posted July 29, 2003 12:47 PM              

Remember that TRUTH contains the word HURT, and some of us are going to get hurt when someone shares a truth, that we're not ready for. All of us are going to get hurt with one thing or another. I was guilty of showing a lexigram to someone that wasn't ready to see my point of view, and for that I got pushed around for it. Then calling me a self righteous idiot, which upset me, because that was not what my Lexigram was intended to do. Although I should have known better before I posted it.

Sometimes I try to avoid this forum as I don't have much knowledge in politics, but there will be times that I don't, when I'm interested in a post like this one. I think this post speaks for all forums as well.

posted July 29, 2003 05:42 PM              

i mean, i really havent seen any flamey threads in astro, except for the one calling geo bush the antichrist which kinda had nothing to do with astrology and everything to do with politics and religion.

yet we agree on astrology. or do we not, but just dont quarrel about it?

do our beliefs in politics and religion somehow define us better than say, how we interpret dreams, astrological charts, or lexigrams? are these beliefs more personal to us, and therefore we get more defensive about them?

posted July 31, 2003 08:10 PM              

In this community we regularly address things of a depth most people manage somehow not to consider during the course of their lives.

Considering how personal our interrelationships are on this community even without the complications of realtime IM messaging, its hardly surprising how high tensions can run.

The arguments here in this forum are actually models of self-control compared to places i've spent time going to - i think we're doing very well because we're all only human.

posted July 31, 2003 08:22 PM            

Simply because we`re human, doesn`t mean we can`t get a handle on s-elf control.Courtesy and good manners doesn`t stop at the keyboard. Mars is knocking and it may be a rugged ride and I wish the best of this period for every knowflake

posted August 01, 2003 12:13 AM            

Referring to George Bush as the Anti-Christ doesn't strike close to home. At least not to any reasonable person.

juniperb

Attacking a leader or anyone else on a personal level with charges that can't be proven or are demonstrably false is not the essence of good manners. I think anyone's policies are fair game however and of course, the truth about an individual falls into the same realm.

I've seen the President referred to as an idiot----truth is, he has a Bachelors degree from Yale and a Masters in business from the Harvard Business School. By comparison, Al Gore had a Bachelors degree but dropped out of the Vanderbilt Law School and his degree is in government. Not exactly a rigorous disipline. Michael Moore, a hero to some dropped out of the University of Michigan.

Most of the people badmouthing the President's intellect are dropouts from institutes of higher learning---if they ever got that far to begin with, they couldn't cut it at that level.

I only brought this up because you mentioned courtesy and good manners but fairness plays it's role too---or should for people of good will.

posted August 01, 2003 01:16 AM              

Terrorism and those who encourage it must be stamped out, in order to continue forging ahead with that agenda. Your economy is suffering because you've lost faith in your own country and it's future. You're reaching a point of self loathing as a country, and you're letting terrorism win.

posted August 01, 2003 01:34 AM              

thats what being human is, the ability to relate and to connect with others through compassion and mutual experiences.

people who lack an ability to emotionally connect to others are commonly referred to in the psychological community as 'sociopaths'. these people can often lash out in many ways as they often have no value for human life, because they do not connect with others and therefore have nothing to quantify their own self/id/ego with. perhaps its a good thing that we do have celebrities although there are other ways to connect with people, even without 'connecting' to people who are in the public eye. we can easily connect with people in our own personal realm of existance, the people we have in our immediate reality rather than the ecumenical.

i agree with the statement that its rather irresponsible to make statements about people in the public eye based on standards that will forever lack empirical evidence. it is good to question things in this life, especially the government, as power can and has corrupted (from a historical point of view), but i feel personally that there should be some way of quantifying the facts, there needs to be context in any situation. information without context is useless. look at astrology... its limited without its context. done many charts without a proper birthtime? its most difficult to accurately interpret. the houses are the stage for the play. without them, how can we truthfully apply the context to the factors of a chart? the information is therefore limited. its like mathmatics too. theres certain elements that are necessary for there to be any use or sense or truth gained from the values in any equation.

