posted May 16, 2004 04:30 PM              

I mean, theoretically the Piscean Age could've been swell - the answer to mankind's woes; it could've been a beautiful, peaceful age of Universal Empathy and Love for all of Existance coupled with a trancendental realization of our own individual and combined capacity for meaningful works in the world and for our fellow man.
Instead it was primarily manifest as an embrace of Illusion and Delusion, a giving away of our power to those who would rather wield it, and a seeking for trancendental obliteration (see: millenial movements, Apocalyptic claims, and the like).

The Aquarian Age may be one of cold over-rationalization , complete subjugation of the One in favor of the good of the Whole (the Brotherhood of Mankind), a time where the possible benefits of technological achievement and breakthrough plow under the warm, organic side of humanity and life; we could forget the possible repercussions of our actions and here-and-now realities by being hyper-focused on the Grand Ideals being pursued.

------------------
What you can do, or think you can, begin it.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

posted May 16, 2004 04:49 PM              

i think it is our natural resistance to yielding up our egos to the Higher S-elf in every age that causes all the problems

but, apparently the coming of the vision of washington (posted under destiny of the U.S.) and the apocalyptic counterparts spoken of throughout the ages, will be so horrific that this "umbra" will finally achieve what has not been achievable in all these eons--convincing people that their egos are the cause of their problems, and that the Higher S-elf alone is worthy of following

that would explain why all of the biblical thoughts, fairy tales, astrological projections, and sundry visions reach the same conclusion--that when the male and female counterparts find balance, we will be in the millenial age of aquarius

and this "pie in the sky" will be served up from the celestial bakery

posted May 16, 2004 05:14 PM              

just how might they manifest in the promised peace of the age of aquarius?

i am reminded of the sioux indians, who died clinging to their vision of the ghost dance. the timing just wasn't right, i guess

so sad, though

i think it was a better day to die for them than it was for custer, though, since they were the aggressors on someone else's land and all

posted May 16, 2004 05:38 PM            

I'm beginning to get a far better picture of where you're coming from, where you get your news and ideas for what you post here.

For instance, David Cline. Here's a connection you didn't mention.

International Socialist Review Issue 31, September–October 2003 Interview with David Cline
Journal of Revolutionary Marxism
Article http://www.isreview.org/issues/31/cline.shtml
Who they are, International Socialists Organization

http://www.internationalsocialist.org/

http://isreview.org/
Journal of Revolutionary Marxism

With direct links to:

Socialist Worker Online http://www.socialistworker.org/

How about another article by Cline. Note the forums that carries his articles.

The People’s Weekly World is the newspaper of the Communist Party, USA
http://www.pww.org/article/author/view/683
Who they are! http://www.pww.org/article/static/320/

Strange ideas you have Raine. Are you really gullible enough to believe those people share your ideals? Or is it that you share theirs?

posted May 16, 2004 06:25 PM              

A military made up of humans will always be subject to human failures and flaws, no matter who's administration they're serving under. To expect anything else is foolhardy and not reality based, at this stage of human evolution, anyway. At least your military's men and woman are a few paces ahead of some, because they don't slice innocent people's heads off with butcher knives and tape it to show on t.v. just for impact.

I started a new thread asking how those who are above all of this would have responded to 9/11 if the responsibility of protecting the nation were theirs.

posted May 16, 2004 07:50 PM            

Although Cicero's family did not belong to the Roman aristocracy, he was supported in the competition for the consulship in 64 bc by most rich and powerful Romans because of their distrust of his aristocratic but less respectable rival, Lucius Sergius Catilina, known as Catiline. Cicero was elected, but during his administration Catiline organized a plot to overthrow the government. Cicero suppressed the conspiracy and had several members of Catiline's group executed. Julius Caesar and other Roman senators argued that Cicero had acted too hastily, without giving the conspirators due process of law. Because Cicero refused to make peace with Caesar, Pompey's archrival, in 58 bc he was forced into exile. After a year in Macedonia he was recalled at the instigation of Pompey.

