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Author Topic:   ...pokes head out, blinks, places foot on ground, clears throat....
N_wEvil
unregistered
posted March 20, 2003 12:24 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
lost leo - utter rubbish; as the next ten years will probably prove.

Individuals have had to work together as teams to accomplish anything since way before i was born, such is the complexity of the tasks most humans handle today. However, I beleive that given a couple of months good training almost anyone could switch tasks and probably do it just as well, if their heart was in it.

Putting the current regime on a little pedestal and worshipping it is all well and good.....for some people, but it certainly isn't my kettle of fish, not that i like fish at all.

NOBODY is that good, and they probably dont have a clue of what they're doing (ever read the foundation trilogy by asimov? somehow i think we'd know if they cracked psychohistory!)

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Lost Leo
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posted March 20, 2003 12:29 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NO, it takes YEARS of education, YEARS of experience in the military, YEARS of experience in the government to be able to handle these situations succesfully.
(That's why politicians are so old, they have to amass experience)


You COULD NOT run the government in a couple months, give me a break

PS - I'm not worshipping my regime or yours or whatever... I'm explaining the FACT that our elected representatives, in whatever country, are HIGHLY qualified & BETTER qualified to handle these decisions, so let's put some trust in them rather than always being critical... it's easy to be critical anyone can do it... & essentially we're being critical of ourselves since we put them in power.

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N_wEvil
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posted March 20, 2003 12:33 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
then as such maybe the current organisation is rather inefficient?

and as i said, its units of groups of people...not just me - don't twist what i just said, it wasn't a claim that *I* could run the govornment.

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Lost Leo
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posted March 21, 2003 03:57 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I beleive that given a couple of months good training ALMOST ANYONE could switch tasks and probably do it just as well, if their heart was in it"

-...hmmm, uhm ya, ok, whatever

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Quinnie
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posted March 21, 2003 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Quinnie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe this is way off, but this nebulous feeling, Proxieme, I'm getting it too and it's very weird! It's almost like we're on a tv station and the picture is starting to looses it's reception.
Another thing I feel is like the parallel Universe thing, it's like theres a real shift in the atmosphere and opinions etc. are shifting into it's oppostion or something. I read somewhere recently that Earth's Pole is shifting and Saudi Arabia is now the New North Pole!
But it's seems that theres a different kind of communication goin on,other than words and actions, a subtle kind of message like perhaps are we maybe being re-programmed in some way?
Why is that in every channel on tv here you can basically watch the war like u're there. You can't escape from it almost.
I think the Uranus moving into Pisces is an explanation alright, it feels like we're in a movie now and watching ourselves while we're in it.

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proxieme
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posted March 21, 2003 03:43 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah! That's a good analogy!
I used to live near a huge Marine base, and for me this is like when on a cloudy day reception of some TV channels would go iffy and we'd get a ghost of sound from a band being used by the military.
I'm that close to being able to make it out, it's just...

It's like there's this whole sound and light show going on

~*over here*~

to distract us from what's going on

________________________________________________________*over here*.

I'm not saying that the above mentioned show is the war or conflict in general; it encompases so much more.
Nor am I saying that it's a result of purposeful actions by any government, group, or individual - it just is.

It's so frustrating -
and invigorating, as it's a wonderful challenge (but, again, I don't know if that's simply a result on me of Uranus' new position, and - if it is - if it's all in my head or if a new awareness has been brought to the fore).

Thank you, thank you, thank you Quinnie for responding

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proxieme
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posted March 21, 2003 03:43 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another case of the weird-o double-posties

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Quinnie
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posted March 21, 2003 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Quinnie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Proxieme again maybe I'm being way-off but again I'm thinking perhaps the war situation is needed to heighten peoples emotions, the sensitivites of our minds will be more mouldable (if thats a word), I think that we are opening up to other channels of communication... telepathy maybe?
I read somewhere again ( I'm always readin something somewhere) that by the year 2012 all human beings will be telepaths! But thats just something I've read.
This is way off the more 'grounded' perceptions of the war and I don't mean to take away from the reality of it,but this feeling is hard to ignore.


