posted July 25, 2003 06:40 PM              

Lioneye - Sorry! That was my (sometimes) twisted sense of humor, run amok!

The list is, in order:
1) One of the shepherd children visited by The Virgin Mary at Fatima.
2) A poor, French farm girl who heard voices from heaven instructing her to save France.
3) An Elder and Prophet of the Sioux Nation.
4) An Elder and Prophet of the Hopi Nation.
5) Jesus of Nazareth
6) The Buddha
7) The Prophet Mohammed

I'm looking now, because it seems like I re-member Linda saying something about this subject in STAR SIGNS?

ozone - WOW! Is it safe to say you have an opinion on this subject?

Niki - I don't think I caught that show. Sounds like a good one!
I do re-member Joseph Goodavage mentioned the eclipse that happened on February 4/5, 1962. It was his contention that the children born at this time would be exceptional and would change our world.
Symbolically, wouldn't an eclipse be appropriate to the birth of an anti-christ?
If the Christ was announced by light in the sky, it makes some sense that the Anti-Christ would be announced by darkness in the sky.

Just another thought to throw in the mix!

ally - Do you think that we, as a society, are our own anti-christ? This is a possibility I have thought about.

posted July 25, 2003 07:18 PM              

That would be a Solar eclipse right at the New Moon. I suppose you COULD say exceptional and will change the world --doesn't say for good or evil tho -- BUt looking at the chart it is obvious at all the South Node activity and that always indicates arrogance.

Well, Looney, between all of us we can put this together!! lol

Lioneye - i did not know Linda had placed Christ as Leo -- all this sure makes sense!!

Yes,devoid of the Sign and the actual Sun -- well that splains it then.

posted July 25, 2003 07:52 PM            

Rev:13;18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

posted July 25, 2003 08:11 PM              

Well, I meant U as a Christian -- anyhooo

I posted that before i read your other comments -- i would not have posted that one if i had read them -- It was actually in response to that L O N G one earlier with all that hellfire and brimstone.

Not much blows my mind -- i'm sure the Antichrist would tho. I have lived a few years already and have lots of layers of experience.

posted July 25, 2003 08:46 PM            

Can't say much for the numerological skills of your imaginative buddy at the fantasy website you linked.

This is a site with a numerology calculator and interpretation module. Just type in George Bush, George W Bush or George Walker Bush to see what W is all about.
http://www.idivine.com/numerology/report/full.html

posted July 25, 2003 10:09 PM              

That would be 666 *shivers* I was always told that little number was an urban legend born with the movie "the omen." The floor I work on has a room with that number. Funny, I don't like going into this room. But I can't say that I find the number evil or anything. I don't even know if I understand pure evil.

I was wondering, I believe I have an open mind and am flexible, but deep inside I know I want empirical data to explain certain things. I have on several occasions experienced psychic phenomena first hand, but after it passes I question if I've truley experienced it or just imagined it. As I don't have hard evidence to back it up I pass it off as coincidence, wishful thinking or a fluke.
Do you think this is a Taurean quality..since we're all so fundamental and earthy, ergo 'grounded'.

posted July 26, 2003 02:59 PM              

quote:

---

Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius are the signs that represented the Cross of Fixed Signs.

They are The Lords of Karma.

They are described in the New Testament as the four beasts around the throne of God, each of them representing one of the four fixed signs: Taurus (the calf), Leo (the lion), Scorpio (the eagle) and Aquarius (the man).

As their name suggest, they are responsible for the correct distribution of Karma, mostly that of the Human Kingdom. The records of all past experiences of the many souls in and out of incarnation (the Akashic Records) are kept in the lower astral planes, where they are easily accesible.

Many Initiates and Devas cooperate with these beings in this complicated task of karmic adjustment, which involves the manipulation of energies to ensure that souls upon the different rays incarnate at the proper times.

They are also The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in the book of Revelation.
They appear when the Lamb (Jesus) opens the first four seals of a scroll with seven seals . As each of the first four seals are opened a different coloured horse and its rider is seen by the apostle John as described .

* 2.1. First seal (6:1) a white horse, its rider holds a bow
* 2.2. Second seal (6:3) a red horse, its rider holds a sword
* 2.3. Third seal (6:5) a black horse, its rider holds a pair of scales
* 2.4. Fourth seal (6:7) a pale horse, its rider is called Death

---

*Crucifix= Fixed Cross

According to the ancients, Leo, Aquarius, Taurus, and Scorpio are the foundation of the World. The Sphinx is the composite of these four signs having a human face (Aquarius), the Body of Lion (Leo), the Hoof of Bull (Taurus), and the wings of Eagle (Scorpio).

quote:

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Ezechiel 1:10 " And as for the likeness of their faces: there was the face of a man (Aquarius), and the face of a Lion (Leo) on the right side of all the four, and the face of an ox (Taurus), on the left side of till the four, and the face of an eagle (one of the symbols of Scorpio) over all the four ".

