posted April 26, 2004 03:39 AM            

Like your name

Tried listening to the audio and for some reason it was very poor--perhaps my new speakers.

From what I could hear, the Carlyle group is being accused of being venture capitalists, who invest in companies and buy low to sell high after Caryle has helped them straighten out their bottom line. Well, that's exactly what all stock investors attempt to do, buy low and sell high.

12th largest defense contractor doesn't put them up there with the big boys. This is a list of the top 30 defense contractors as of 1998. Sure there's been some movement within the list in 6 years but probably not too much in the top ten.

1 Lockheed Martin Corp.
2 Boeing Co.
3 Raytheon Co.
4 Northrop Grumman Corp.
5 General Dynamics Corp.
6 United Technologies Corp.
7 Litton Industries Inc.
8 General Electric Co.
9 Science Applications Intl. Corp.
10 ITT Corp.
11 GTE Corp.
12 TRW Inc.
13 Textron Inc.
14 Computer Sciences Corp.
15 Bath Holding Corp.
16 Westinghouse Electric Corp.
17 Newport News Shipbuilding
18 Humana Inc.
19 Carlyle Group
20 Avondale Industries Inc.
21 Tracor Inc.
22 Exxon Corp.
23 Allied-Signal Inc.
24 DynCorp
25 Texas Instruments Inc.
26 BDM Corp.
27 Alliant Techsystems Inc.
28 Massachusetts Inst. of Tech.
29 Electronic Data Systems Corp.
30 Foundation Health Corp.

OK, so the Caryle Group hires well known political figures from all over the world to gain entry to the corridors of power and I'm not in love with the idea but then again Coke and Pepsi hire entertainers to break down the resistance of consumers to try their products. Not exactly the same thing but companies use whatever means necessary to gain an audience with people who are candidates to buy their products and services or decision makers in the process.

Haven't heard much about the Military Industrial Complex for some time Used to be the buzz words to ignite the wrath of liberals but you know what happened? A lot of those liberals became the power brokers in the next generation and developed cozy relationships with those they used to protest.

In all truth, I'm much more concerned about the CFR than the Caryle Group.

I don't recall that I personally stated a conspiracy associated with the Caryle Group. I think I said conspiracy theories place them in the vanguard of the new world order. I don't happen to personally believe in very many conspiracies of the world wide type.

The Caryle Group invests in a broad spectrum of companies across many sectors of the economy chasing profits. That's exactly what they should do considering they've taken other people's money to invest, including pension fund money that will someday be distributed to retirees.

Glad you agree the Caryle Group is doing nothing wrong in the legal sense. Some may not like the idea they are politically connected and I must say I'm not thrilled with the revolving door policies of the Washington political process.

jwhop

posted April 26, 2004 10:25 AM            

<sniff sniff> Do I smell a possibility in the air that jwhop will also be kind enough to share his concerns about the CFR?

posted April 26, 2004 10:59 AM            

juniperb

posted April 26, 2004 02:58 PM              

and Eleanore - i just noticed i have the same Ghandi quote on my outgoing home e-mail account - "walk the talk" is a daily challenge for me, and it's nice to have role models.

jw, what's the CFR? do you mean the Council on Foreign Relations? i found an article - which i haven't read yet cuz it's really loooong - about them at conspiracyarchive.com...

or maybe you're referring to the nefarious College of Forest Resources?

i'm sorry your sound didn't come in well - i had a problem with the video part but i could hear it okay. it is an interesting set of circumstances.

the venture capitalism part is not the focus. that's actually one place they do a good job of shooting down anything remotely "conspiracy" about it. (and i'm sure it's only Republicans taking advantage of the benefits :rolleyes Steve Norris, the founder, is a fabulous speaker and to hear him tell it the group happened quite by accident. but what it turned into is where it gets uncomfortable.

the disturbing issues for me are the following:

- they're the top US aerospace defense investor (an especially lucrative business during wartime - both Gulf Wars) - ye old "military industrial complex"

- the list of official and unofficial employees includes former presidents and high-ranking cabinet members, including Frank Carlucci, Reagan's Secretary of Defense, and of course, GB Senior (Colin Powell, too)

- Bush Senior meets with heads of state about their economies (including military defense) while Jr. meets with them about their political allegiance - do you see where this is going?