further, even if we do have 'proof' we also need to check the facts and check them again. lets use astrology again as an example, as its a very apt metaphor, astrology has been around for millenia and the facts of astrology have been checked and checked again. i make the preceding statement in context to my own personal litmus test, of course. i do not propose that anyone else use mine. anyway, any new astrological theory that i come across has to be tested before ill believe in it, as in all disciplines and facts i might glean from the world. this does not preclude faith in its accuracy, it merely supports it.

in more mundane terms, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... but sometimes things can be hidden within a cigar. things arent always what they seem. i am trying to not start an argument, thats not my wish... but in my personal experience i have noticed many people with uni degrees that really didnt deserve them. perhaps their parents were financial supporters, they were star athletes, whathaveyou.

my husband quit school in his graduating year because he was immensely frustrated with the fact that half of his graduating class couldnt even read beyond a second grade level.

i have also known many people who never attended a university in their life, yet they are much brighter and knowledgeable then some holders of masters and PhD's i have known because they educated themselves, and had the tools within themselves to do a fine job, comperable to anything the ivy league could offer. its all relative and depends on what any individual personally trusts as their standard, their own personal litmus test involving the question 'does this have worth'.

i dont think for a moment that someones dropping out of college has much to do with intellectual capacity. in many cases its the opposite. some extremely bright people have not been able to cope with the ridgity of the university environment and lack of adequate curricula or inspirational teachers. not all of the bright people of the world have some earth in their charts, or whatever they need to apply themselves in a highly structured setting. look at nicola tesla... case in point. not that i am an expert, however i have never heard that he ever went to university. that fact doesnt detract from his incredible intelligence and proclivity towards the development of truly remarkable conceptual advances in electronics, specifically, and probably other things that i just do not have knowledge of at this time. what of newton? galileo? einstein? curie? certainly these people may have gone to school, however school did not teach them what they arrived at with their own minds and inspiration. at best, they may have found the groundwork necessary to extrapolate and define their thoughts to the status quo, but i firmly believe they could have taught themselves what they needed to share their genius with the world. i do not have the information as to who of these people had what education, i apologise. this link is interesting however and adds perspective. many people drop out of higher learning institutions too as they simply cant afford it. what of genius children who never went to school at all, but read at the age of 3? i just mean to show that theres always a story behind every failure and reward.

intelligence or education?

there are many things under the sun, and perspectives are more than grains of sand.

being a fair minded libra who is definitely motivated by good will, i hope i have demonstrated how there is fairness in allowing other people their opinion. it doesnt have to threaten our own. nobody here is the final arbiter of society in our life, we are our own final arbiter though. we are stuck with ourselves until this life is over and we see what lies beyond. in keeping with the wish of randall in this thread, i respect you all, i am glad that you all have ways to make sense of this world, and lets please be kind when sharing our differences.

its in this spirit that i have posted in this thread, not to dismiss randalls sincere and wise desire for peaceful discourse, but to demonstrate that we can learn from this experience and be decent to one another. pushing unpleasantness under the proverbial rug doesnt solve the underlying problem, and that is why i responded here in the manner in which i did. i very much respect the standards that randall wisely believes in, as i do other peoples right to an opinion. it is not my wish that anyone think that i am merely stirring up more conflict, i do so hope that i havent given that impression because it was not my intention. i just wanted to demonstrate how i could temper my um... temper and post 'nice'. i have a weird way of showing things but its just who i am *shrug*

i wish good things for you all

posted August 01, 2003 09:27 AM            

That said, a resounding YES; fairness plays into it and I left it out. It should have been included to make it complete. Thank you for the inclusion .

I can`t even reach Gore on the education level , but I still have thoughts and opinions. I prefer not to get embroiled in a debate because it serves no purpose for me. None, nil, nada. Maybe something is missing in my gene code that I don`t have the need to argue, be right or try to convince others.

I learn by listening and I have learned a great deal here. I love my country and the principles it was founded on. You and I ol` buddy, were born into an extremely controversial era. It affected me deeply and it`s something so personal that it can`t be explained. That`s part of the reason I listen... somewhere there must be an answer to the global dis-harmony and I`m waiting for the light bulb to go off

Til then, peace and harmony starts within and my fervent prayer is that all will seek and will FIND it.