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Lost Leo
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posted March 21, 2003 06:42 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Recently I've been taught an explanation for this doctrine & I'd like to share it:
(I first posted this in another thread but wanted to share w/ as many as possible, maybe spread a little hope)

Fukiyama (plagiarizer of Hegel), "It is the end of history, The battle of the ideologies is over. Liberal Democracy has won over communism(Cold War) & fascism(WWII)"

Nations, being Asian, Western or Eastern European, or North or South American (& even Africa once they stabilize) have all started to liberalize their economies & governments in hopes of interconnecting the world & globalizing, which would hopefully raise the bar for standard of living in all third world countries (still theory & still debatable, but so far the theory is working).

Now Rumsfield, probably the staunchest conservative in the government has expressed this ideal since the 80s to liberalize gov'ts when the opportunity presents itself.

Right now they are seeing an opportunity to have this dream realized & possibility the reverse of the "domino theory" of the Cold War will occur. Instead of one democratic gov't falling causing more to fall, one more liberal democratic government rises & then more follow.

Liberalization includes the advocation of a state governed by the people, a gov't elected by the people, & an economy of free trade without government actors that exploit their country's natural resources for their own gain. Essentially liberalize control over economy which spreads the wealth of a country's natural resources among the people.

What Rumsfield, Bush, & the Western gov'ts are genuinely attempted to do is integrate the world as one liberlized democracy & economy where all countries are interconnected & eventually the sovereignty of the "nation-state" (even the USA) yields the a higher int'l authority following the rules of economic prosperity for example: (Which I'll post later)

Destruction of Islamic fundamentalists, War on terrorism, search for oil, disarmament of Iraq, are all faulty reasons to advocate the one greater ideal, that has quite a vision for the future. But one of positivity & a collective prosperity for the world.

I'm sure there are a million & a half arguments to demonize the US & our gov'ts & their political actors which would make this idea seem futile.

But I just wanted to present this vision of the future so people may at least know of it & consider it.

I mean THERE IS a h*e*ll of a lot the governments of the world do not tell the people of the world what their true goals are, they are REALLY EDUCATED & STUDIED in these matters & it wouldn't be too bad to...
just for a moment...
Consider maybe they do have a plan for the future & these pithy events are simply stepping stones to its realization???

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N_wEvil
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posted March 21, 2003 07:04 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yep..considered it.

I still beleive they don't have a clue though - if they did, well, either its a truth nobodies' going to like and they're just LOOKING incompetent because they make so many screwups!

Surely if the govornment were that omnipotent and godlike you wouldn't get two sets of traffic lights 5 meters away from each other (I've seen it happen....)?

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QueenofSheeba
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posted March 21, 2003 08:02 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lost Leo- I have some comments.
First, it has been calculated by the UN that the amount need to garauntee everyone in the world a decent living standard would be about 40 billion (do you disbelieve this figure?). If the US gov really wants to make the world a better place, why not spend that money? It's definately in our power, and I think that we definately should try.

Second, just because someone is exploiting a country's resources does not mean that the country's resident's are benefitting. for example, take the Sudan. Sudan has been having civil wars for years, and Sudan also has a lot of oil; foreign companies are drilling this oil and presumably paying the government for it, but the common people of Sudan still live in horrible conditions. I'm not saying that these wars or the misery of the Sudanese is the fault of the oil companies. What I am showing is that simply exploiting a countries resources is not enough to garauntee its citizens happiness.

Now, if a country is to exploit its own resources, it should be done by local companies- not foreign. They can sell the product to foreigners, of course, but doing it the home way heps the companies form conscientiouss environmental policy and stimulate the home economies.

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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Lost Leo
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posted March 21, 2003 08:18 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"just because someone is exploiting a country's resources does not mean that the country's resident's are benefitting"

Huh?

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Harpyr
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posted March 22, 2003 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

LL,
Let me spell it out for you..
Argentina was supposed to be a poster child for globalization and what did we see there?

Privatization of the water supply that led to prices so high that the common person couldn't afford WATER.
Hundreds of thousands of people rioting in the street because their own water had been taken away from them by 'liberal democracy'.

It doesn't work.

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Lost Leo
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posted March 23, 2003 12:15 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Harpyr, you've prove my point TO THE T

First, in Argentina an elite private upper class exploited the loans rec'd from the IMF (International Monetary Fund) & the Global Bank thru the UN.

That private upper class exploited a resource (water in this case) to take loan money & put it into their personal accounts.