Cicero occupied himself with reading and writing philosophy until 51 bc, when he accepted an assignment to govern the Roman province of Cilicia as proconsul. He returned to Rome in 50 bc and joined Pompey, who had by now become Caesar's bitter enemy. After Pompey was defeated by Caesar in 48 bc, Cicero, realizing that further resistance was hopeless, accepted Caesar's overtures of political friendship. While Caesar was virtual dictator of Rome, Cicero lived as a private citizen and wrote extensively. After Caesar's assassination in 44 bc, Cicero returned to politics. Hoping to see a restoration of the Republic, he supported Caesar's adopted son, Octavian, later the emperor Augustus, in a power struggle with the Roman consul Mark Antony. Octavian and Antony were reconciled, however, and Cicero was proscribed and murdered on December 7, 43 bc.

In his writings Cicero created a rich prose style that has exercised a pervasive influence on all the literary languages of Europe. His writing covers numerous subjects of intellectual interest, and he greatly enriched the vocabulary of his own language as well as those of the modern European tongues. Nearly all of his philosophical works were borrowed from Greek sources and, apart from their intrinsic merit, are of great value in preserving much of Greek philosophy that might otherwise have remained unknown. Outstanding are the treatises On the Republic, On the Laws, On Duty, and On the Nature of the Gods. His rhetorical works, written in dialogue form—particularly On the Orator—are of value as the products of an accomplished rhetorician and as a rich source of historical material. The most famous of his orations are the 4 speeches against Catiline and the 14 so-called Philippics against Antony.

Among the minor works of Cicero, the treatises On Old Age and On Friendship have always been admired for their tone of cultivated geniality. Highly important for historians are four collections of letters written by Cicero to acquaintances and friends. These letters are a spontaneous self-revelation of their author and an excellent source of information on the politics of the final years of the Roman Republic.

--------------------------------------------

OK, for all it's worth, if your going to quote on Cecero,you might as well conclude that if his ventures were brought out here in (modern times), I know that he would have been perceived as an hostile radical,rebellion-driven socialist against the infrastructure of the United States Government(mostly against lobbyism,of all things).
Note: I said "modern times".

Where is that any differences in what someone that claims to be a socialist would that make differ?

Here's the difference,the Romans choosed him to be a diplomat anyway(even though that didn't pan out for him),his writings brought influence and shaped the way for the Roman Empire,but all they were are writings and that's that.

The articals that you posted JW,are about the same thing,just writings. To most it would be nothing more than a "pipe dream" in Washington,but it does send ideals for the windows to open, to a more beautiful view to those who are inspired into the "dream" and later could be apreciated by most!

Don't you agree?

posted May 16, 2004 08:40 PM              

quote:

---

Thank You Raine
I'm beginning to get a far better picture of where you're coming from, where you get your news and ideas for what you post here.

---

but then the spite surfaced:

quote:

---

Raine, Cicero had something to say about you

---

calling me a traitor is mighty inflammatory, especially in this political climate. might you admit to being just a wee bit out of line in labelling anyone who does not see things your way as a traitor?

you declare social values to be "traitorous" and boil american freedom down to two choices:

1) patriotic supporters of the president right or wrong

2) traitors

but true patriots would roll over in their graves at such tyranny--after all, had they "supported the king, right or wrong" we would still belong to england!

and it might surprise you to know that outside of neoconservative circles, the ideals of socialism enjoy a great deal of respect and admiration. do not confuse soviet or chinese communism with socialism

juvenile and repetitive name-calling and juxtaposition of the two does a gross disservice (yes, names DO hurt people, and you lead others to think that they are one and the same)

just as this tactic was used to get us into this whole iraq mess in the first place, remember? it was osama, not saddam. i know they sound similar, but they are not one and the same person, any more than communist china reflects socialist values

no system is perfect, and capitalism might work fine, if it were not for greed. talk about being idealistic and not accounting for human nature!