If you got this far, thanks for reading.

posted August 01, 2003 09:30 AM            

I rarely come into this forum anymore...so many of us are strong people, with well-developed and intelligent opinions. It's the dismissiveness towards each other that sometimes bothers me...

...I've long believed that whatever you want to believe, you can find the study/'proof'/research to support it.

Does a degree, or lack of one, define one's intelligence? No, I think not.

The exchange of ideas and ideals is so important. Personally I love to see things from the 'other side,' so to speak. I never want to be locked in a box with my own opinions...truth is not static, truth is not exclusive, truth just...is...and further, it is defined by he who believes.

Oh, I know there are folks who disagree, and will say that truth is finite, provable, etc...and hey, I respect your opinion.

Thanks for starting this thread, Randall.

posted August 01, 2003 04:48 PM              

I can't tell you how many times I have asked a question and a teacher has said "Well, that is really beyond the scope of this course." What???!!!
I had this other teacher and he was mean to me so I asked him why he didn't like me-he says "because you ask too many quesions.
This is the education that is so highly regarded? Learning from teachers who won't answer questions that will further you're knowledge, for whatever reason? Please.

And if you are someone who learns from largest to smallest like I do; this is torture because I need what is "beyond the scope of the course" to understand the course.
With teachers like that, any fool can get a degree.
People think evil is in the brothels and the liquor stores, sure but it is also infiltrating the school system. Because when you have control of someone's mind, well, then you have it made.

P.S. Can I just say that it seems to me as though school curriculum has been "dumbed down" seemingly to accomadate those who cannot think creatively. Such a stress has been put on learning the facts. Yes the facts are important but you needn't hold someone's hand to learn the facts. If they are too irresponsible to learn the facts then perhaps they should think about whether they really want to be in college or whatever. Give them the facts and move on--whole ten week courses dedicated to learning bare facts. What is going on?

posted August 01, 2003 08:36 PM            

Just so there's no jumping to conclusions about what I said about never having gone to University or having dropped out; what I didn't say was that it was an intellect problem. What I did say was that many badmouthing the President's intellect never went to University or dropped out-----undoubtedly for a myriad of reasons. Some couldn't handle the regimentation, some undoubtedly found themselves unprepared by their former schools, some needed to work full time to support families and some were just in over their heads. Many reasons but they don't cut students a lot of slack academically at major Universities.

It wasn't meant to be a personal comment about anyone here but to highlight some of the institutional Bush Basher's lack of credentials to call the President stupid.
Perfect example; Barbara Streisand castigating the President about American Foreign Policy identifies Saddam Hussein as President of Iran.

Hope everyone will have a great weekend.

jwhop

posted August 02, 2003 06:52 PM            

Oh, well, dayum!

I thought it was just *fun* I was havin' in there!!

jwhop, personanally, I knew what you meant. I often enjoy your opinions/posts, mostly because they are so vastly different from mine. They get my dander up sometimes, and that's great...it's always good to see the world from another's perspective.

Like the old song said, "Walk a mile in my shoes/Now before you abuse/criticize and accuse/Walk a mile in my shoes."

Sometimes, being right just gets you...alone.

posted August 02, 2003 08:10 PM            

Hey Trillian, I`m never alone... does that mean, heaven forbid, I`m never right.

posted August 03, 2003 07:29 AM              

quote:

---

"Walk a mile in my shoes/Now before you abuse/criticize and accuse/Walk a mile in my shoes."

