posted April 22, 2004 07:00 PM            

If I say I think it's BS, someone will come out and say, typical conservative. If a liberal comes on and starts spouting about it, the conservatives will be doing this:

While I think we all (conserv. and libs) often want the same things, we just usually have diametrically opposed ideas of how to accomplish those things. Hence, everytime something like this gets discussed, it ends up being broken down to libs=for conserv=against (or vice versa). But to me, that's when the fun starts (the debate ensues). I don't mean mean-spirited name calling, or endless rambling about feelings, I mean where people discuss opposing ideas, and try to get their points across while finding some middle ground.

posted April 22, 2004 07:50 PM            

I don`t see it as a political conservative vs. liberal issue at all. Merely an understanding of how behind the scenes rulership works. Gore belongs to some of the groups as does Bush. It`s $$, blueblood,and global dominion not a specific political party.

posted April 22, 2004 08:19 PM            

First, the conspiracy theory that the Bush family is involved with bin Laden's family in the oil business.

True, there is a business connection but bin Laden's family is not in the oil business, is not part of the Saudi royal family and is instead in the construction business. Bin Laden's family has the concession to build government buildings in Saudi Arabia.

No question the Caryle Group is well connected with many former government official as members. That opens doors for the group, no doubt about it. However, most officials from all administrations, Senators, Congressmen/Congresswomen and even high level Congressional staff members wind up in influential law firms who lobby the government, or go directly into lobby organizations or public relations firms who represent candidates or major corporations.

But, it isn't against the law, it isn't sinister and it isn't a conspiracy. The United States doesn't go to war because the Caryle Group wants an oil/construction or other concession from a foreign country. We don't go to war because Haliburton wants to rebuild and refurbish the oil fields of Iraq and we don't go to war so Exxon Mobile or any other oil company can grab the oil fields of a foreign nation either. Oil is bought and sold on the open markets/futures markets at prices loosely set by OPEC but also affected by prices and competition from non OPEC suppliers.

posted April 22, 2004 08:21 PM              

is that partisan?

actually, these ideas were promoted by a religious-right group where i used to hear speakers once a month warn of big government and all of these things

politics and bedfellows being what they are, it seems they have ushered in these things through the "right" door while watching the "left"

sorry, that sounded partisan...just my observations, but they would have come in either door, you know. from what i have read, it is bigger than both parties, and you are right, both parties "dabble" in it all

is anyone really rich enough to have an inside line to their agenda?

posted April 22, 2004 08:48 PM            

Capitalists risk their money to build the companies that pay the salaries that buy the houses, cars, food, clothing and all the other things, both essentials and luxuries people need and want.

The Communist economic and governmental
model(s) have destroyed the economy and enslaved the people of every single nation where they have managed to murder their way into power.

posted April 22, 2004 11:47 PM            

quote:

---

jwhop, have you ever visited appalachia?

---

posted April 23, 2004 12:58 AM            

juniperb, yes, I am reading him right now. I kind of felt that chord struck, too, but I am curious to know more than just what this one guy says, you know? However, the whole Iron Triangle thing has always disturbed me a little. Lots of money and lots of political power is, well, a very powerful combination. Power, of course, is a double-edged sword.

Thanks for the insight, jwhop. I don't think the oil industry is necessarily the biggest issue, assuming this is all a conspiracy (which I'm not yet sure it is or it isn't). What struck me about the Carlyle group is the construction and rebuilding that will have to be done in Iraq and how they'll help it to come about. It's good that someone will help it happen, but it just looks a little strange to an outsider because of the connections with the current administration (and the previous ones) that they have. I'm not saying I understand all the workings behind the group or anything like that at all. I'm just curious. I do notice that you said, "Let's start with ..." Does that mean you have more to share?

posted April 23, 2004 01:24 AM              

(i meant the proverbial suffering poor in appalachia, not the resorts, in case you really did not get it)

posted April 23, 2004 07:48 AM            

Eleanore, dig deeper, check the sources at the back of the book. Then check the sources source ect. If you find a consistant theme/thread running thru the information,then perhaps you`ve found your answer. Which, of course, will always differ from anothers but makes it no less valid

juniperb

posted April 23, 2004 08:56 AM              

again, i learned about the new world order conspiracy theories from the conservative right, not the left

you know, the ones who conspired at watergate?

the left in general do not know what you are talking about...they only see the soulless corporations exempting themselves from the basic laws of humanity

individuals think they get by with the group energies absorbing all of the blame for such planful exploitation of the weak, and will not be accountable, but nuremburg proved otherwise

some day they will have to account, but to themselves as they fully realize the nature of their misdeeds, when they see the bigger picture from the spirit world to which we all return, where greed and heartlessness are not valued or rewarded

and isis, you invite folks to debate, and then attack them for being too long, too winding, too liberal... how nice is that?

i'm left to wonder what might have developed had you accepted my offer to go first. it went unacknowledged as does everything coming from the left...sigh...it will never end, and i am withdrawing from the "debate"

posted April 23, 2004 11:33 AM            

quote:

---

again, i learned about the new world order conspiracy theories from the conservative right, not the left you know, the ones who conspired at watergate?.

---

posted April 23, 2004 11:49 AM            

As a "debater, you have an obligation to back up what you say with some facts if you want to be taken seriously. I know that's a foreign concept to you so I'm not holding my breath.

quote:

---

i'm left to wonder what might have developed had you accepted my offer to go first. it went unacknowledged as does everything coming from the left...sigh...it will never end, and i am withdrawing from the "debate"

---

posted April 23, 2004 01:13 PM            

Most are unaware of the deplorable condition of most of the infrastructure of Iraq's institutional systems, including the oil fields. Saddam wasn't spending a dime for repair and maintenance. Instead, he was pocketing the revenues from the sale of oil which is/was Iraq's only major export item. Oh, he was also using oil revenues to bribe officials around the world to resist a coalition invasion to remove him, including it appears high UN officials, the French and Russians---investigation in progress.

These are some of the big American players in restoring the infrastructure of Iraq. I'm sure there are others, including subsidiaries but if the Caryle Group has any stake in any of the companies beyond owning some of their stock, it isn't apparent. Nor are these companies interlocked through directors because they compete against each other for business around the world for contracts within their specialty.

Owning stock in mature corporations in mature industries is not the Caryle Group's business model. They buy large interests in up and coming companies, help them over the humps with issues Caryle personnel are well equipped to handle and sell out when the value of the company rises through profitable business activity.

Not necessarily in the order of the value of contracts.
Halliburton.
Science Applications International Inc
Baker-Hughes
Fluor Corporation
DynCorp Aerospace Operations/Computer Sciences Corporation
Bechtel
Washington Group International

posted April 23, 2004 02:31 PM            

Back to the Carlyle group, I've heard people refer to them as a kind of brokerage group. Do you think that description is fitting?

*****

Wow, juniperb, do I feel sillyl . I haven't gotten all the way through the book and I'm one of those who doesn't like to look at the back of books until I finish them. I did look this time and there are indeed many, many sources available for research there. Thanks for pointing me towards the obvious, really, I appreciate it.

posted April 23, 2004 03:29 PM            

I wonder why it is differences of opinion on the purported facts result in it being a 'conspiracy theory'? A you against me rather than an honest set of different truths for diverse people

juniperb

posted April 23, 2004 03:31 PM            

juniperb

posted April 23, 2004 03:49 PM            

Clandestine - Conducted with secrecy; withdrawn from public notice, usually for an evil purpose; kept secret; hidden; private; underhand

Certainly alot of these theories involve secret, hidden, private, and arguably evil purposes ... but they are not always illegal.

Ah, the beauty of the english language!

posted April 23, 2004 08:42 PM            

What makes you think the oil companies aren't already involved in hydrogen fuel research and development? Those refineries are just big chemical plants. I give them credit for having enough common sense to see the handwriting on the wall that the days of refining oil into gasoline are numbered.

They already have the distribution system locked up by owning the land on the corners of most American cities. Those will be the refill stations in the future as they are now---unless some wise guys come up with a process for direct conversion from water to hydrogen. Then fill er up will consist of sticking your water hose in the tank inlet and turning on the tap. I'd really like that. Then Burger King and McDonald's can build more hamburger stands---one on every corner.

The Caryle Group is not a brokerage firm. They do not buy and sell stock for clients. They take clients money to invest in business ventures and pay a return on that investment from whatever they've bought and sold. They come a lot closer to Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway except that the Caryle Group is not a publicly traded stock company.

Hey Juniperb, hang in there, bikini weather is just around the corner for you too. My arms and face are getting brown but it freaks my clients out when I show up in swim trunks and flip flops.

jwhop

posted April 23, 2004 09:15 PM            

As for the oil companies investing in and researching alternative fuels ... wow! I had heard a rumor of that kind from ... I think an e-mail ... but I haven't been able to track much down on it, though I must admit I haven't made any grand efforts to do so either. It just seemed like a logical conclusion to me. I'm glad some of those companies feel the same way.

posted April 26, 2004 01:15 AM              

this has been on my mind lately, too. i don't think there's a "conspiracy" in the way jw implies, but this Dutch documentary presents the information in a way that i found disturbing. the amount of power these individuals have gained over the political sphere doesn't sound like something the founding fathers had in mind.

and you know what, as jw says it IS legal. but that certainly doesn't make it right.

the program is long but worth watching if you're interested in Carlyle - even just to know how they got their name! i'd love to hear your commentary.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm

cheers

posted April 26, 2004 01:38 AM            

It is a very curious issue to me. My immediate reaction was one of proportions.
Then I began to wonder about the other side of the story and what the people who think that it is not some kind of huge conspiracy have to say. I must admit, aside from what has been posted here, I haven't been able to uncover much information in regards to them that is not linked to a conspiracy theory, unless it is quotes from the members themselves and things like that. I still can't make up my mind but I'm searching for more information. Both sides so far have presented good points, but I also agree that just because something is legal it isn't necessarily a good thing, and vice versa.

What did you think about the presentation?