posted December 10, 2006 06:54 PM              

There are many countries in this world where Jewish people can and do reside, besides Israel.

The creation of the state of Israel and the disregard of Palestinian life in that area is a major reason the Arab countries have this resentment...and possibly why Jewish people in other Arab countries felt a need to move.

posted December 10, 2006 08:06 PM            

Why not DayDreamer? You seem so bend on convincing everyone of yours...the issue isnt where they can or cannot reside. There are many countries where Arabs still reside so why shouldnt the Palestinian people go to say Libiya that is now free of their Jewish population and live it up. Libiya kicked them out, Israel invited them in. End of story...how is it any of our problems that same Libiya doesnt want to invite Palestinians, or say Saudi Arabia...or Perhaps Iran which seems to be so loud on the issue...

If the Arab countries care so much for the poor Palestinian people why dont they take them themselves? Oh wait...they dont want to... What persecution? The persecution reacher its peak after the creation of Israel...which proves how in everyone's eyes Zionism and Judaism is the same...im not suprised see my "racism" thread...Im not here to sell anything. I dont care what you or anyone else for that matter thinks of my opinions and if they are BS to you, goodie lets have a party because some of the crud stated here I wouldnt take for free. Now have a nice day, ciao.

posted December 10, 2006 08:16 PM              

I LOve Your Spirit!

posted December 10, 2006 08:24 PM              

BS that the Jews had to go to Israel because they were kicked out of Arab land. The difference lies in that they chose to leave the Arab countries on their own will, whereas the Palestinians do not want to leave and will continue to fight till they will be afforded proper treatment and till the settlers stop stealing their homes and till Zionists and Evangicals stop sponsoring it.

This doesnt have to do with taking other people into their countries...Most Palestinians live in other Arab countries anyways. This has to do with their right to stay where they lived before the creation of Israel. If Jews wanted to stay in the Arab countries and were persecuted there as the biased pro-Israel website posted in this thread says then they should have toughed it out like the Palestinians are doing now.

posted December 10, 2006 10:10 PM            

quote:

---

Dulce Luna i didnt say there was no Palestine as in the place. I said there was no Palestine as a nation state with defined borders and agreed upon sovereignty and self sufficiency which is what the Palestinian people want. As such thing never existed. I.e. Never was a country called palestine.

---

Ok, I've jumped back in a little late(courtesy of an unfocused gemini venus + aries mars ).

But anyways BUD, if you use that type of reasoning then we can also assume that there was no such nation as Israel....but there was. Palestine existed the same way that Ancient Israel did after the expulsion of the Jews. A nation is not the same thing as a country.

quote:

---

DL, thanks for the admission Palestine is the homeland of the Jewish people and that they were "expelled", without compensation, from their homeland.
It follows naturally then that they have "prior rights" to their own land

---

Now, I never said that the Jews should be expelled right now, but the decision to send the Jews back there based on the Bible by the British is the stupidest thing done in History IMO. I think it was Xodian in another thread who said the decision should've been secular and I completely agree. It is definitely a big reason why there is so much tension in the Middle East and this is because when the British declared the state of Israel based on Judaeo-Christian claims it was as good as declaring that "we are right and Islam is wrong".

And again, how could you expel people living there at the time (the Palestinians) in favor of people who had not been there for over a thousand years?? Utterly ridiculous. Most of these Jews were Europeans living in Europe for Centuries. The only reason the British made this state was out of Anti-Semitism and not out of true concern. Nobody in Europe wanted the Jews and did not know what to do with them. Other than that there would have been no logical reason as to why the Jews could not continue to reside in Europe. And its only right that they (British) should help them out now because the hasty decision they made. End of story.

It would be the same thing as The Americans going to Africa and expelling people who had lived in the land for thousands of years in favor of a few descendants of African Slaves (African-Americans). No one would dare do that now, would they?

posted December 10, 2006 10:16 PM            

Sure they chose to leave on their own free will...so did the Palestinians. The moment the Jews moved in they packed, up, panicked and left and now they suddenly want it all back. If they were so displaced why werent they rebelling against British authority? Oh because Britian would shoot them all and they wouldnt be able to say anything. Thats why. Evangelicals? Wow now you begin to show your racist nature...thats sweet...keep it up, that goes along in todays world.

If they live in other Arab countries, good for them why are they entering someone else's sovereign state and blowing themselves up? Ah you mean they should have stayed in the Arab lands and blew themselves up like savages? Nahhh unlike the Palestinians they value their and other's lives not to mention their own children. They wouldnt want to send their little kid who they cannot feed to blow himself up. Thats inhumane and ungodly.

Europe did take a peace of land belonging to it and gave it to the Jews. That land is called Israel. No on expelled them, they panicked and left.

