posted April 11, 2003 03:30 PM            

Thank you very much! LOL, I have this thing about debating. I sometimes look at it as a form of foreplay. LOL.... For us fire signs and those with strong fire in their chart. There is something arousing to a good verbal / passionate debate.

posted April 11, 2003 05:20 PM              

"I'm pretty sick of hearing this tired argument of how we need to 'liberate' Iraq by blowing up tens of thousands of them"
-Even the misinformation of the Iraqi gov't has this estimate at 1/10 of yours

"If you were to ask the average Iraqi citizen if they would like the US to come to their aid at the cost of seeing their loved ones blown to smithereens in the process, I don't think they would find that an acceptable solution"
-Well, everyone's been watching TV the last couple days, we all know how's the Iraqis feel

"OH and that estimate of 2K Iraqi citizens dying is the lowest number I have come across. More realistic estimates are along the line of 100,000 civilian deaths"
-The misinformation of the Iraqi gov't has their death count at 1700, AND WE ALL know that's untrue, so I guess the true estimate would fall approximately 1/100 or less than your estimate

"SOME civilians might die?? Try tens of thousands"
-Uhmm, nope... not even the Iraqis exaggerated that bad

"Heck, American media has been a laughing stock of the world for sometime now"
-Now look at us, France, Germany, & Russia want in on reconstruction,
the Arab networks are falling under harsh criticism for their biased & blatently untrue coverage of the war,
& the American media is being known as an ACTUAL truthful source... Because the correspondents are SO embedded it's IMPOSSIBLE to hide the truth... NOT TO MENTION ALMOST ALL the correspondents are liberal & quick to criticize the US Gov't, but they can't now, the US has done a Great Job!

Now that's the War's in hindsight, is this what really occurred?
Nope... maybe it's that independent media propaganda that you need to watch out for... it's brainwashing people...

posted April 11, 2003 05:55 PM              

http://commondreams.org/views03/0411-06.htm

posted April 11, 2003 07:15 PM              

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

Fact 1: Haliburton is no longer in the running for contracts to refurbish the Iraqi oil fields as the article I posted a link to states. Did you not read it? Your information is out of date.

quote:

---

The New York Times
Details Given on Contract Halliburton Was Awarded
By ELIZABETH BECKER

WASHINGTON, April 10 —

The Pentagon contract given without competition to a Halliburton subsidiary to fight oil well fires in Iraq is worth as much as $7 billion over two years, according to a letter from the Army Corps of Engineers that was released today.
The contract also allows Kellogg Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary, to earn as much as 7 percent profit. That could amount to $490 million.

The corps released these new details in a letter to Representative Henry A. Waxman, Democrat of California and one of the two senior lawmakers who asked the General Accounting Office to investigate how the Bush administration is awarding contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq.

April 10
By LEIGH STROPE, Associated Press Writer

Waxman and Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., have asked for an investigation into how the Bush administration is awarding contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq. They also want the General Accounting Office ), the investigative arm of Congress, to determine whether Vice President Dick Cheney )'s former company may have received favorable treatment in their Pentagon contracts.

KBR subsidiary (Kellogg, Brown & Root) already has business in Iraq under a previous Defense Department contract to extinguish oil well fires. The firm hired subcontractors Boots & Coots International Well Control Inc. and Wild Well Control Inc., both also from Houston, to handle the firefighting work.

---

Fact 2: Shell Oil Co is factually Royal Dutch Shell, not an American oil company but from the Netherlands. BP, British Petroleum, isn't American owned either.

We all know that Iraq has the world’s second largest proven oil reserves. And according to oil industry experts, new exploration will probably raise Iraq’s reserves to 2-300 billion barrels of high-grade crude, extraordinarily cheap to produce, leading to a gold-rush of profits for international oil firms in a post-Saddam setting.

These four giant firms, Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Phillips Petroleum and BP-Amoco located in the US and the UK have been keen to get back into Iraq, from which they were excluded with the nationalization. They face companies from France, Russia, China, Japan and elsewhere, who already have major concessions. But in a post-war, with a military governments, imposed by Washington, the US-UK companies expect to overcome their rivals and gain the most lucrative oil deals that will be worth hundreds of billions, even trillions of dollars in profits in the coming decades.
________________________________________________________________________

Fact 3: Any Exxon/Mobil tankers lined up for Iraqi oil will be purchasing that oil at market prices. The President has repeatedly said the oil belongs to the Iraqi people.

