posted May 14, 2004 06:22 PM            

Where in any of my posts did I call you any names?

Like I said, I'll respect your right to your opinions if you respect mine. Keep your smug, holier-than-thou insinuations to yourself. That's not respect for others.

posted May 14, 2004 06:23 PM              

the fact remains we murdered her

and you might question why this spirit of murder surrounds you, manifested in this seed:

quote:

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Keep your smug, holier-than-thou insinuations to yourself.

---

posted May 14, 2004 06:25 PM            

More than making up for her crime? By whose standards? Yours?

We did not murder anyone. Speak for yourself, I'm sorry if you feel in any way responsible for her court-ordered excectuion. I don't.

And you might question why you feel so superior to others that you can't allow others to have their own opinions without name calling and condescension.

Look inwards Raine, before pointing the finger at others.

posted May 14, 2004 06:30 PM            

Every appeal had been examined by courts of appropriate jurisdiction where they were filed and denied up to and including the United States Supreme Court. Every legal maneuver had been tried and failed. The Texas Pardons Board had rejected a plea for commutation of the death sentence. At that point, every legal remedy had been exhausted.

The double murders were committed on June 13, 1983 and she was executed on February 3, 1998 almost 15 years later.

I resent your statement calling the President a murderer. The only murderer here was Karla Faye Tucker but it's typical of your Bush hating rhetoric.

posted May 14, 2004 06:31 PM            

This is America. I believe in your right to have your opinion, but I must insist you allow me my right to the same. Without calling me immature, or telling me the "spirit of death surrounds me" because of it.

Or can I start putting you down for your beliefs?

posted May 14, 2004 06:32 PM              

did you not read my post under the destiny of the U.S.? these are not my ideas; you are arguing with the heavens

and why are you so angry? casting about such angry words will attract more negativism into your world

you are trying to pick a fight, and i am going to take a soaking bath--in WATER--to try to douse and rinse away the fiery darts being cast about

posted May 14, 2004 06:33 PM            

This is America. I believe in your right to have your opinion, but I must insist you allow me my right to the same. Without calling me immature, or telling me the "spirit of death surrounds me" because of it.

Or can I start putting you down for your beliefs?

posted May 14, 2004 06:35 PM            

No one wants to pick a fight with you Raine. You pick fights. By your condescending manner of communication. Jwhop and I have, however, managed to avoid your fight, by sticking to facts, and by giving both you and ourselves the right to an opinion, something I might add you do not appear to be willing to do.

posted May 14, 2004 06:36 PM            

It would, and you damn well know it, you're too old to be playing these kinds of games, so do us all a courtesy and stop.

posted May 14, 2004 06:42 PM              

i just didn't want it to get buried in all of this

posted May 14, 2004 06:42 PM            

I don't know what you see when you look in the mirror Raine. Perhaps it's the spiritually evolved person you claim to be. It doesn't show through in your posts but if you truly were you wouldn't feel the need to remind everyone with every post.

posted May 14, 2004 08:50 PM              

Having said that, maybe I'd better follow up...so that Raine doesn't feel all the heat, by herself.....

To begin with, I am very much against the death penality.

As they say, two wrongs don't make a right and....the Lord said "Vengence is Mine" (according to the Bible)....so we have no business interferring there...

What's more, before DNA testing who knows how many innocent people went to the death chamber?

.....and THANK GOD some innocent people have been released since DNA can now give us true facts instead of what a court or jury says...

Karla was no threat to society....The first chance she had to clear up her foggy head was during her time in prison, because prior to that she had been very much into drugs starting on marijuana when but a child, and people on drugs can't think straight....She was very high on drugs when the murder was committed (not that it's an excuse), but nonetheless, was not in her right mind.....after having had the chance to clear the evil stuff from her system, during her prison stay, she found that her real happiness came from the spiritual life she found there, and not the false happiness she found in drugs......

She was a changed person...prison was probably the best thing that ever happened to her....she even married the prison chaplain...she was doing good work in prison....to end her life was as insane as what she did to get herself into prison.

For those who claimed that she "found religion" to try and get out of the execution, I hope they had a change of heart, after learning how bravely she went to her death....(not kicking and screaming like Ted Bundy)....She truly had faith that she would find something better on the other side...

posted May 14, 2004 08:52 PM              

quote:

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for anyone actually interested in learning about global unity, you might want to go back to page 7 and read my post about what the heavens have to say about it, supplemented with a post on the destiny of the U.S.

---

posted May 14, 2004 09:31 PM              

Karla's Austin and Houston attorneys filed with the State of Texas an application/petition for thirty day reprieve from execution of death sentence and for commutation of sentence to imprisonment for life. This document is not available for viewing on the Internet but contains a wealth of information about the judicial history of Karla's case as well as compelling testimonials from important people asserting Karla's full rehabilitation. For example, Charley Davidson (a prosecutor of Karla's accomplice, Garrett) publicly stated (Jan. 1998)

"The Karla Tucker who killed Jerry Dean and Debra Thornton cannot be executed by the State of Texas because that person no longer exists. The Karla Tucker who remains on death row is a completely different person who, in my opinion, is not capable of those atrocities. I am comfortable enough with this belief that, if possible, I would welcome Karla into my house to meet my family. If the purpose of the death penalty is to execute an individual solely for a crime they have committed, then Karla Faye Tucker should be executed. However, if the purpose is to execute an individual for what they have done and what they now are, then Karla Faye Tucker should not die. She is no longer a threat to society. As such, even though she will not ask for it herself, I believe Governor Bush should commute her sentence to life. Based not only on what she did but what she has become, I feel justice would have been done."

By Texas law, the Governor can commute a death sentence only with the recommendation of a majority of the Board of Pardons and Paroles. There are 18 members of this board which is chaired by Victor Rodriguez. The Parole Board members receive by mail information regarding the bid for clemency and mail in their votes. By law, their job is only to review the facts of the criminal case to ensure the prisoner received a fair trial.

While they are not required to meet with the prisoner, Victor Rodriguez did meet with Karla Tucker and reviewed the facts of her trial. At this time, it is my understanding that no questions or weight was put on Ms. Tucker's behavior on Death Row following her conviction and sentencing. Mr. Rodriguez is quoted as saying that "commutation of a death sentence should be granted for only two reasons: actual innocence or a lack of due process."

On Feb 2nd, the Paroles Board unanomously voted to deny Karla's clemency request: 16 nay, 2 abstains (one person always abstains). "The board felt ... that given the information that we have about this case, that it ... does not recommend commuting the sentence from a death penalty to a lesser penalty," board chairman Victor Rodriguez told reporters at a news conference in Austin. He also said that the gruesome nature of the case "carried a lot of weight" in the board's decisions. Responding to the fact that Karla's and 16 previous clemency bids (in 1997) did not receive even a single vote for clemency, Mr. Rodriguez said, "No one has yet to make a strong enough case for commutation,"
Without a majority recommendation, Gov. Bush was denied any opportunity to commute Karla's sentence. The Governor does have the authority to grant a one-time 30-day stay of execution to let the Paroles Board reconsider it's decision.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/2525/karlamain.html

Yes Raine....the rainbow after the rain...but of course...

posted May 14, 2004 09:55 PM              

Houston Chronicle, August 11, 1999

From the same website as above...

"Typical Dubya"

posted May 14, 2004 10:09 PM            

Your article above that even states that he can't do anymore than issue a stay of execution for 30 days.

posted May 14, 2004 10:42 PM              

and i do not wish to lose the sobering gist of this thread

but how much better it is to imprint a vision of the rainbow upon the psyche, rather than man's inhumanity to man, whether it be in the form of beheadings and scalpings, women scorched at the stake, or the implementation of the indescribable instruments of torture on display in the museum of african slavery

i do not need these reminders to know that humanity has a long way to go to rise to the level of animals

and if we keep dwelling on these "human" things, how will we ever attain the peace promised in the stars, and reinforced in washington's vision, posted under the destiny of the U.S.?

posted May 14, 2004 11:44 PM              

Yes, the article DOES say he can't do anymore than issue a stay of execution for 30 days......and it continues...

...to let the Paroles Board reconsider it's decision.

Meaning that with an extra thirty days, there's a possibility that the board might change it's mind and allow her to live...

It's interresting too, that you call it a lie that BUSH MOCKED A WOMAN HE DECIDED TO PUT TO DEATH....

True...maybe it was not for him to decide to put her to death (and I'm sure he didn't give a rat's @$$ if she lived either.....)

However, there's no denying that he Mocked her, with his stupid superior attitude...

Rainbow

posted May 14, 2004 11:56 PM              

"I do not need these reminders to know that humanity has a long way to go to rise to the level of animals."

Oh Raine, how true...

You'd think that by now, someone would start catching on...(I realize that there are those who have )

....but wars, and fighting and bullying are the actions of barbarians, who still exist on this planet and just never, ever, seem to learn... *sigh*

posted May 15, 2004 07:46 AM              

hey, rainbow, it's interesting that you use the word barbarian, which surely describes these attitudes toward murder, whether it's a revenge killing for our own murder and inhumanity to iraqis or the callous indifference toward the murder of someone who obviously had "repented" (i find it absolutely chilling that so many texans would choose the route they did. let us hope that at least the one abstention would have added mercy to justice. no doubt it was this type of person who clambored for jesus' blood, too. i'm glad i don't live in texas, although i am sure there are some wonderful people who live there among such "barbarian" mindsets--at least they recognized that it was wrong to drag a man behind a pickup. again, animals are not bigoted and could never do such a thing)

but the word has roots that have two opposite connotations, which i find interesting. the word druids must have delighted in working with that one!

anyway, the words barber and barbara are related, and bear in mind that the horrors of the inquisition were brutally imposed to stamp out any trace of the tradition that retained the original remnants of the story of jesus, such as the albigensian "heresy"

just because the stronger guys "won" does not necessarily mean they have carried "the truth" all these years

any other version of "the truth" became subject to forms of torture that we cannot even conceive (talk about intolerance!)

but truth indeed has deep roots, and their tenacity is displayed in everything from medieval art to fairy tales to the songs of the troubadours and tarot cards. it had to seek these "occult" methods of telling the story, because, well, who would want to face an inquisitor?

and lest we get smugly removed from this brutality, picture the horrors of the officially sanctioned burning of women tied to a stake here in our own country. well, better not imprint THAT into our consciousness. it is already laden with too much testosterone!