Ahhh delusions are always helpful DayDreamer when you choose to live like an ostrich with your head in the ground. Hearing no evil and seeing no evil does also help, though Im not sure how applicable "saying no evil" is. I find it utterly ironic that the b**** who sparked my "racism" thread proceeded to insult me for a while to my bf and then say "nothing personal", i guess it wasnt personal when i called her a b**** either. Its also very mature of you to attack me when you couldnt prove me wrong, thank you for admiting im winning. Now have a great day and peace to you darling.

posted December 10, 2006 10:28 PM            

quote:

---

No on expelled them, they panicked and left.

---

Is this what Britian and America tells everyone? Seriously, why would they just pack up and leave?

*EDITED TO ADD*

quote:

---

Jwhop - from your post off of the Israel Science and Technology Directory, it looks like the creation of the state of Israel and exodus of the Palestinian people was the worst thing for Jewish people living in Arab land.

---

posted December 10, 2006 10:29 PM              

funny, I always thought the Land, MOther
Earth, was freely Ours to enjoy, and cultivate..

When Man put a value On plots of Earth,
He turned his back on God...

this land is your land
this land is my land...

Ours. ...

posted December 10, 2006 10:52 PM              

And excellent point:

quote:

---

It would be the same thing as The Americans going to Africa and expelling people who had lived in the land for thousands of years in favor of a few descendants of African Slaves (African-Americans). No one would dare do that now, would they?

---

BornUD

Sorry hun, the one showing their true racist nature is you

quote:

---

If they live in other Arab countries, good for them why are they entering someone else's sovereign state and blowing themselves up? Ah you mean they should have stayed in the Arab lands and blew themselves up like savages? Nahhh unlike the Palestinians they value their and other's lives not to mention their own children. They wouldnt want to send their little kid who they cannot feed to blow himself up. Thats inhumane and ungodly.

---

Are you suggesting resisting Palestinians still in the area are savages?

quote:

---

Evangelicals? Wow now you begin to show your racist nature...thats sweet...keep it up, that goes along in todays world.

---

Yep Evangelicals follow a purely racist dogma when it comes to Israel.

quote:

---

Europe did take a peace of land belonging to it and gave it to the Jews. That land is called Israel. No on expelled them, they panicked and left.

---

Belonging to Europe, eh?

quote:

---

Ahhh delusions are always helpful DayDreamer when you choose to live like an ostrich with your head in the ground. Hearing no evil and seeing no evil does also help, though Im not sure how applicable "saying no evil" is. I find it utterly ironic that the b**** who sparked my "racism" thread proceeded to insult me for a while to my bf and then say "nothing personal", i guess it wasnt personal when i called her a b**** either. Its also very mature of you to attack me when you couldnt prove me wrong, thank you for admiting im winning. Now have a great day and peace to you darling.

---

posted December 10, 2006 11:49 PM            

Those who did stay received full citizenship in the nation of Israel just as they were promised.

Further, Arabs were not driven off the land. They were advised to leave by Arab leaders and also told they could return after the combined armies of 7 Arab nations destroyed the new state of Israel and slaughtered the Jews. In fact, Arabs living in the area expected to return and occupy the homes and land of the dead Jews.

What is true is that Jews were expelled from Arab nations...more than 800,000. Their property, land, bank accounts and everything they had in the world was taken from them. No compensation was ever paid.

In contrast, Israel did pay compensation on some claims filed by Arabs who had left.

Those are facts and you can argue yourself blue in the face but the facts will not change.

I'm fed up listening to propaganda about the Palestinian problem. There is a Palestinian problem because the surrounding Arab states and the UN have made the problem. Arabs..so called Palestinians are being used a pawns by those who want to use them as a propaganda tool. Their intent was always and remains today, the destruction of the state of Israel and the slaughter of the Jews.

They aren't going to get that done and if that pi$ses them off and all here, tough shiiit. I would say Israel's neighbors are lucky to be alive. They wouldn't be if I were in charge of Israel. I'm not fool enough to leave an enemy at my back who broadcasts their racist message of hate daily that they intend to kill me. Nor would I ever sign an agreement or treaty with them. Israel has done that before and found the agreements weren't worth the paper they were printed on. The latest example was the one whereby Israel was to vacate Lebanon and Lebanon was to disarm all the militias. Now we see that wasn't done. Neither were the two captured Israeli soldiers returned as the agreement specified.

posted December 11, 2006 12:03 AM              

quote:

---

I strongly agree with what you say. I am also pro sharing the land among Palestinians and Israelis equally. What Im anti is having blame put completely on one side like DayDreamer just did ever so kindly. I am also against people saying that kicking someone out is okay when its the enemy but a huge humanitarian problem when its your people...be consistent is all I ask...