Market prices...I'm talking about something bigger...like controlling the flow of oil and ensuring Israel's continued regional military superiority. But taking over Iraq and remaking the global oil market is not necessarily the endgame. The next steps, favored by hard-liners determined to elevate Israeli security above all other U.S. foreign policy goals, would be to destroy any remaining perceived threat to the Jewish state: namely, the regimes in Syria and Iran. "The War Won't End in Baghdad".

The president said that ? Well, for me this is obvious ?! Yet, Dick Cheney and some Pentagon officials publicly advocate the "need" to use Iraq's oil to pay for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
In other words, the Iraqi people should pay for their own invasion.
_____________________________________________________________________

Fact 4: Vice President Cheney owns no stock in Haliburton.

Jakie, this is clearly false. Vice President Cheney owns NO shares of Haliburton stock. He divested himself of all that stock. For a US official to own or control stock in a company that has dealings with the Federal Government is a conflict of interest.

quote:

---

Cheney, who served as CEO from 1995 to 2000, continues to receive as much as $1 million a year from Haliburton in deferred compensation

---

"Haliburton "has a history of government contracts" and will be a "leading beneficiary" of the war on Iraq. Mr Cheney should receive huge financial rewards for the war on Iraq through substantial investments in the corporation he once headed."

Are you now going to counter factual information with speculation and opinion like this?

quote:

---

By Jeff Gerth and Don Van Natta Jr.
New York Times

From building cells for detainees at Guantnamo Bay in Cuba to feeding American troops in Uzbekistan, the Pentagon is increasingly relying on a unit of Halliburton called KBR, sometimes referred to as Kellogg Brown & Root.

KBR is the exclusive logistics supplier for both the Navy and the Army, providing services like cooking, construction, power generation and fuel transportation. The contract recently won from the Army is for 10 years and has no lid on costs, the only logistical arrangement by the Army without an estimated cost.

...KBR got the Army to agree to pay about $750,000 for electrical repairs at a base in California that cost only about $125,000, according to Mr. McIntosh, an agent with the Defense Criminal Investigative Service.

...Reports in 1997 and 2000 by the General Accounting Office, the audit arm of Congress, found weak contract monitoring by the Army contributed to cost increases in the Balkan contract that benefited KBR.
The audit agency's 1997 report concluded that the Army allowed KBR to fly in plywood from the United States, at a cost of $85.98 a sheet, because it did not have time to procure it in Europe, where sheets cost $14.06.

...KBR's military logistics business began to escalate rapidly with its selection for a $3.9 million contract in 1992, Mr. Cheney's last year at the Pentagon. Over the last 10 years, the revenues have totaled $2.5 billion, mostly a result of widening American involvement in the Balkans after 1995.

...When Mr. Cheney became CEO, Halliburton jumped from 73rd to 18th on the Pentagon's list of top contractors, benefiting from at least $3.8 billion in federal contracts and taxpayer-insured loans, according to the Center for Public Integrity.

---

"President Saddam Hussein is sitting on reserves of at least 115bn barrels, the second-biggest in the world after Saudi Arabia. Popular opinion has it that hordes of empty Exxon tankers would soon form a second line behind any US troops if the call comes to ride into Baghdad. But while the bounty would have the likes of BP and Shell licking their lips, what may happen to Iraqi oil under a new order is not clear."

You can't have it both ways Jakie. If you were in favor of leaving Saddam Hussein in power in Iraq, you were pro Saddam because effectively, it's the same thing with the same result, more tortured, raped and murdered Iraqi citizens. If you protested the war, you were pro Saddam.

I posted on another thread how do I feel about Saddam and what are my thoughts about the best way to end a dictatorship without a war...I'll see if I can find it to post here.

As a last note, please, again I ask you to not make the mistake of thinking that I am pro-Saddam or anti-US.
In the first place, we must realize and recognize that nothing in life is just black or white...if I am a pacifist, for you, it means that I am a communist sponsored by drug dealers communists from South America- sic- ( I didn't even know that such a thing exist).

