation,
Integrations, mediations, United Nations, congratulations
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance