posted June 17, 2005 11:36 PM            

I also said chlorine wasn't the only option for drinking water treatment...and it wasn't. Ozone and hydrogen peroxide are common water treatment products which were NOT on the list of embargoed materials.

At every point, it was Saddam who made the decisions and the responsibility for whatever happened to Iraqi citizens falls on his doorstep, not the US. First for invading Kuwait, second for not living up to the terms of the ceasefire resolution 687, third for refusing the oil for food program for more than 5 years and fourth for taking the money from the sale of oil and pocketing it without regard to what was needed by his citizens including the maintenance and upkeep of the critical infrastructure of Iraq.

At every point, Saddam had choices. The choices he made directly affected his own citizens and worked to their detriment. It's also true Saddam could have ended sanctions at any time...by living up to the terms of the ceasefire resolution 687. He chose not to.

Your argument of American repression of Iraqi citizens is feeble and specious but it certainly places you in the far left spectrum of political thought because that's their argument too.

posted June 18, 2005 02:51 AM            

You were trying to make the point that this was a humanitarian war based on humanitarian need in Iraq, and I've been illustrating how the U.S. has, in essence, been thwarting the humanitarian effort through the Oil for Food program. Regardless of what lawmakers might have wanted, the policy (our policy) didn't, at that time, reflect any overwhelming humanitarian urge.

You have been asserting that the U.S. was not in any way responsible for harm to Iraqis, and I've shown you that the U.S.'s decisions have contributed not only to harm, but to the death of Iraqis. Those decisions were made based on the character of Saddam, but you can't say that this was a big humanitarian effort on our part when we stood on the sidelines derailing humanitarian aid based on our own fears.

Your comments on my argument are as unfounded as ever.

Your comment about me being on the far left...if it does something for you to keep saying that, go ahead (you're not convincing anyone but yourself).

Only you could try to turn my denouncement of Saddam into an endorsement. That's just silly.

-----------------------------

posted June 18, 2005 10:41 AM              

i never even remotely suggested the claim that the u.s. was entirely responsible for everything that went on in the oil for food program.....i was only addressing 2 claims made by jwhop....that the u.s. had no responsibility in overseeing the OFF program and that the joint resolution actually said that wmd were the smallest reason for authorizing military force against iraq

LOL

posted July 24, 2005 11:25 AM            

All your bobbing, ducking and weaving in your attempt to distance yourself from the radical leftists and paint yourself as an objective patriotic American who is only trying to make the United States "better" is not going to fly in the face of the reality of statements you've already made...about the United States and about the terrorists killing innocent Iraqi civilians, deliberately. They are really ballsy for killing those whom they don't even know..now aren't they Acoustic?

Judging from what you've said, it would seem you actually admire terrorists...assigning them to be freedom fighters, fighting for their own country. Absolute crap!

While assigning lofty motives to terrorist murderers, you assign dark motives to the United States, so up yours.

posted July 24, 2005 11:06 PM              

Im sorry but,,,, how do you get all of that from what Acoustic has had to say ?

posted July 24, 2005 11:40 PM            

So Magus, what paranoid militia group do you belong to? Or do you plan to overthrow the US government all by yourself? Of course, you know or at least you now know that conspiring to or attempting to overthrow the US government by force is a federal crime. Not too concerned here Magus. Something you probably haven't considered but more than likely, your little group has been penetrated and half your members are either undercover FBI, BATF and Homeland Security agents, the half who know how to shoot I wouldn't do much thinking out loud if I were you.

posted July 25, 2005 01:12 AM            

You know I've spent all day revelling in the fact that I was no longer a leftist to you. When you stated that leftists wouldn't rebuild Iraq, while I had just admonished the US to rebuild it with a flourish it occurred to me your change of heart on me.

Consistency gets tough when your perspective is misguided, eh Jwhop?

posted July 25, 2005 01:19 PM              

I wish I had an organisation, dont know enough other americans patriotic enough to lay that much on hte line. And Im already well aware that big brother is always watching. I dont need you to let me know Im in the 4th ryke, with a total gestapo always listeing and encouraging americans to rat each other out.

Ive been reading Acoustics postings budy, there alot easyer and entertaining to read then your longer more dragged out threads. He seems to waist less of my time on my computer screen to get his points acrost.

posted July 25, 2005 01:33 PM              

maybe then if they bague me for help from the hell you have created for their generation,,, I will consider helping them over throw the tyrany and supresion of a government that was supposed to be rulled by the peaple. If Creation him self comes to me and orders me to help Ill think about assisting these Lambs to the slaughter fix the grime this generation is constructing for their futer.

Other wise,, your children are on their own.