---

Well I disagree with how Israel was created in the first place. It's there so now the best thing to do would be for the Israelis and Palestinians to share the land. But is that really what's happening? Is that really what the ones running the nations want?

Jwhop

quote:

---

The Arabs living within the new state of Israel were not expelled. In fact they were almost begged to stay

---

where do you get your propaganda from? facts (history, actions) speak louder than words...how do you beg them to stay after you demolish there homes?

Show me the unbiased source that says Jews were forcebly expelled from Arab nations. And no not daniel pipes or frontpage mag.

quote:

---

One day there is going to be another attack on Israel and there will be war between Israel and it's Arab neighbors. Don't look for Israel to be restrained by the United States or anyone else and don't look for Israel to return land they capture in that war. When that happens, I'll be cheering them on.

---

posted December 11, 2006 12:16 AM              

quote:

---

That's pretty big talk about a group of nations who with their combined armies couldn't defeat 6 million Israelis...far less than 6 million then.

---

definitely not impossible to gain nuclear weapons in this day and age...the reality is one is more than enough. BTW Im not the one talking big and making threats...you are!

quote:

---

I posted the sources of what I said. If you have lost the power of intellect to read and comprehend what Arab leaders themselves had to say about how Arabs came to leave, then that's your problem

---

posted December 11, 2006 12:32 AM              

quote:

---

The truth is the truth no matter who happens to say or print it.

You should try some instead of the pro terrorist propaganda you constantly spout.

---

posted December 11, 2006 01:14 AM            

Every sorce is biased...you posted a number of articles from Al-Jazeera thats a biased source...VERY biased.

Yea they can get nuclear weapons...and then they can get invaded... Seriously DayDreamer your sources are biased because they are obviously anti-zionist. The burden of proof lies on the accuser, so you prove Jwhop wrong. He shouldnt have to prove anything he already gave his statement.

quote:

---

well at least more reliable and widely used than the places you get your news from

---

Thats a little arogant dont you think?

quote:

---

you think it's communist, socialist or terrorist propaganda...just because it doesnt go along with your beliefs or ideas!?!

---

You say that to him and then you say

quote:

---

where do you get your propaganda from?

---

posted December 11, 2006 06:47 AM            

quote:

---

The Arabs living within the new state of Israel were not expelled. In fact they were almost begged to stay.
Those who did stay received full citizenship in the nation of Israel just as they were promised.

---

Colonialism at its worst. The new state of Israel?? What about the Old one of Palestine?

posted December 11, 2006 09:44 AM            

quote:

---

Colonialism at its worst. The new state of Israel?? What about the Old one of Palestine?

---

Gooood....how many times must i say! THERE WAS NEVER A STATE CALLED PALESTINE...please open a dictionary or any IR textbook and see definition of state!

posted December 11, 2006 11:30 AM              

quote:

---

Depending on the circumstances perhaps...but say you are a poor farmer in a third world nation the leader of which has been around for over 15 years and you havnt elected him. Say you are uneducated and have no time or resources to do your research. Who would you listen to? The government thanks to which you are poor or the clerics who are supposed to be the devine representatives who are meant to bring you on the right path to an afterlife significantly better than where you are now...

As for Pakistan, correct me if im wrong, but very few people actually like Musharraf

---

Well assuming that the poor lack the ability to withstand pressure from religious clerics is as much of an assumption as assuming that they hate the government to begin with--or that they are more religious than the elite. Sometimes it is true, sometimes it is not. Many of the poor in Arab countries are Bedouins or farmers, and these people can be of a variety of religious denominations. Most of them are not so bothered over religion and politics as livelihood. In Pakistan for instance much of the poor rural class follows their local 'vadera'--a landlord who sets the 'rules' and provides each family with enough to make ends meet. These vaderas can be benevolent and representative, or corrupt and dictatorial (they may advocate gang rape in some cases!).

I would say this class of people goes wherever they will be housed/sheltered. In the case of Palestinians it is true that the poorer classes were tended to by Hamas. Hamas was the only political party providing widows with homes, children with educations. So they became 'good' in the eyes of the poorer classes despite their political agenda (which I dont personally agree with myself).

But on the other hand, in Saudi, religion is a game of the rich political elite, who change and morph it at their whim (modern day wahabism), whereas the poor bedouins know little to nothing about the current cleric rulings and really don't care. Same goes with Egypt.