- the combined political and economic power of this group makes it virtually untouchable in DC

- yes, the bin Ladens are investment partners, but hey, there are a lot of them... but is this one of the main reasons Osama has such hatred for the US, because we - for all intents and purposes - control his country? it certainly doesn't excuse his terrorist actions but it could help explain them

- the US relationship with Saudi Arabia is really the problem, not Iraq. the saudis, as we all should know, manned the planes on 9-11. they ARE the terrorists. so why not go after THEM? why invade iraq? because of the poor suffering iraqis? or as a stronghold in the middle east from which to gain more manipulation control over Saudi Arabia. fine, why not just come right out and say that? it seems much more reasonable to me than this whole iraq thing. is it a case of two birds with one stone? or do the saudis really have that much power over the US that we don't touch what should be dealt with? i don't know but i'd like to explore this more

- not mentioned in the program but on my mind is the fact that the money Carlyle is playing with comes largely from the five months out of the year we work to pay our taxes. does this bother anyone else?

it seems these guys truly see no ethical conflict in these tight relationships. is a fish aware of water? if you swim your life in politics do you lose the ability to distinguish improper lobbying?

it's an accumulation of incredible power, jw, in an imbrobably small group of hands.

what do you think? anyone else get a chance to watch?

posted April 26, 2004 03:06 PM              

"and i'm sure it's only Republicans taking advantage of the benefits"

posted April 26, 2004 09:13 PM              

please humor me once again and tell me what the *edit* or just the asterisks on a word mean? maybe i'll get inside the loop yet

posted April 26, 2004 10:59 PM            

The "edit" icon I referred to is the little picture above everyone's posts, right next to the little picture (icon) for "profile". Only you or a moderator can edit your post, which is good I think, and very useful if you find you've made a grammatical error or something and wish to correct it without posting another reply. The "profile" icon you can click on to see what any knowflake has decided to share about him/herself through it. I add quotation marks around certain words for different reasons ... with the words in this post, I used them only to single out the words you'd be looking for above the posts. I'm not quite sure if that's grammatically appropriate, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Oh, yes, I also use them to separate replies that I write to different people in the same post. Like now ...

******

Xelena Ben
Don't worry, it's become one of my favorite little tools in replies because, as has been noted elsewhere, I do tend to write rather loooong posts.
And don't feel bad, I've had many people point out the obvious to me here as well, even in just past week. I agree it may be embarassing at times, but there's nothing like a little self- noted humbling to make you laugh at times. I've got Mars in Capricorn and Mercury in Sagittarius, trust me, I miss the little simple obvious things sometimes and certainly move at a slow pace as well.

posted April 27, 2004 03:57 PM            

Hope you don't mind if I take a liberty and shorten your handle to XB? Hehehe In military jargon that would stand for Experimental Bomber but that just occurred to me when I saw it on the page.

You've raised some interesting points so I'll take a run at some of them and see if you are satisfied with my answers.

I did not know Caryle is the top investor in American defense contractors. It would be helpful for Caryle to have advance information on upcoming defense contracts but only if they could discern which defense contractor is going to be the winning bidder.

These contracts are let after competitive bidding is complete and sometimes only after the companies have actually produced prototypes for military testing.

True, there are limited numbers of military contractors capable of building a new generation fighter, tank, bomber, etc., but if Caryle covers all the possible bases by investing in all the possibilities, they will suffer losses that will swamp their winners.

If Caryle is getting advance info on who the winning bidder actually is and in time to buy large positions in their stock, that would be acting on insider information, it's illegal, it's a felony, it's jail time if caught and certain cause for termination from the government job by whoever tipped them off.

If your concern is that Caryle is influencing the government to go to war so they can cash in on the military buildup or the continuing supply of military hardware and supplies during a war, I would doubt that and for the same reason I reject the notion the Iraq war is all about US corporations getting contracts to rebuild Iraq, it's oil fields and other institutional infrastructure.

I'm aware of the makeup of Caryle but I would suggest to you that Colin Powell could not be an employee or otherwise connected with the company while he is Sec. State. That would be a conflict of interest and the press would be all over the Bush Administration, not that the press isn't already all over the Administration. Government officials cannot have such conflicts.

While it may be true that former President Bush routinely meets with foreign heads of state and others high in their governments, I don't see any conspiracy there.

A fact often overlooked is that former Pres Bush is a very widely informed man with talents in lots of areas. True too, he is able to inform others and even council them on how our government works, what our attitude might be about something they are preparing to undertake or other issues they might need clarified.

Governments are vast bureaucracies so sometimes it's best to pass information through back channels instead of holding months or years of meetings.

I'm also sure President Bush, W has lots of meetings with other heads of State and lobbies them to come around to his way of thinking about issues. Again, I don't see any conspiracy there. Most things have simple explanations but those looking for a conspiracy attempt to complicate things and twist facts to fit their latest conspiracy theory.

It should also be kept in mind that Bush senior was also Director, Central Intelligence.

I think I already said somewhere that the bin Laden family is not part of the Saudi Royal family, is not involved in the main business of Saudi Arabia and IS involved in the construction business.

The oil business is a monopoly of the Saudi Royal family. I don't think for a minute Osama thinks the US controls Saudi Arabia. First, most of our oil comes from sources other than the Middle East. Second, OPEC sets the production quotas for it's members---which drives prices. If we controlled the major producer, oil prices would be much lower because we would increase production.

If anything, there is a general feeling that the Middle East oil producing nations and OPEC has the US and the rest of the industrialized world over a barrel. Not the other way around. That will continue until either new sources of oil are found or an economical alternative fuel to power our cars and industries.

It's true most--15 of the 9/11 hijacker/terrorists were Saudi citizens. But examined in a different light, it could be argued that was bin Ladens attempt to drive a wedge between the US and Saudi Arabia.

After all, he had terrorists of lots of different nationalities to draw from. I don't see Saudi Arabia---the government---the Royal family being involved in 9/11. Can you imagine what the consequences would have been for them? Additionally, Saudi Arabia is itself under attack and has been by the same terrorists group or groups.

There were multiple reasons for going after Iraq. Yes, he's a very bad man, yes he funded terrorists, yes he helped train terrorists, yes he had WMD---watch for news coming out about Syria in connection with Saddam's WMD.

There were reasons beyond those---in my view. Saddam had the strongest military force in the region--even after the first Gulf War. It was defeated in weeks.

A stable representative government in the area helps stabilize the entire region. American military and other coalition forces on the ground in the area sends and did send a message to Iran, Libya, Yemen, Sudan and Syria, all involved in terrorist activities.

The result is that Iran has agreed to nuclear inspections, Libya has abandoned their quest for nuclear weapons and Syria is under intense pressure to deal with their homegrown terrorists.

The fact that terrorists are pouring over the borders into Iraq just means that we won't have to go looking for them later.

So Iraq was a multifaceted solution to many problems. We need to finish that job. Yes, I think your comment is accurate except that there were a lot of birds that one stone dealt with.

The return on Caryle investments do not necessarily come from tax money. It comes from stock market investments both here and world wide. The stock price of any company may be up or down depending on many factors not related to how the company is being operated, their operating profits or their products.

In the case of the stock markets, perception drives prices---both ways. Perception is reality in the stock market. I could show you companies whose stock price is sharply up that is and has been losing money. The fact the company didn't lose as much this quarter as last can drive up their stock price--but they are still losing money.

My point is that Caryle invests in companies they think are going up and sometimes, mostly overseas or with small companies here, they lend some expertise---add value to the company and get problems resolved.

Sometimes the mere knowledge that certain people or investment firms are investing in a company drives their price up.

Your concern seems to revolve around Caryle influencing defense contracts and then buying into the companies they have helped get contracts. That tax money buys the military supplies or hardware and therefore, Caryle is profiting from tax money. I don't think so.

In fact, if that was the game, Caryle would buy a large enough stake in a company to take operational control, peddle their influence to get their new company contracts and then sell out for a very large profit. I don't think that's happening.

I think it may be a mistake to intermix the meaning of ethics and legality. Some of what you suggest is clearly illegal and the Clinton Administration would have gone after Caryle in a flash--considering the opportunity to give former high level GOP officials a very black eye and by extension the Republican Party.

Don't forget the hostility of the press to both the Republican Party and the Bush Administration. If any of your concerns were true, there would be a host of Democrat holdovers, at the State Dept., at the Pentagon, at the GAO and at many other government institutions who would "tip off" the press and feed them information.

Impossible to hide an operation like that which would of necessity involve a host of people, many of whom would be political enemies.

Most high level government officials and virtually all Presidents for at least 40 years or more have been members of the CFR. I don't like it. If it is an ego trip, I don't like it. If it's an indication a private group is influencing American Foreign policy in every Administration, Republican and Democrat, I like it much less.

Their goals may be benign but I don't know that and what the CFR thinks is benign might not and probably wouldn't seem benign to me.

Further, we elect our government here and the thought an influential group is running both candidates has occurred to me. That's the reason I said I was a lot more concerned about the CFR than the Caryle Group.

Sorry for the length but you ask complicated questions.

Now, what did you learn about the CFR?

jwhop

posted April 27, 2004 04:25 PM            

If memory serves me, the CFR became an American institution in 1921. I can`t tell you any more because article two of the then bylaws states :anyone revealing details of CFR meetings in contravention of the CFR`s rules could be dropped from membership. Besides, I love secrets

Seriously jwhop, it concerns me a great deal too and it puts the darkest cloud over the goverments rule.

juniperb

posted April 27, 2004 06:04 PM              

first, the two conspiracy sites equated CFR with the New World Order. which is a funny moniker that means the republicans taking over the world or the democrats taking over the world - or both being controlled by a larger force - depending on who you're talking to

from www.infowars.com (you'll love this site - mostly anti-bush but also anti-kerry)
"'Continuity of Government' Perpetuates Rule by Elitists: As a prelude to what a post-catastrophe Congress might look like, William F. Jasper points out that the Continuity of Government Commission is heavily laden with members of the Council on Foreign Relations, an organisation that has beenworking to subvert the Constitution for 80 years."

the other place i found CFR was www.conspiraryarchive.com:
"If one group is effectively in control of national governments and multinational corporations; promotes world government through control of media, foundation grants, and education; and controls and guides the issues of the day; then they control most options available. The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), and the financial powers behind it, have done all these things, and promote the "New World Order", as they have for over seventy years."
here's the link to the full article (which is at least more rational than the stuff they post on the site cited above): http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Council_Foreign_Relations.htm

unfortunately CFR's own website didn't give me any details on how they're currently planning to take over the world.

quote:

---

Further, we elect our government here and the thought an influential group is running both candidates has occurred to me.

---

yup, i hear you on that one.

by the way - what do you think about allegations that Bush is being influenced by Apocalyptics (doesn't that sound funny?), esp on Israel policy?

what do you think we should do about North Korea?

fyi, i don't think Carlyle is a conspiracy, just a new way for those who control to control a lot more. our government was designed to prevent that, but modern innovations have paved other pathways around the "checks and balances." in my opinion.

i'll take a little time to read over your post and see if i can clarify some of my earlier thoughts. one thing i can say is that powell worked with carlyle before becoming SoS - the documentary called it "the revolving door policy" - where DO those republican cabinet members go when the donkeys are in office? james baker is also on both carlyle and cfr lists.

with carlyle and tax dollars, i was referring to defense contracts. one of the incidents highlighted in the dutch show was in respect to the Crusader tank. the woman (democrat) who went after this issue did allegedly suffer repercussions. i wish your sound had worked!

quote:

---

Your concern seems to revolve around Caryle influencing defense contracts and then buying into the companies they have helped get contracts. That tax money buys the military supplies or hardware and therefore, Caryle is profiting from tax money. I don't think so.