Second, look at the big perspective...
Argentine is one country on one continent in the whole world...
How about Taiwan, Costa Rica, Hong Kong, Singapore, Eastern European country's. They are are examples of successful transitions of liberal democracy (of course at different speeds), they have raised the standard of living for all their peoples

Third, So you're saying democracy or (liberal democracy) doesn't work???
Let me get this straight, the ideology that allows people true freedom, impact on their state & gov't... doesn't work???
Sure, there's economic inequality, but overall the bar is raised for all.
What? You want total complete economic equality? Without a liberal democracy... hmm you know what that is... and its failed already... It's called COMMUNISM!!!

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proxieme
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posted March 23, 2003 01:14 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think that she's saying that the imposition of a full-fledged liberal democracy upon countries w/o a sufficiently developed economic base is a shakey proposition at best(since democracy, as defined by the US, is pretty dependant on having a capitalist base).
Look at, oh, I dunno, Africa.
Or much of the Middle East, for that matter.

Although, I've gotta say that in that region Iraq has the best chances of pulling it off - they were pretty much there before 1979. Now it's primarily a matter of how well they'll fare in the current political/religious climate. The past 12 years have allowed for a disturbing upswing in Fundamentalism in that country - those involved and their compatriots will most likely not take a government shaped by the West (and the US especially) kindly.

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N_wEvil
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posted March 23, 2003 07:20 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
LL - it hasnt been tried, they turned into dicatorships or autocracies very quickly.

and i wouldnt say capitalism is doing a brilliant job considering that ol' suicide rate is still creeping up....

i mean what kind of a crap culture dies out because everyone feels so hopeless living in it? lol

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QueenofSheeba
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posted March 23, 2003 02:10 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh no LL, liberal democracy works- no contest there. The first step is to have a stable government to run the country. After that, the economic growth can happen safely, because there's a gov in place to regulate it and make sure that no- on is grossly exploited. And then once the country has a good economy and everyone's living tolerably, the country is a success. But the gvernment has to come first- corporations running around on their own tend not to benefit anyone but the corporations.

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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QueenofSheeba
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posted March 23, 2003 02:26 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another thing, LL- before, you seemed to be arguing that we should trust our government implicitly and assume that they know what they're doing. You seem to think that they are all- knowing, great fonts of wisdom, and that we are all ignorant little bumpkins who can't even think.

Well people, ARE we ignorant little bumpkins who can't even think? I would say not. Our leaders, for all their experience, are just as human and fallible as we are. They make mistakes. They are subject to irrational fears and unrealistic dreams. They may even be- perish the thought!- vulnerable to dishonorable things like corruption or bribery. So we need to watch them and make sure that they don't do anything stupid, and we are perfectly capable of reflecting on their actions and judging them.

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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Lost Leo
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posted March 25, 2003 12:00 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Possibly QoS... Possibly...

I would hope with all our tax dollars & all their mental & physical resources they would be able to guide us in the right direction.

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theFajita3
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posted March 25, 2003 01:04 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
me too!

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food is the only art that nourishes!

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QueenofSheeba
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posted March 25, 2003 03:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ditto. Not all presidents are created equal, you know...

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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Randall
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From: The Goober Galaxy
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posted March 25, 2003 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
America has a Virgo ASC? Cool!

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Alena
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posted March 29, 2003 06:42 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just thinking about the original post on this thread made by Proxie. Hmmm, does anyone else have the feeling of a kind of domino effect this situation in Iraq has created? I mean that the world is undergoing some kind of cataclysmic change. I don't necessarily mean in a political way either.

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fishy
unregistered
posted March 29, 2003 07:35 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After reading all these posts I wonder why so many of you are paranoid about your government.You live in a country that allows freedom of speech, freedom of movement.Maybe everyone watches too many movies where governments are constantly into devious plots, too much media involvement most of it negative.No country or government is perfect you could live in a lot worse.
I feel all this negativity towards the government helps the terrorist cause along.
love and light to all

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted March 29, 2003 11:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone heard that the earth's rotation is slowing down, one second per day???? And what that might mean?

Has anyone heard that the poles are getting warmer??? *sigh*....

...has anyone heard that a giant planet might be headed our way? Not to hit us, but to come close enough to us, to cause unimaginable havoc? Could this be what the BIGGER PICTURE might be?

...just wondering....*sigh*

Luv,
Rainbow~

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