I am just taking a principled stand against a war which I and many others in your country, in mine, and around the world do not feel is necessary or justified.

Thank you for your response; I appreciate criticism that forces me to rethink my position and fortify my arguments.

Jakie

posted April 11, 2003 07:38 PM              

Love
Jakie

posted April 11, 2003 07:43 PM              

I particularly don't believe that billions of dollars were worn-out just with the intention of freeing the little children of Iraq...

Who will pay the bill of the billion of U$ expenses in this war ?
If you answered Iraq, right on target.

How much this will cost to the safes of the Iraqian treasury ?
Many zeros before the comma, and in dollar.

And how will this debt be paid ?
If you answered oil, bingooooooo ! Right again.

Thinking about Afghanistan, after tons of bombs... where is the reconstruction of that country ?
Why I didn't see so much interest in rebuilding Afghanistan ?

If Iraq had the largest plantation of tomatoes on earth, it would not BE INVADED, therefore tomato is not a wealth that interests anybody...

Jakie

posted April 11, 2003 09:00 PM              

If you all think this is just about Oil, you are grossly mistaken & seeing a minor facet of this extremely complicated matter.

You all don't realize that Rumsfield, Bush, Condeleeza Rice, & Colin Powell are REALLY trying to change the world as we know it.

They look at this as an attempt to make some positive global progress and they're taking it. The world is gonna change y'all & if you radical liberals want to take us backwards, away from globalization, & into decentralized communes, then guess what...

IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!

The economies of the world are evolving into one global economy which will make nation-states so inter-dependent on each other that war between nations will be inconceivable.

THAT'S HOW WE ARE GOING TO ACHIEVE WORLDWIDE PEACE & HARMONY!

posted April 11, 2003 09:00 PM            

This is speculation.

"We all know that Iraq has the world’s second largest proven oil reserves. And according to oil industry experts, new exploration will probably raise Iraq’s reserves to 2-300 billion barrels of high-grade crude, extraordinarily cheap to produce, leading to a gold-rush of profits for international oil firms in a post-Saddam setting.
These four giant firms, Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Phillips Petroleum and BP-Amoco located in the US and the UK have been keen to get back into Iraq, from which they were excluded with the nationalization. They face companies from France, Russia, China, Japan and elsewhere, who already have major concessions. But in a post-war, with a military governments, imposed by Washington, the US-UK companies expect to overcome their rivals and gain the most lucrative oil deals that will be worth hundreds of billions, even trillions of dollars in profits in the coming decades."

This is speculation and fly's in the face of what the President has promised the world and the Iraqi people, that the oil in Iraq belongs to the Iraqi people. They will decide who gets what contracts and they will receive the money from the oil revenues once a provisional government is set up. Right now there's little revenue from oil sales.

"Market prices...I'm talking about something bigger...like controlling the flow of oil and ensuring Israel's continued regional military superiority. But taking over Iraq and remaking the global oil market is not necessarily the endgame. The next steps, favored by hard-liners determined to elevate Israeli security above all other U.S. foreign policy goals, would be to destroy any remaining perceived threat to the Jewish state: namely, the regimes in Syria and Iran. "The War Won't End in Baghdad".
The president said that ? Well, for me this is obvious ?! Yet, Dick Cheney and some Pentagon officials publicly advocate the "need" to use Iraq's oil to pay for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
In other words, the Iraqi people should pay for their own invasion. "

What I said about Haliburton being out of the running for the contract to refurbish Iraqi oil fields is true. A Haliburton subsidery has a contract to put out the oil fires which is a very specialized service and even your post says it's an existing contract.
"Haliburton is no longer in the running for contracts to refurbish the Iraqi oil fields as the article I posted a link to states. Did you not read it? Your information is out of date."

"KBR subsidiary (Kellogg, Brown & Root) already has business in Iraq under a previous Defense Department contract to extinguish oil well fires. The firm hired subcontractors Boots & Coots International Well Control Inc. and Wild Well Control Inc., both also from Houston, to handle the firefighting work."