"capitalism favors the few; socialism benefits the many..."

imo, social values appear to be much closer to the ideal of the golden rule. one flaw would be that it needs to be collectively imposed upon those ever-complaining rich few, inasmuch as they are not always willing to share. they hoard and accumulate more, and hoard more and more and more in their discontent, and do not realize how much of the globe's resources they have already grabbed. howard hughes, the richest man in the world at one point, was asked how much money it would take to make him happy. his pitiful answer reflects how money does NOT make you happy: "Just a little bit more" (not to mention the karma incurred. probably the untouchables in india were once hoarders, eh?)

so the flaw, then, would seem to be that, due to greed, any imposition is even necessary at all. after all, how much wealth would there be if the laborers didn't create it? didn't the garbage strike make that point adequately?

is it then so "traitorous" to seek to establish community standards that reflect more fairness? why should anyone be denied at least the subsistence level of means, while others are consumed by their overabundance? capitalistic entities like enron skew the playing field, not the workers whose life savings were drained

why is the idea of keeping the playing field a bit more level, and giving everyone a chance at the good life, so abhorrent to you?

how about you say something positive about your own beliefs, instead of launching a generic attack on whatever i post? we might learn something and even "convert"

or is it that you are so busy hiding the flaws that have yet to be mended, that you have no time to really support your own position? if we are to ask god to mend our flaws, then it would certainly seem necessary to acknowledge them, rather than deny them or bury them in the most heinous justifications i have read for these really, really bad flaws

yes, sadly, as the imperfections of "the american way" are becoming more and more apparent, as evidenced by the systemic ugliness in abu ghraib, people seem to cling ever more tenaciously to the illusion of perfection, unwilling to tolerate any hint of any idea of room for improvement

somehow, it got lost in here that so many of those iraqis had committed no crime whatsoever. at least they are now being released, but at what price to our "perfect" image?

a person can love this country and still allow room for criticism and improvement. we the people have that responsibility, in fact, do we not? isn't that what america is all about?

but, clearly, no suggestions of possible flaws can be tolerated here. is THAT the kind of america we want? we need to put the whole post-9/11 america on rewind and take a closer look at what has happened here

and as i said long ago, i would really like to learn from your own perspective. i still feel that way. what IS your ideal?

some ideas about why the moslem world feels as it does have occurred to me, but that is for another thread. i might just post them elsewhere, though, if i feel no one is listening anyway

they seem to parallel our own development and might teach us something about where to go from here...

posted May 16, 2004 11:50 PM            

quote:

---

Strange ideas you have Raine. Are you really gullible enough to believe those people share your ideals? Or is it that you share theirs?

---

Actually Raine, those groups aren't socialists so don't even try to sell that argument. They're Marxists and other assorted varieties of Communists. Your friends at the National Lawyers Guild are too. That's when I began to suspect you aren't a liberal at all, when you started wringing your hands over the subpoenas handed out at Drake. You're much further to the left than mere liberalism Raine.

Your friends are actively involved in attempting to overthrow not only the government of the US but the economic and social system too. That's the goal American and International communists have worked on for at least 70 years.

All that talk about social justice, workers rights, blah, blah, blah. Just show me one example of communism past or present where any of those buzz words were ever put into effect by the communist thugs who murdered their way into power. While you're at it Raine, show me a successful communist nation past or present. For that matter Raine, show me a communist government that didn't or doesn't oppress their citizens.

And you'd like to show America the glories of Communism? No thanks Raine, you take communism and put it where the sun "don't" shine and your communist friends too.

You're perfectly free in America to express your views, even if you are flying under a false flag while doing so. On the other hand, I feel perfectly free to tell you what disgusting examples of humanity communists really are.

Ozone, there you go again, making totally insupportable statements. And this time statements impugning the character of a man dead more than 20 centuries but no matter Ozone, we know what Cicero said about the enemies within and it's as true today as it was when Cicero said it.

What you need to do is substantiate that Cicero, if alive today would be a socialist. Think you can do that Ozone? I don't and I'm not willing to take your word for it. Fortunately Cicero did a lot of writing and quite a bit survived through the centuries. Happy reading Ozone.

jwhop

posted May 17, 2004 07:45 AM              

inasmuch as you offer nothing worthwhile, and show no interest in anyone else's point of view, i am left to assume that you have nothing to offer except nitpicking and attack

so any future posts will be unread

posted May 17, 2004 08:37 AM            

The clouds prepare for battle
In the dark and brooding silence
Bruised and sullen storm clouds
Have the light of day obscured
Looming low and ominous
In twilight premature
Thunder heads are rumbling
In a distant overture...

All at once, the clouds are parted
Light streams down in bright unbroken beams...