---

Well...and they are also the Four Angels...

Michael.Presiding Archangel.The Prince= Leo
Raphael.The Healer.= Scorpio (the Serpent)
Gabriel.Power = Taurus
Auriel.The Face of God= Aquarius

posted July 26, 2003 03:19 PM              

if anyone cares i personally believe that the bible is a bunch of 'myths' and parables that have been twisted throughout time and through many different translations to be 'truth'. it was only fate that the bible was put out as truth and not merely myth, how different things would be if homers works were adopted as truth and not myth! i believe this is so because the bible specifically picks up on the more powerless in society eg 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. powerless people picked up on this because they needed to feel they had a place in society, that they were equal to or superior to the autocrats and politicos of the time, ancient peoples version of the 'suits'. perhaps one might understand what im saying better if they had an interest and knowledge of history.

historically speaking though, the 'common person' was pretty powerless and didnt have much going for them besides endless work, taxes, and threat of their survival (starvation). imagine if you are working in a field and someone came to you and told you that there was a 'savior', and that this savior said to follow his way which was gods way, and if you did, one day you would get rewards, and would go to heaven if you lived a life that followed his guidance. this savior would give you miracles if you prayed, he had the power to make three thousand fishes out of three, he suffered so that you didnt have to. you'd need an escape from the drudgery of your existance, youd need to cling to some hope however unproven that one day things would be better for you, that your life was not in vain. thats why i believe that christianity had such a swell in popularity, if it appealed solely to the ruling classes it wouldnt have taken off the way it did. jesus' teachings were VERY geared toward the common folk, and the poor... people who were vulnerable because of their social position. no other religion up to that point had addressed the needs of that social group. well i dunno, judaism might have, but i dont know much about it. i should ask my noahchide friend... but in any event jewish people were not evangelists. they were what they were (much like eastern philosophies/religions) and they didnt have a burning need to convert the rest of the world. oh, also druidism/celtic religions did address certain needs of the common person, however they were seen as dangerous to the roman empire so most of them were dispatched for the benefit of caesar (why? because they were not under caesars control, and needed to be silenced as their standing as wise people threatened caesars rule, druids knew their homeland was not to be respected by caesar and so they counselled for fighting the romans, more rebellion). not to mention that the celts werent very sociable where religion was concerned, they werent missionaries. a druids life was usually very solitary, they felt no need to run around converting people.

the ruling classes were killing christians in roman times at first. then someone (i cant remember who) thought to themselves 'hmmm... let them have their religion' and instead used their religion against them to control them. that stopped the killing and persecution of these people for their beliefs, and they were encouraged to live up to their religion, as it *was* a very good way to control peoples behavior. the nazarene taught some very pacifistic/gentle ideologies (and im not saying i dont agree with some of them, most are a good way to live). whatever ruler noticed this was quite crafty, to see that it was more efficient to let the people believe what they wanted, as it would make the believers meek and constantly turning the other cheek. not to mention that if they lived their lives afraid of satan and hell, theyd be less apt to rebel.

if jesus existed, i believe he was a philosopher or perhaps had a mental illness, whatever the case he made quite an impact on people of the time, so much so that they wrote legends about him. who knows? all i know is that i have done fairly extensive study into the bible and religion in general, and i cant get beyond the fact that its been used as a tool of the earthly powers-that-be to keep the common folk in line. believe me... in the middle/dark ages the monks and the pope had all the power. if religion is truth, i think that it and its believers would be confident enough in it to leave it separated from the state. historically this has not been the case, religion and christianity specifically has been used over and over again to control people. the same is true for islam. islam has been used consistently to quell rebellion (specifically rebellion of women, in a region that is fairly backwoods insofar as equality of women is concerned) and to give people an emotional reason to do the dirty work of the people with political power. i admittedly am no expert on islam so i wont go into to much detail lest i be wrong, but from what ive read about it, seems very similar to christianity insofar as it being used as an emotionally charged tool to make the common folk do certain things.

whew big post.

anyway i dont think theres anything to 'antichrist'... apparently a lot of people believe prince william is the antichrist too, thats something ive heard more than a few times over the past couple of years.