Ive been told in many soul regrsion and history readings of different sorts that I have been helping freedom fighters obtain their independance since Britians darkest ages. Only to have to come back in the next life to fix another mess made again, because peaple are always forgeting that freedom isnt asked for, its taken. This life is my turn and time to lett others pick up the pieces.

posted July 25, 2005 07:03 PM            

Who knows Magus, by tomorrow you may have entirely forgotten that you're a self-styled one of a kind, anti-American insurgent and be able to lead a more or less normal life. You might even be able to concentrate long enough to write down all the rights you say you've lost and figure out where those rights were guaranteed to you.

It seems you've entirely forgotten you're leaving this blighted land...no doubt caused by your short attention span. There Magus, I've reminded you of what you'd forgotten, so you can get on with your plans to leave.

I don't want you to have a single care about leaving the rest of us in the tentacles of our devouring government or have any regrets that you won't be leading us in a revolution. We'll all just have to do the best we can without you...burrrp!

posted July 25, 2005 09:22 PM              

Even if I had the money, and granted citisinship to live in Deutchland tommorow, I would still have allot of freinds and fammly stuck back here that I would prefer to see and hear of living in a land of liberty. Without constant supresion, and extortion.

And untill Im acutaly living over there and not here, Im stuck having to pay atention to whats goin on around me, and to my fellow countrymen and women.

hahahha, a Leo you are rite ? Wow, I could have almost typed your entire last post out for you word per word. I probably would have, except I was giving you a little more credit to not be this predicatable of a Lion.

posted July 25, 2005 11:21 PM            

Along comes Magus making wild accusations about US government suppression and extortion directed against US citizens and loss of liberty. All this with not one word to back it up...all talk.

posted July 26, 2005 12:29 AM            

quote:

---

Some people make wild accusations...like you. Accusations they can't back up...like you.

---

Prove it.

posted July 26, 2005 01:16 AM            

As for proving it Acoustic, you do that every time you light off your keyboard with your radical leftist crap.

Virtually everything you've said about Iraq and the US is straight communist dogma, communists you say are idealistic. As though killing at least 100,000,000 people is in any way idealistic.

Terrorists are freedom fighters
Terrorists are ballsy for killing innocent civilians...including women and children
Terrorists should not be killed
Communists are idealistic.

posted July 26, 2005 02:29 AM            

So that's it. One statement...and it's not even an accusation, so once again you fall short in argument, and long on meaningless banter.

Oh, and that guy you claimed as a communist in the other thread, whom I quoted, is a reverend and an anti-nuke activist. No where in any of the material I read did it try to link him to socialism or communism. He's just another American you choose to demonize. You seem to just be stepping farther and farther away from anything to do with morality.

posted July 26, 2005 04:18 PM              

Thats why I went out of my way to share with everyone here my latest reason for seeing extortion in NY state legislation alone.

Are you realy that headstrong without any wisdome ? Its not that I and others here arent backing up , or willing to back up whaqt we say, or boldly state- its that when we do, you dont want to hear it if you dont agree with it.

Then once you decide you dont like the evidence, or argument stated you procede to start labeling us [ie- leftist, radical leftist, insurgents, and other]... After that you procede to find little sentinces here and there to pick apart, and debate us on, and of course only seeing what you want to see in our posts as you waist your time and life over analyzing the life out of these threads.

What is it exactly your trying to do here in Global Unity anyway ? Are you trying to build a loyal millitia or pollitical gathering for your own cause or something ? ITs starting to seem to me like thats what your up to. Why should you care so much if we have different views then yours ? Are you loosing sleep at night just becasue there are peaple out there that dont see america like you do ?

Heres a lesson I learned around 14, 15- state opinions or even truths sure,,, then if peaple dont want to see it your way,, move on and enjoy your own life to the best of your abilities. Damn, if I thought and ticked like you do, with my views on these subjects- I would have had an ulser now, especialy considering my views are the very minority in this nation.

And onhe last time Ill remind ya- as far as my poor spelling goes-

posted July 26, 2005 07:48 PM            

quote:

---

Virtually everything you've said about Iraq and the US is straight communist dogma, communists you say are idealistic. As though killing at least 100,000,000 people is in any way idealistic.
Terrorists are freedom fighters
Terrorists are ballsy for killing innocent civilians...including women and children
Terrorists should not be killed
Communists are idealistic.