Do you know what deferred compensation is? It's money not taken in the given year that it was earned in---generally for tax purposes or to ease the burden on the company payroll. It's Cheneys money, it's due him per agreement. So, no conflict of interest exists.

This is utter nonsense. Cheney doesn't work for Haliburton and therefore won't share in any benefits to the company. Neither does he own any Haliburton stock.

"Haliburton "has a history of government contracts" and will be a "leading beneficiary" of the war on Iraq. Mr Cheney should receive huge financial rewards for the war on Iraq through substantial investments in the corporation he once headed."

Well, having a one track mind, I guess I don't qualify as a first rate intelligence.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald"

Just as a matter of curiosity, when all your unfounded allegations are proven by time and events to be untrue, are you going to issue an apology?

posted April 11, 2003 10:03 PM            

You always sign off with "love" but do you really? I have always found that Virgo's can love so intensely, but not at all. Do you agree?

Lost Leo,

You never really answered my question about debate. I would think that jwhop would agree more. He seems like a Leo comfortable in his "fur"....purrrrr, meow, but not you.

Do you still have that hang up about Sagittarian women because you mom is one?

posted April 11, 2003 11:21 PM            

Yep, I enjoy a good debate with a beautiful woman as long as she says yes at the end.

Hey, have you heard the latest? President Bush is negotiating with Exxon/Mobile, Chevron/Texaco and McDonalds to see if they want long term leases on the choice corner lots in all the larger cities in Iraq. The plan is to put 3 gas stations and a McDonalds on the corners of major intersections. He's already agreed to give the other corner to British Petroleum for BP stations as a concession for the role Britain played in the liberation of Iraq. Guess that's one way to help pay for the war and help introduce American fast food to the Iraqis at the same time.

posted April 13, 2003 02:49 AM            

Juniperb, Fajita,
I'm lookin fer them, know they have to be around here somewhere...

Which brings me to this-
I think I've stopped being interested in hashing out all the things that we knowflakes may have opposing opinions about.
Especially opinions that do not appear subject to be changed by means any of us here possess.

Pidaua, You didn't lob a personal attack in any obvious way but I took your argument in it's most basic sense to be personally offensive. It seemed to me that you basically said I just hate bush for no legitimate reason, essentially that I hated him just because I'm some sort of bitter, vindictive person bordering on the pathologic.
Well, I've never said I hate him, in fact I pity him for a number of reasons, but I do hate some of his actions. I would speak out if anyone did the things he has done. I have called his personal character into question because he is the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet and as such, his character should be subject to intense scrutiny.
I don't enjoy being so irate about one persons actions and I would love to have a leader that didn't perpetrate injustice, a leader I could respect and admire.
Unfortunetly those who wish to see justice done for the whole instead of just a few don't really get the big time corporate campaign contributions that make it possible to reach any large number of people with their ideas.
ahhh, but I digress.

Pidaua, jwhop, Lost Leo, everyone, I'm far more interested in finding the common ground between us. I'm willing to accept that perhaps that means not speaking of politics at all but I remain hopeful that we may find common ground there even yet...

So, I think I am done with this thread and the rest of these exhaustive debates that seem to go nowhere. I heard some wise words today that I'm going to try to live by from here on out.

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
- Buckminister Fuller

posted April 13, 2003 07:26 AM              

I MEAN the Arab world is shocked by the abandonment of the Iraqi army, AND by the rejoicing in the streets of Iraqi Arabs.

IT'S CHANGING the whole way Arabs think of the world, they are RETHINKING everything.
Pan-Arabism is finding new form... a global form, coinciding witht the liberal democracies of our global vilage. I'm excited for the future

Pidaua,
Stop talkin shi*t over there! Of course the MOST invigorating form of arousal is intellectual debate. Stimulation to the mind energizes the whole body... then you get to put the mind at ease and let the body go to it!

And ya... the Sag Mom thing has got me a bit messed up, but I'll be honest, you've got me looking at my bestfriend's Sag girlfriend a bit different nowadays.

posted April 13, 2003 08:33 AM            

I look forward to your strength of purpose in seeking & sharing your path as we all grow toward a brighter, more enlightened tomorrow. I DO expect a miracle!

... You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
- Buckminister Fuller

A wonderful bit of wisdom...