(and guys, that is truly no reflection upon your masculinity. only if you allow it to burn out of control by drying out the balancing water that keeps it harmoniously blooming is it harmful and destructive. and some women can "burn" just as mercilessly from their masculine side, as evidenced in iraq. we all need to keep our masculine and feminine sides in balance. and as we do that individually, we will reach a critical mass that is destined to save the day)

as margaret starbird points out in her book "the woman with the alabaster jar" on p. 151:

quote:

---

these symbols (from fairy tales such as rapunzel with the tower and her long hair and mary magdalene drying the feet of jesus with her hair etc.) are also present in the strange stories surrounding saint barbara, a classic example of the way symbols and identities of saints and folktale characters are commingled. saint barbara, according to legends that the church now calls spurious, was a virgin martyr, the daughter of a pagan gentleman of the third century in syria.

she wanted to be a christian, and her father, horrified by that prospect, locked her up in a tower. the priest who came secretly to instruct her in the faith is said to have climbed her braids to enter her prison. wild as this story's claims appear to us, saint barbara was not discredited until the new calendar of the roman catholic church was published in 1969! for centuries she was depicted in christian iconography--a beautiful lady with fabulous long hair carrying her tower in her arms

but saint barbara's case has another interesting feature that i believe is relevant. her name means "foreigner" from the same root as "barbarian" (barber means "bearded"), which in classical times designated anyone who did not speak greek.

in some versions of the cinderella story, the little lost princess is called "barbarella" because she comes from a far country. she is an unknown and unrecognized "foreigner" in exile. in one version of the cinderella story, she says, "i am a princess from a faraway land. you do not know me." perhaps we do!

recalling that the word magdala in hebrew means "tower" (with connotations also of "stronghold" or "fortress"), i am inclined to believe that the foreigner with the marvelous hair and the tower in her arms in medieval iconography is really the magdalen. in the song of songs, the sister-bride says of herself, "i am a wall and my breasts are like towers: (cant. 8:10) she is referring to herself as a "walled city," that is, sion. the dark bride--and the tower and glorious long hair that are her symbols--preceded the stories that were made up about saint barbara to explain them. she is surely the sister-bride of canticles and the magdal-eder of micah--mary, the exiled daughter of sion.

this intuitive leap is confirmed by a curious practice found in celebration of st. barbara's day in central europe. on her feast day, the fourth of december, when there is snow on the ground and the trees are bare of leaves, the dwellers of a mountain village in silesia go out to gather barren boughs and bring them into their homes, where they put them in water. here the branches burst into bloom in honor of the lady of the tower! this seems to me to be a folk remembrance of the miraculous flowering of the staff of jesse, the barren branch of the kings of judah, through the motherhood of the magdal-eder. she is not the fairy-tale bride rapunzel, nor is she saint barbara. she is mary magdalen, the foreign princess from across the sea whose distinguishing feature in every medieval painting is the glorious hair that she once used to wipe her tears from the feet of christ.

as if we needed additional confirmation of this confusion of saint barbara with the magdalen, it is enough to note that she is the patron saint of fortifications. the list of professionals who call saint barbara their patron includes architects, stonemasons, and military engineers and artillerymen who build and defend fortifications, the "walled cities" and castles of medieval history. (remember the chivalric order of warrior-builders--the templars?) to this day, the colors of the united states army corps of engineers are red and white, their insignia is the castle with two towers, and the artillery ball is held to celebrate saint barbara's feast day, the fourth of december, at united states military bases around the globe.

i do not here intend to recount all our childhood fairy tales. my purpose is only to show the prevalence of the theme of the wounded, lost, or imprisoned feminine counterpart of the handsome prince. the earliest known versions of the cinderella story in europe date from about the ninth century. this was the very period when the merovingian kings had been deposed and supplanted, their heritage usurped and obliterated by the carolingian heirs of pepin in alleged collusion with the vatican. perhaps the "stepmother" who tried so often to destroy the little princess deserved her evil reputation.

---

now i know why as a little girl those fairy tales from "long ago and far away" beckoned to me with such intense fascination! i was trapped in the prison of orthodoxy and they spoke of freedom and restoration of the true feminine counterpart of history. once it is restored, we can get on with the business of living happily ever after--a result of the desert blossoming as the rose when the prince finds his lost bride. that bride is represented today as the feminine element of water, borne by the aquarian water bearer in this new age

and as our book reports in school used to say, "if you want to know the rest of the story, read the book"

posted May 15, 2004 11:28 AM              

The American Indians (of which I am one), are aware of the POWER of the feminine...

May we regain our rightful recognition in other arenas, as well!

posted May 15, 2004 12:07 PM              

I read the newspaper today and the editor for the Daily Mirror(cant remember his name)in Britain was ousted because his ran pictures of the abused Iraqis on the front page which were proved to be false.