---

quote:

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The single correct statement in your whole post that I did actually say is that it is ballsy to kill. It is. Doesn't matter innocent or not innocent. It requires courage to kill other people. Maybe, you, as a person who identifies with violence above morality, see things differently.So that's it. One statement...Acoustic

---

Terrorists are ballsy for killing innocent civilians...including women and children

quote:

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You've got to be pretty freaking ballsy to kill people who have nothing to do with you.
..Acoustic

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Terrorists should not be killed

quote:

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The terrorists will be killed or captured, tried by a military tribunal and executed if found guilty. They are going away, one way or the other and this in spite of leftist drivel we should try to see their side of the issue. People who make war on civilians, people who believe they have a right to kill anyone who does not accept Allah as god..i.e., infidels can only be dealt with in one way and that way is a bullet. Those captured inside of Iraq will more than likely be tried and executed by the Iraqis..jwhop

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quote:

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This is exactly what I was talking about in the last post. If you keep framing it as only kill kill kill, it's never going to get better, and the terrorists won't go away....Acoustic

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quote:

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So you're really standing by that, huh? You want the terrorisism to continue on for the next generations? You don't ever want America to concern itself with it's public image so long as it's killing foreigners? Violence perpetuates violence. This is why inner city gangs don't go away. Someone's always killing someone else creating new enemies...Acoustic

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Communists are idealistic.

quote:

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An idealist is an idealist. A communist is an idealist...Acoustic

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quote:

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It is an ideal for any who would believe in it. Not only so, communism by theory in no way endorses violence or human restriction. ..Acoustic

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quote:

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The answer, of course, is that I'm not a radical in the slightest. You're the only person to think otherwise....Acoustic

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quote:

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You consider me a leftist, and I never lie.
..Acoustic

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quote:

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so that the people whom America repressed may again be healthy and stop dying at the hands of the sanctions we imposed through the United Nations...Acoustic

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quote:

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Also, I disagree with the notion that a war torn nation with ongoing terrorism is, "free." The fact is that the insurgency is as bad today as it has ever been.
...Acoustic

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quote:

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Oh, and I'm not above suspecting this administration of bringing about this investigation in order to:- Distance themselves from the UN
- Discredit the UN
- Remove US culpability from the minds of would be terrorists..Acoustic

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quote:

---

This goes back to what I said earlier. It's guilt by association. It's guilt by measure of the influence we wield. Why, with all the influence we have, did we not ask to inspect the Oil for Food program earlier if we are so concerned for the welfare of Iraqi citizens?
..Acoustic

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quote:

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Are we all, US citizens, then not guilty of repression of Iraqi citizens?jwhop

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quote:

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In a way yes. I didn't know what was being done by our government, and the effect it had on the lives and safety of Iraqis. Perhaps if the conservatives would have held a march or a telethon or made news with their outpouring of concern for Iraqis I could have been better informed....Acoustic

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quote:

---

Jwhop's previous arguments for the humanitarian aspect all talked about an Iraq after Saddam was deposed. Not a word of what he provided spoke of humanitarian aid while Saddam was in power, or why Iraqi citizens would need humanitarian assistance while the Oil for Food program existed....Acoustic

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quote:

---

Oh, also reitterate if you would the humanitarian concern prior to removing Saddam, and why that concern was never levied [by Americans] on the US's involvement in the Oil for Food program....Acoustic

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quote:

---

You were trying to make the point that this was a humanitarian war based on humanitarian need in Iraq, and I've been illustrating how the U.S. has, in essence, been thwarting the humanitarian effort through the Oil for Food program. Regardless of what lawmakers might have wanted, the policy (our policy) didn't, at that time, reflect any overwhelming humanitarian urge....Acoustic

---

quote:

---

Also, when are you going to prove to me the Republican agenda for the safety of Iraqis from the 1990's? You're not, because no proof exists....Acoustic

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quote:

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You consider me a leftist, and I never lie.
..Acoustic

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quote:

---

So Saddam wasn't helping the people, and the U.S. was only marginally trying to help the people (and by blocking humanitarian supplies were indeed adding to the suffering of the people). This is the consistent history....Acoustic

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quote:

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You are always saying that this war is 12 years in the making, right? And what, pray tell, did conservative leadership have to say about improving the lives of Iraqis?...Acoustic

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quote:

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Conservative concern, even in 1998, was in reference to WMD not the Iraqi people. You would think that this higly intelligent bunch would have at least touched on the subject of the welfare of the Iraqi people, but they didn't. The desired removal of Saddam is strictly presented as that as a threat to US interests...Acoustic

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quote:

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12 years, and where during that 12 years was the conservative push to depose Saddam? Yeah, I don't remember it either.
..Acoustic

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quote:

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Ummm...the truth is that the issue of Iraqi freedom for its citizens was on no political party's agenda prior to Sept 11.
..Acoustic

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quote:

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Even your opinion of what my position is verifiably wrong. It's written throughout this thread....Acoustic

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quote:

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You consider me a leftist, and I never lie.
..Acoustic

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Right!

posted July 26, 2005 09:37 PM            

quote:

---

Even if I had the money, and granted citisinship to live in Deutchland tommorow, I would still have allot of freinds and fammly stuck back here that I would prefer to see and hear of living in a land of liberty. Without constant supresion, and extortion.

---

I assume you are going to getaroundtuit at some point eh Magus?

posted July 26, 2005 10:05 PM            

Let's see how many people you've convinced.