In fact, if that was the game, Caryle would buy a large enough stake in a company to take operational control, peddle their influence to get their new company contracts and then sell out for a very large profit. I don't think that's happening.

---

not your first paragraph, but your second. Vinnel Corp (mentioned below) is the example used in the documentary.

i also didn't say the bin Ladens were saudi royalty - just that they were carlyle investors. there's a part in the program that talks about the carlyle buyout (they do buy controlling shares and then literally take charge of some companies - Steve Norris acted as Director in this case) of Vinnel Corp, an old defense contractor company. Vinnel had trained the Saudi National Guard (or its equivalent) to protect the Saudi royal family from in-country subversion. after the first al Qaeda attack (in Riyadh?) Osama said he wanted the infidels out - or something like that. that's one of the places i got the opinion about his intents concerning 9-11. i did not say and i do not think the saudi royal family was involved. they have too much to lose.

i'm not even going to touch the Syria thing... not to be cynical, but do you think maybe we'll find Osama guarding them at the syrian border in October?

quote:

---

Their goals may be benign but I don't know that and what the CFR thinks is benign might not and probably wouldn't seem benign to me.

---

i agree. "benign" is a relative term, and like i said about the carlyle group, just because these guys don't see a problem with it doesn't mean others won't - or shouldn't. now you've got me wondering about how many people have connections with both

quote:

---

If anything, there is a general feeling that the Middle East oil producing nations and OPEC has the US and the rest of the industrialized world over a barrel. Not the other way around. That will continue until either new sources of oil are found or an economical alternative fuel to power our cars and industries.

---

new sources of oil... would iraqi oil help?

yours truly,

posted April 27, 2004 09:18 PM            

Bolt your doors, they'll be coming for you soon. No need to flee nor is there anyplace to flee to, they're everywhere!

On a more serious note, I hope the CFR and the other secret organization don't have a one world government in mind. That's what I suspect. Many think it would be a step forward for humankind. I think it has the potential to bring about hell on earth and no chance of ever throwing off it's yoke of oppression.

Well, now you've enlarged the conspiracy. Did you forget the Club of Rome and the Rosicrucians?

jwhop

posted April 28, 2004 01:12 AM            

Well a hard headed woman,
a soft hearted man
been the cause of trouble
ever since the world began.
Oh yeah, ever since the world began
a hard headed woman been
a thorn in the side of man.

Now Adam told to Eve,
Listen here to me,
don't you let me catch you
messin' round that apple tree.
Oh yeah, ever since the world began
a hard headed woman been
a thorn in the side of man.

Now Samson told Delilah
loud and clear,
Keep your cotton pickin' fingers
out my curly hair.
Oh yeah, ever since the world began
a hard headed woman been
a thorn in the side of man.

I heard about a king
who was doin' swell
till he started playing
with that evil Jezebel.
Oh yeah, ever since the world began
a hard headed woman been a thorn in the side of man.

posted April 28, 2004 02:21 AM            

Hey listen world you've gotta know
I'm cuttin loose and lettin' go
Who needs the worry and the strife
Life can be a ball now just followin' my life
clambake, gonna have a clambake
clambake, gonna have a clambake

Look for the brightest lights in town
That's where you'll find me hanging round
I've got this feeling to be free
I pick and choose the life I want
And that's the life for me
clambake, gonna have a clambake
clambake, gonna have a clambake

Mamma's little baby loves clambake, clambake
Mamma's little baby loves clambake too
Mamma's little baby loves clambake, clambake
Mamma's little baby loves clambake too

All right

Look for the brightest lights in town
That's where you'll find me hanging round
I've got this feeling to be free
I pick and choose the life I want
And that's the life for me
clambake, gonna have a clambake
clambake, gonna have a clambake

Mamma's little baby loves clambake, clambake
Mamma's little baby loves clambake too
Mamma's little baby loves clambake, clambake
Mamma's little baby loves clambake too
Hey!