i just believe in yin and yang. theres good, and theres bad... and people always have a choice which way they want to go. nothing can predetermine which path a person will take, even astrology teaches that very basic concept. we have choices. no wonder most christian sects/ versions of the bible make astrology into some demonic art. how could astrology be so bad when apparently the very planets and stars in the sky were created by 'god' and are part of the fabric of his creation? christian leaders dont like their people using other means that they *cant* control to get at the truth. the bible is the only way, to them. any deviation of that fact is anathema.

posted July 26, 2003 04:49 PM              

Sthenri asked when jesus is coming back- good question, he certainly seems to be taking his time over it. as an atheist I obviously dont believe he's coming back. I agree with anafaery that jesus sounded like a pretty cool and relaxed guy. even if he did have a screw loose i think he would be horrified about all the sh!t carried out in his name.

anafaery said some interesting things about the bible. just read some of the old testement sometime- you'll be discusted! i certainly was. theres a section about rape that really made me sick- stuff about how if the woman didnt scream out when it happened then she was just as guilty and should be stoned to death. this is how the bible started- a bunch of awful people who were recording "God's" word! my a$$ they were!

I suppose if the anti-christ did turn up it would probably be in america- your country is going to kill us all- please stop!

posted July 26, 2003 07:24 PM              

i do know that jesus probably WOULD have a hissyfit if he knew what people did in his name. some of the most heinous atrocities in this earths history have been done in the name of jesus/god. witch burnings? crusades? im sorry but if anyone was the antichrist, why not the leader of the crusades, or the leader of the inquisition (i forget the names)? why not hitler? he was religious, from my understanding (although i am no expert on hitler, ive got better people to study with my time). surely these were more drastic examples of a person appearing to be saintly yet being a demon in disguise. the problem with antichrist theories is that unless we have a really strong interest in history, we tend to focus on the time in which we live. why wouldnt we, its what we know. the thing is, throughout history people have done the same thing. certain people thought jeanne d'arc was the antichrist, and she was eventually burned as a witch. how anyone 'christian' could consider her a witch is beyond me, she seemed past the point of piousness. in other time periods they thought other people were, usually anyone who made a stink about the way things were, or who were very well known (usually from common backgrounds, the powers-that-be didnt like commoners rising to importance in society). its just not relevant to bother wasting time wondering who it could be... we wouldnt know anyway. if the antichrist 'prophecy' is true, no one would know until it was all over.

end times have long been a popular theme in churches and in the general public, for a simple reason. its titillating. lets be honest- it really is. its fascinating, and wouldnt we all love to have a part in something so utterly huge and rife with depth and seriousness. its an urban myth that is more than a millenia old, and thats a lot of anticipation built up.

in churches ive been to, some of the parishoners are practically foaming at the mouth for the end times. they are so desperately looking forward to when jesus will come back and carry them away to their mansion in the sky, because they have a certain amount of escapism in their nature and probably are a little bit fond of drama and long to be involved in something 'important', as their lives are rather ordinary. this also ties into the fairly recent (in historical terms) deification of celebrities, but ill save that tangent for another time where its more relevant. the fact of the matter is that the world is what it is, nothing more and nothing less, and i highly doubt that a chariot made of fire is going to be searing across the sky outside my window anytime soon. for the most part, we *are* rather small cogs in a big huge wheel. might as well be the best cogs we can be, and not worry about being part of something 'important'. you make your own important and meaningful experiences.

ash- you said

quote:

---

last point- as some of you might know already, i dont believe in astrology, i just come here to argue. but i was wondering how you guys think religion and astrology go together, or dont they? some people here believe in god and all of you obviously believe in fate and i can see how those go together i.e. god decides everything. but do god and astrology go? they dont seem to go to me. or does god control the planets who control (suggest) your lives etc etc...?

---

you just came here to argue? oooh goody i love a good respectful argument about astrologys value. i have known a lot of people who adamently refused to believe it, and i used to be one of them. course i had to find out for myself, and since then ive been more and more convinced of its accuracy, the more i learn. the thing with me is, while i do have an open mind and dont discount 'metaphysical' things, they have to go through a very intense testing process before ill put stock in em. i dont blindly believe stuff, that just aint me. the astrology that i believe is based on scientific and mathmatical principles, with some psychology thrown in the mix, and has come down from the ancient people of the world. ptolemy was an astrologer, indeed was the first i know of that noticed a harmony between what the planets were doing and us as people, and the greeks and arabians were very much believers and used astrology. astrology ties in very closely with myth, and thats thanks to the greeks. it was the greeks that discovered aspects as well, although i prefer looking at aspects from an algebraic point of view rather than geometrical. i think the arabs were far more correct with their version of aspects. they invented algebra of course. greeks invented geometry. i spose they are both valid for different things, i just really take issue with modern astrologers who are so set in their ways about aspects, ie a trine is good, a square is bad. i have found this to be rather narrow, and quite frankly, inaccurate much of the time. course the law of averages will state that often a trine *will* end up being good and a square being bad, but its never the same outcome every time and in every situation.