Follow men's eyes as they look to the skies
The shifting shafts of shining weave the fabric of their dreams...

posted May 17, 2004 10:37 AM            

quote:

---

All that talk about social justice, workers rights, blah, blah, blah. Just show me one example of communism past or present where any of those buzz words were ever put into effect by the communist thugs who murdered their way into power. While you're at it Raine, show me a successful communist nation past or present. For that matter Raine, show me a communist government that didn't or doesn't oppress their citizens.

---

But I knew you couldn't and that no one on earth could because no examples exist and never will or could.

Everything falls into place sooner or later Raine. For example, why all the radical leftists protest the war in Iraq to remove Saddam. Why International A.N.S.W.E.R., a communist front organization for the Workers World Party, itself a flat out communist organization organized all those protest marches to protest the United States and circulated petitions to impeach the President, why indeed?

The real name of Saddam's political party in Iraq is The Arab Baath Socialist Party.

This is their mission statement.
The Arab Baath Socialist Party
One Arab Nation with an Eternal Mission
Unity, Liberty, Socialism

Isn't Socialism wonderful?

By the way, I found that on another communist organization's website.
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/05/110250.php

The Arab Baath Socialist Party May 4th 2004 Statement!!!
by The Arab Baath Socialist Party May 4th 2004 S Thursday May 13, 2004 11:03 AM

Free President Saddam Hussein!!! Victory to Iraqi Arab and Islamic Armed Resistance!!! Death to Zionist AmeriKKKa!!! Join the Iraqi Resistance Solidarity

This is the way they address Saddam Hussein, Comrade! Yep Comrade Saddam Hussein. Doesn't that sound oh so familiar? Comrade?

* The technical and professional connection with the programmes,
documents and political archives concerning the political leadership
activities, meetings and discussions with a special attention to
Comrade Saddam Hussein the Iraq Secretary General of the Party and
the President of the Republic

It also makes sense that the target of the various communist groups is the United States. Yep, we're just terrible, terrible people with a terrible, terrible government to hear the communists talk.

But, the true evil in the world is never addressed. The communist dictatorship in North Korea, the communist dictatorship in Cuba, the communist dictatorship in China, the communist dictatorship in Vietnam and never, never the communist dictatorship that was the former Soviet Union.

Surely, if their passion is workers rights, rights of any kind whatsoever, justice, blah, blah, blah, then they would be out protesting those countries which were and are the most extreme, repressive governments in the world. No way, those are their buddies.

So, while you're out and about trying to wrap the mantle of moral and spiritual superiority around yourself and the communists you quote, you should be aware not everyone thinks with their emotions Raine. Eventually, even the emotional thinkers will see through your facade and put your buzz words into the proper context with what you truly support. In my opinion, that isn't love and light, it's the utter darkness of tyranny.

posted May 17, 2004 11:16 AM            

I was in no way questioning your background or your feelings on the matter. I do take offence to the way some, especially in our current rewriting of history, have protrayed American Indian's as being a bunch of peace pipe - dreamers that had not inclination of war.

I do understand where you are coming from and while I personally do not like war, I do understand the necessity of defending ones family, country or other people from various evil elements.

There are some tribes that did not value the feminine, that is true, but on the other hand there were other tribes that were matriarchal in orgin with the females making many valid decisions and holding high places in the ceremony - as well as in war council.

I only have a problem, and this was not directed to you, with the glamorization of our past and history. I am very proud of my background, as I am sure you are, but I will in no way pretend that I come from a "peace-loving" people. Being that I also have Spanish and German blood, I guess I can trace my background back to many warlike people...then again..can't we all?

posted May 17, 2004 11:21 AM            

If you don't like for what I have to say,then "Oh well!" TOO BAD! It is still my opinion and your not in any way in the "right" to contest it!

LIKE IT OR LUMP IT! BUDDY!

posted May 17, 2004 02:55 PM            

...but that doesn't go without saying that we've could of resorted in another method into capturing these terrorist and shuting down ALL the sleeping cells of the ALL the possible networks that might be involve!