_________________________________

I mean, if you can't see the subtle references and hidden syllogism as proof of a conspiracy there Jwhop, I don't know what to tell you...he and the aliens are obviously working together towards world domination, just ask Mulder if you don't believe me

posted April 28, 2004 03:13 AM            

In the city of angels
Death is just a moment away
In the city of angels
Your future won't see the light of the day

Beware of the alien nation
Beware of the truth that they seek
They pray for eternal salvation
They pray for your soul to keep

On the eve of destruction
A reign of terror rules the street
When the heads start rolling
The devil comes to let it bleed

In the city of angels
Death is just a moment away
In the city of angels
Your future won't see the light of the day

Walk on past the alien nation
Walk on to the end of your reach
No fear of the alien nation
No fear of the hatred they preach

Don't run, there's no place to hide
Today or tomorrow it will get you
Don't move, the knife is right at your throat
And whatever you do, there's no way out
When the shroud comes down on this place
To bury us all alive
We'll know the time has come, to face the heat

Beware of the alien nation
Beware of the truth that they seek
They pray for eternal salvation
They pray for your soul to keep
Walk on past the alien nation
Walk on to the end of your reach
They pray for eternal damnation
They pray for your soul to keep

You mean Elvis is one of THEM and agent Mulder has the goods on them?

posted April 28, 2004 07:56 PM            

They were closer now Fernando
Every hour every minute seemed to last eternally
I was so afraid Fernando
We were young and full of life and none of us prepared to die
And I'm not ashamed to say
The roar of guns and cannons almost made me cry

There was something in the air that night
The stars were bright, Fernando
They were shining there for you and me
For liberty, Fernando
Though I never thought that we could lose
There's no regret
If I had to do the same again
I would, my friend, Fernando

Now we're old and grey Fernando
And since many years I haven't seen a rifle in your hand
Can you hear the drums Fernando?
Do you still recall the frightful night we crossed the Rio Grande?
I can see it in your eyes
How proud you were to fight for freedom in this land

There was something in the air that night
The stars were bright, Fernando
They were shining there for you and me
For liberty, Fernando
Though I never thought that we could lose
There's no regret
If I had to do the same again
I would, my friend, Fernando

There was something in the air that night
The stars were bright, Fernando
They were shining there for you and me
For liberty, Fernando
Though I never thought that we could lose
There's no regret
If I had to do the same again
I would, my friend, Fernando
Yes, if I had to do the same again
I would, my friend, Fernando...

____________________

...hell Abba was in on it too, Fernando is a code word for "them", "them" being . But when they threatened to go public, well, the rest is history...they're now a footnote on "Where Are They Now"

Plus if you play Fernando backwards...well I can't speak of it here, I may not be safe if I do

I mean, gah, what do you think happened to Jimi, Janice, Jim, etc? Duh?

Man, this is bigger than you think.

posted April 29, 2004 12:30 AM            

If you believe the story line, they are attacking the US with a scheme to lower our standard of living to equalize it with other nations so we may be more easily merged into a one world government.

Apparently, it never occurs to those who want to equalize the standard of living around the world to raise the standards elsewhere but rather their focus is on lowering ours---if you believe in the theory.
http://www.geocities.com/lord_visionary/clubofrome.htm

What do you think?

posted April 29, 2004 01:55 PM            

Well then if this is their goal:

quote:

---

The Committee of 300 looks to social convulsions on a global scale, followed by depressions, as a softening-up technique for bigger things to come, as its principal method of creating masses of people all over the world who will become its "welfare" recipients of the future

---

Michigan is one of the first states to fall into line. Our unemployment rate is skyhigh, we`re outsourced to death, welfare roles are breaking the state,tax`s still rising and no end in sight .

Thanks, I want to see if I can find some more on it.