---

i couldnt have said that better myself.

jwhop, trillian knew what you meant. so did everyone else here because they know you. i do not. i would hope i would have a little tolerance as i get aquainted with this place. im not really feeling a lot of that now, in this thread or others (not by you, let me clarify, as that was the first post ive made directly to you). anyway, if it makes any difference i dont mean anything personal either, i never did.

i appreciate your words, it helped me understand you and your opinion a lot more. i am sorry for my little dissertation, i did have honorable means however those might not be interpreted in the way i had hoped them to be. all i know is what i know, i lack the ability to see myself as others might. it would be impossible for me to know how others see me, for there are many many people on this earth, each with a different viewpoint, and there are many people on these forums. i can only see me how i see me and i guess my version is at odds.

to all, anyone who might hold a negative opinion about me-

i am really feeling like i am only accepted here when i shut up and conform, and make myself useful. thats fine, theres nothing wrong with helping people, its something i get much joy from. all i ask in return is for a little bit of understanding of the fact that i might be a bit of a hard person to understand, if that makes any sense. i dont even ask to be liked. i do wish however that people could just accept the fact that i am not a rotten person, even if i am a person who you just dont like. i guess what i want the most to be understood about me is that i am usually totally honest (barring personal harm where i will lie out of self protection), and that my honesty, though maybe seeming otherwise, is completely without guile.

maybe i dont come across this way, but i am actually quite neutral. i do not hold grudges. i might post something with a strong opinion, but its never meant to hurt anyone. i am a passionate person. where else but an astrology forum might i ever hope to be understood? one in spirit of our beloved linda too. i thought i would really be ok here. anyways, astrologically its all there in my planets. i try the best i can to be. im human. i suppose i can come on quite strong. im sorry about that.

no matter how controversially i might express myself, i try very hard to not attack anyone or take things personally, which is quite difficult with an aries moon. allow me to quote myself, i think i explained it rather well already so i might as well use what i already have written.

quote:

---

i wanted to mention here that i rarely hold grudges unless the circumstances are extreme. i dont deem these to be, it would take a lot more than this. when i have a problem with someone, i deal with the problem than i move on, with no hard feelings. its like the slate is wiped clean. thats the honest truth. i dont begrudge anyone their beliefs, even though i may disagree with them, unless its also under extreme circumstances (such as racism or otherwise repugnant idiologies). those i reserve the right to contest, and to further not have any association with the source of same.

i am like a metaphor of a dog who has been beaten, it keeps coming back, and only once its been beaten to a bloody pulp over a prolonged period of time does that dog snap and start growling, which means i have negative feelings. in that case rather than growl, i avoid the source. before that happens, i always come back with a happy goofy grin and a tail wagging.

---

i just have been sensing a lot of dislike and disapproval from a few people, and comments which could be interpreted as little digs at me. if you all really want me to go away and leave you to your peace or whatever, well who am i to not respect that? i would rather stay and contribute and have my beliefs respected as much as i respect others, my disagreeing with someone doesnt preclude me respecting them. id like to have some friends (which i think i have a couple), and find some happiness here too. maybe i dont come across as respecting of others beliefs, its in my nature to look at things from a critical perspective. i dont know. i only know myself and i am quite benign. i dont think theres been one instance where i havent 'tied up loose ends' and tried to 'make up' with... and assure those with whom i found myself at odds with knew that i didnt have anything against them. if i did it has been because of my absent minded professor tendencies than lack of desire.

i can disagree with someone a thousand times, and in very strong terms, yet still think they are great. surely i cant be the only person like this.

please dont judge me by the same standards that you know your other friends to be, most of the people i feel have an issue with me have been here since 2002 or so, i have been here 2 months. its taken me about a month, month and a half to feel comfortable. now i think i should either leave, or take back that 'comfort', and suppress my personality and opinions. i dont know that i would be happy if that were the case. the helping of others is a bonus but im not a martyr. what i am trying to say is that it takes time, i suppose. i am still feeling my way around here, there are a lot of very strong personalities and i dont know where i really fit in yet.

it might not have been apparent as to what i was doing in that long post of mine. i used my resources of intellect to construct a cohesive and well written (i thought) mini essay to prove a simple fact. me, the person who wrote that, has a grade 10 education. my being sexually assaulted throughout my childhood and having parents who did not wish to have me and made no bones about it... i could not thrive in school because of the pain i was in and the heavy loads i carried. i just wanted to show that a diploma is important yes, but we cant discount those who dont have them either. it wasnt even about me either. i used myself because thats all i have to draw on as an example. i did it so that we can be less prone to discount a persons value because they lack a formal education.

i guess my message was lost in the translation. *sigh*

anyway... sorry for the rather badly written post, but i am emotionally wrought and not able to formulate my sentences that well when im a little hurt. i hope my point got across, and i didnt come off as too much of an blathering idiot.

posted August 03, 2003 04:44 PM            

Hey juniperb, not sure my Scorp rising likes being that much of an open book Still there is a lot of mutual reception between Aquarius and Leo, opposites perhaps in form but not necessarily in substance.