Not even concidering of the fact whether or not that we've put our soldier's lives in harm's way into a trap perhaps,but to cut down the number of soldiers that might require the proper "search and sieger" in order to locate these "cells" is hearting enough to the militaries that are already spread out way too thin and that's including the one's that still refuse to want to stay the course of the war on terror!

posted May 17, 2004 04:27 PM            

Well, that accounts for your little tantrum.

I notice you seem to "feel" a lot, as opposed to thinking. I feel a lot too Ozone but I reserve feelings for family, children, friends, my dog spot, my cat fluffy, my
car(s) and other things and people to whom I have emotional connections.

Hey Ozone, you're welcome to your opinion You're also free to tell me to like it or lump it. Sadly, that's only 2 choices Ozone so I'll take what's behind door number 3 as I always do when someone attempts to limit my choices.

Hmmm, take care of that blood pressure "buddy."

jwhop

posted May 17, 2004 04:52 PM            

quote:

---

Couldn't find anything to back up your statement that Cicero would be a socialist if he were alive today Ozone? Pity!

---

Would it make you happy to tell you that I didn't even bother to look? I had some other things to do today, rather then quench your thirst for the "amusement" setting that you like to embark on.

posted May 17, 2004 05:10 PM            

It's amusing how some feel that they can just make accusations and allegations about whatever they want, and they won't let any of those pesky facts get in the way of their beliefs.

You go OZ, don't you let any of those damned facts get in the way of your beliefs.

Because what's important is that everyone FEELS good about what they say, regardless of its relevance, truth, or their ability to substantiate it. Facts schmacts, right?

posted May 17, 2004 05:32 PM            

quote:

---

KILL THEM ALL...(Every last ************ who supports those guys, regardless of whether it's a member of Al Queda or some average ******** Iraqi)

---

...and

quote:

---

Sympathy my ass. Nuke em. That's what tactical nukes are for...

---

Let me spell it out of you Isis,that's called GENOCIDE and is the most heinous warcrime EVER! ...and with nuclear weapons on top of that? Now I thought to myself that you might have been just angry and you needed to cool off your engines,but then the next day you backed up your words over it and then you wonder why Raine was explaining to you that "the spirit of Murder surrounds you"?

I know Isis,you just have no feelings for much of anything and I think that thing with Nick Berg was nothing more then to just get everyone's attention!

THINK about it!

posted May 17, 2004 05:34 PM              

You must think I'm a total idiot! I can't believe you actually thought that I was saying Karla Faye Tucker was "out of her mind" from smoking marijuana and killing two people that night....sheeeses!

You said....

"I hate to beat a dead horse, but Rainbow, are you seriously suggesting Karla Faye Tucker murdered two people because she used marijauana?"

The answer is NO! Raine was correct in her response to that question...in fact, "right as rain."

Karla was an addict. Addicts are "sick" people...so she was sick...

She started on marijuana at 8, was using heroine at 11, cocaine at 13, and trained by her mother as a prostitute at 14...not exactly the best background for producing a cheerleader or a Miss America..

During her formative years this child had no guidance or discipline....something that every child is entitled to. (she was not nutured...she just grew!)

When one is on drugs, there is never any room for clear thinking...and even those times when drugs are not available, withdrawal hell, is also not condusive to clear thinking...all they want is MORE DRUGS to make it better...*sigh*

Karla had been on a solid three day binge of drink and drugs just prior to the murder. And tho I'm not a professional, I think it would be fair to draw the conclusion that she was "not in her right mind" when she did it.

She was a Scorpio with Mars conjunct her Sun (and this is not an excuse, but an observation), so she was intense in her desire to get revenge on the guy who beat up her friend, altho the original intention was to only steal his motorcycle...

The murder was brutal! It was horrific! The Karla of that time was indeed an evil murderess....but she had 14 years to clear the drugs from her system, start thinking clearly, and find a spiritual life.

...and the low scorpio became an EAGLE. I saw her many times on TV, and it was so obvious that she was really a changed person..but her death, was deemed necessary by those who were gung ho to see that punishment was carried out...

That she was rehabilitated and was finally doing good for those in the prison, who felt helpless and hopeless, cut no mustard with those who were hell bent on punishment.

God forbid that He should not forgive us our sins....for the whole damn bunch of us would be GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL! (but then God has a heart )

Rainbow