anyway with regard to your question about god and astro, obviously from my position i dont think either has one to do with the other as i dont believe in 'god'. at least not as some dude in the sky who holds our strings like puppets... like i am not in some sort of control over my life. the thing is, whether its fate or whathaveyou, sometimes there just are things we cannot change and have no power over. i mean outside influences. thats how i use the term fate. i dont mean 'something thats controlling me' when i use the term fate, i mean fate as in 'this is the situation i have to deal with'. just like those poor kids in africa who dont even have drinking water, well that is their fate. they didnt choose to be born there, thats just what life dealt them, and i hope and wish that they end up with a fulfilling life. my fate has not been particularily kind by western standards, but i do think that i had to experience certain things to be a better person. the essential harmony of the universe just set things up so i would be born to this life and these influences, to help me get my personal work done. we do have free will... in astrological terms or not, we simply do. we can float downstream or we can fight to swim upwards. its always our choice. sometimes, most of the time it isnt fair. i cant help nor do anything about that. its best to just accept it and move on. sometimes ignorance truly *is* bliss... and i dont wanna waste time pondering why things happen to me, i just wanna deal with em and get things done, move on to better things and new lessons. thats me personally, and that is also my 'fate' because of who i am as a person.

as far as god and astrology, i dont need god to believe in astrology. the universe is divine enough on its own without intervention of an invisible being who is sitting there spinning jupiter on his finger like its a basketball. the universe just is the way it is, and there is scientific reasons for everything that we might not fully understand yet. look how long it took for the theory of relativity to be discovered. the thing about astrology is that it is very scientifically based, and it also has laws, just like the universe and science do. thats why its just about useless (except in very general terms) unless its exact, based on the precise locations of the planets at the exact moment of ones birth, calculated for the exact place one was born. a correctly done chart is a very powerful thing, it hides nothing, although some interpretations are better than others. interpretations are human generated and are therefore subject to the gigo rule (garbage in, garbage out). good astrologers have had good teachers. the meanings of astrology have a basis in myth, they are that old. its millenia of testing and more testing to arrive at the astrology of today, but which is still dependant on the astrologer themselves. we also have three or more new planets since ancient times, and also many new inventions that the ancients had so its an evolving art/science/philosophy/psychology, just like humans are evolving creatures.

im sure you are aware of how the moon controls the tides and rivers, and also oysters and how they open and close. if the moons gravitational pull controls the ebb and flow of the tides, why not us, we who are mostly water based? youve probably heard that before, and i truly accepted astrology when i read about that fact and found empirical evidence to support it.

take care

posted July 26, 2003 07:33 PM              

These archetypes are ancient and can't be interpreted individually, they mean different things to different people. That is why they survived, to help men and women struggling with hope and fear in the world.

Archetypes are everywhere and do not need to be interpreted. They are all about treating eachother, with respect and love. There is nothing to fear but fear itself, remember that? This world has it's followers of fear and there are those who follow hope. We have to keep spreading hope and love or less we we won't survive the doom and gloom.

Here is an ancient legend with many interpretations, each one is more hopeful than the next.
There is an old Celtic legend, that a woman heard a knocking on her door late at night. She was older and her children had left home and her husband had died. The man at the door was tired and ragged and dirty and had traveled a long way. He wanted someone to take him in and accept him as the man of the house, and he swore to himself he would convince the next house to take him in, because he knew he would die otherwise. He needed rest and compassion.

The woman took him in and loved him with all her heart and accepted him as her true husband. He made her a loving husband and they lived many years together. She was happy but more than that, she felt she had something she never had before, true faith in God.

Well, you know that if you look at that legend, everything leads back to the idea that God is in all of us. We can love eachother the way we want to be loved and expect everlasting faith and love in return as easy as breathing if we just ask.

Of course this conclusion is easily drawn if you think about it. But when someone points it out to you, it's not the same. You can't say the words you have to feel it and that is why it's a song instead of a psalm. When you get it, nothing can hurt you or make you afraid, especially not other people. The only weapon we need is all around, if we forget that then we won't care what happens anyway.

I think that love and life is like a wake-up call, and hate and fear are the opiate. People preach intolerance and hate are intoxicating the masses. When you get together in the name of something else besides intolerance, you have created a celebration, something that is not guided or constricted. By celebrating life, loving life, you are creating fighting the fear. It's not worth spreading the fear. I work around propaganda all the time, and the media, and I know how important it is to promote the love of life. Because most people do not focus on the positive, I won't bother wasting time on the negative. If you focus on the positive and celebrate life others will follow.