Being a Leo isn't as easy as we make it look. If you want to be a Leo, you have to learn "when" to Roooooaar.

When you've definitely been insulted.
When you think you might have been insulted.
When you think someone is going to insult you.
When you're angry.
When the bed is too hard.
When the bed is too soft.
When the porridge is too hot.
When the porridge is too cold.
When you can't find a mirror.
When your steak is overcooked.

There, that should help you get started.

jwhop

posted August 03, 2003 07:12 PM            

You actually have an "old" Leo acquaintance?? My God, that's terrible news! I didn't know we Leo's got old. Well, of course his bed is just right, what else would you expect

Hmmm, well let's see! Papa Bear says, "someone's been eating my porridge". Momma Bear says, "someone's been eating my porridge too". Baby Bear says, "someone's been eating my porridge and they ate it all up"

Papa Bear says, "someone's been sleeping in my bed". Momma Bear says, "someone's been sleeping in my bed too". Baby bear says, "someone's been sleeping in my bed too and they're still there"

Seems to me Baby is the Leo----every thing was just right.
So, what sign do you ascribe to Goldilocks?

Porridge is ground grains or legumes cooked in water or milk until thickened, as in Cream of Wheat, Malt O Meal, Oatmeal etc. And I suppose ground corn as well, normally called "grits!

trillian

I enjoy reading your comments too. Sorry if I sometimes push your buttons but I think it's normal when people with diverse backgrounds and signs get involved in hot button topics. Don't give up on me, I may come around yet.

anafaery

Well, of course I think you're a fair minded person, perhaps going out of your way to not give offense. True, we don't know each other but that's the same condition we were all in at one time on this site. The only solution for that is to stick around and voice your opinions, which are welcome. I echo what Randall and Oxy have said about you and staying. Can't imagine anyone would want you to leave. There is plenty of room on this site for diverse opinions about any topic. And if it should happen that you are called on to defend them, that's one of the ways we get to know each other and who knows, you might have a piece of the puzzle that clears something up for someone.

jwhop

posted August 03, 2003 07:21 PM            

And juniperb, you are often very, very right about things.

I was readin' through these posts and realized when I wrote 'personally,' I spelled it personANALly.' Freudian slip?? Word druid play? Things that make you go hmmmm...

Oh hey, I have a Leo rising, does that count towards being a Leo?

Oxy, porridge is nasty stuff, really it's pretty much grey lumpy oatmeal or other whole grains.

ana, I'm really not aware of anyone acting towards you with any sort of ill will. In this thread, I'd agree with Randall, things are getting blown way out of proportion. This thread seems to be highly respectful to each of its contributors.
It seems to me, from the threads I've read at least, that you've gotten much good feedback from some of those here. I've personally never read anything nasty towards you. Sure, people might disagree with you, people disagree with me regularly...I'm pretty new here too. But we allow each other the right to our own opinions... Perhaps, and I say this with a gentle heart, perhaps it is your expectations of how others should respond to you that is part of the problem.
Relax, take time to get to know everyone, and let folks take time to get to know you. Friendship grows...it cannot be forced or manipulated, if it is to be real.

posted August 03, 2003 07:30 PM            

Seriously, I LIKE to have my buttons pushed...ever read "Stranger in A Strange Land?" One of my all time fave books, weird as it could be in some spots...

There are so may ways to see things...nothing is as it seems. When I read thoughtful intelligent posts, I am able to glimpse the universe through another's eyes, even if it takes a little while for me to cool down!
And that only broadens my world view...
I don't believe in absolutes.