Those are my thoughts.
BTW FDR who fought off one antichrist had the moon in Cancer.
"There is nothing to fear but fear itself"
Eleanor Roosevelt was another moon in Cancer, not a weak placement at all!

posted July 26, 2003 08:14 PM              

this quote for example

quote:

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The chances of this ever happening randomly are 1 in (9 x 9 x 9), or 1 in 729. That means we’d have to go through another 729 presidents before we’d have an even chance of finding another one whose name is as closely identified with the number 6.

---

first of all a remark on the numerology used, then i will mention what i feel about that quote.

you cannot use three different methods of 'numerology' in the same interpretation. maybe, if one believes in numerology, you can use them to reach the same ends, but never can you mix them in the same equation. thats just silliness. why wouldnt george = 6, walker = 6 and bush = 6 using each or just one system, now that would be legitimate. it isnt though. thats preposterous. you cant break certain laws to make them fit your theory better, they either are or they arent. anything more than that is self serving and isnt truthful.

now about that quote (i should have put it here but well, i am lazy :P)

ok so theres a 1 in 729 chance that a president will have that 'numerological' result. well excuse me, where is it written in the bible that it has to be a PRESIDENT that is the antichrist? thats preposterous too. theres probably millions of people with the same numerological result as george bush, and i dont see anyone accusin them of being the antichrist. geez whillikers.

theres such a thing as chance, too. i mean like, sure theres a chance that it will take 729 presidents to arrive at the same numerological conclusion, however it could also be the next president. chances dont happen in order, ask anyone who gambles. you could have a one in three chance at winning a scratch and win ticket, but that doesnt mean it will be within the 6 you pick. you could get three losers. the next person might buy two, and both of them might win.

i appreciate that some people might hold very tightly to their beliefs (hey i do too) but you cant make rules to fit the theory, the theory must fit the rules.

conspiracy theories are by design very seductive, as theres just enough truth in them to keep you wondering... but essentially, they cant withstand the simplest of logic.

btw for the record i think george bush stole the presidency from gore (thats actually recorded fact, thank you electoral college and brother jeb, idiots) and hes one of the worst presidents there has ever been. i daresay hes worse than his father and reagan. i cannot wait until he is trounced out of office, he is stirring up things that need not be stirred, and other countries will be affected too, namely mine. i dont want to suffer cause of some idiot with a grudge who happens to be the leader of my neighbour.

i wont go on about bush though or ill be here all night... and i have things to do right now. *sigh* i do so cannot stand the man though.

posted July 26, 2003 09:32 PM              

I am not trashing Aquarians -- I believe i said Aquarians gone bad or wrong. And, no, they are not the emotional ones. It is an air sign after all, driven by mental pursuits and higher humanitarian issues. The lower road of these qualities could certainly fit the bill for an Anti-Christ.

someone else -- As far as just being interested in Christ's return only, well, the dismissal of the Anti-Christ seems to be a purely Pollyanna attitude. Believe me, i know, as my Mother used to call me that -- lol.

posted July 27, 2003 12:38 PM              

Natasha is right about having faith in God, and how it can fill you up with a sense that "no matter what, I'll be ok" and no matter what happens to you in this world, you have that faith shielding your soul. Even death is nothing to fear. It's the only way to approach life. Fearless, and confident. It's nice to know that the wisdom of the universe has "got your back". Whethor you want to apply a human like quality to that universal wisdom, as in seeing God as an old bearded man who resides in the clouds, that's a personal preferrence.

Whethor you believe in God or not is of no consequence to anything or anyone but you. And God doesn't hold it against us if we question his existence. It was He who bestowed in us the faculties to question, and not just follow blindly, afterall. He'll still be there waiting for us when we come around, in our own time, once we've come full circle and found that He was there all along, that is.

posted July 27, 2003 05:16 PM              

ana- i'd really love a good argument and you seem to know your stuff so anytime you want a 'discussion' on the merit of astrology i'd be glad to join in. you should check out some of my last posts (theres not that many so it wont take long although some of them are quite long- i naturally expected an earfull when i came to this site saying "it sounds crazy to me are you all off your rockers?" but loads of people put up really good responces. i still have some questions though.) you're not the first person on this site who has also said they came here as a 'non-believer' and then changed their mind. i can assure you that i am a million miles away from accepting astrology so you have your work cut out for you. before you ask- yes i've had my chart done and no i'm not even slightly more convinced, but i find these arguments really interesting so if you want to go for it just set up a thread and i'll see you there.