And yes I will agree with you that many many Pakis do not like Musharraf myself included. Since when did a military dictator become a good form of government? Shame on him for usurping power then assuming two roles (military general and President, which is illegal in Pak) and then using his power to his own benefit instead of to the benefit of his people at large. Shame on him, I absolutely loathe him. Despite their own respective corruptions, Benazir was much better than he is, and even Mr corruption Nawaz sharif is better than Musharraf.

quote:

---

I never said that...i only said there was no such nation as Palestine and the Jews were expeled from that land by the ROmans. I did not claim its inherently Jewish at all...

---

That is what my point was (that it is not inherently Jewish). Agreed.

I think the expulsion of the Jews from Arab countries was a sad affair but in my mind the reason is not 100% clear. Many Jews left in order to gain prosperity in Israel which their host Arab nations did not enjoy; we must admit Israel provides several financial benefits to Jewish settlers such as cheapo or sometimes free land and utilities, versus the rising costs and inflation in the arab world. On the other hand of course it would not be pleasant nor a piece of cake to live in a country that is waging a war against Israel, which most Jews consider their 'motherland' (the land of Jerusalem), and I have no doubt that there was probably resentment. I dont know if the resentment would take the form of political expulsion or just social pressure.

The Arab-Israeli wars are just that though--Arabs vs Israelis, not Muslims vs. Jews. That is my main concern here, that this must be differentiated and accepted. When people (not necessarily u BUD but people in general) start thinking its Muslims vs Jews one religion becomes evil and other elevated in their minds. The Arab Christians are mainly on the Pali side and when we talk about the Palestinians that fled and wanted their land back, these are mainly the Arab Christians who almost VACATED the region becoz they fled in such HUGE numbers. The Muslims also left but in much much smaller numbers. It is simply inaccurate to say that the Muslims fled then wanted their land back.

posted December 11, 2006 11:33 AM              

quote:

---

You say that to him and then you say

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
where do you get your propaganda from?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to Jwhop again....sooo hes spouting propoganda because it doesnt fit with your beliefs but your honest truth cant be denied?
Real nice...

---

this is NOT a defense of DD or an attack on JW but if you have read through the other pages on this form BUD sadly its true that jw calls everyone who he disagrees with either a socialist a communist or a terrorist sympathizer even if we are simply supporting the democrats or clinton and not even talking about arab natios or the middle east lol. I dont think ive had the 'privelege' of being called a terrorist sympathizer or socialist yet although it may have happened and I have just forgotten. But DDs comment refers to some historical stuff thats happened on the board in the past its definitely not a baseless accusation. I think even JW would agree that people who dont agree with him are either 1) socialists 2) communists or 3) terrorist sympathizers. lol. wait till you disagree with him on something...you'll get it too Thats when you know you are now a part of the LL GU forum. haha

posted December 11, 2006 11:59 AM            

quote:

---

Gooood....how many times must i say! THERE WAS NEVER A STATE CALLED PALESTINE...please open a dictionary or any IR textbook and see definition of state!

---

posted December 11, 2006 12:12 PM            

Now SG..or anyone else, if you disagree with that statement, feel free to find authoritative sources and I don't mean Hamas, Hezbollah or other terrorist groups, to refute it.

I've already posted authoritative sources for the statement and those authoritative sources include Arab leaders themselves and/or those who were alive at the time..1948 and/or were part of the group of Arabs who left at the insistence of national leaders of the nations which attacked Israel in 1948.

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."

- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."

- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

"The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies."

- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952

Now SG and others, can we have an end to the fictional lying propaganda that Israel drove Arabs off their land and EXPELLED them from the nation of Israel?

It's becoming increasingly impossible to take much of what some of you are saying at face value.

"The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down."

- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951

"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."

- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

posted December 11, 2006 12:58 PM            

Sorry, but it seems that you are caught up in the complexity that makes up LindaLand. If one questions the violent "extremists" that make up the fringe of the religion called Islam- we are called racists. If someone stands up for Israel, we are called Zionists.

IF someone of Jewish decent comes to the site to stand up for what they know if fact AND has been supported by historical facts, you will see those of an ethnic backround that is more in line with the Muslim religion coming out and attacking you.

If I stand back and read objectively I notice that while you are trying to understand their position, you are basically being berated for your Jewish heritage.

Jwhop supplied TONS of facts and historical data that backs up the points you have made. Has anyone that came out to berate you or question you actually read it? Nah, because like the pyscho wingnut that leads Iran, many a turning against the fact that specific atrocities had been committed against the Jewish people.

While I do find fault with both groups fighting for land and killing each other, I think that both sides need to bear an open mind as to what got you all there and why. Simply blaming someone else is pointless.

TINK said it all - no one is going to win. We can't change anyone's mind because it is born so deep inside.

In my opinion, I see a small country like Israel fighting against a large conglomeration of Arabs that would like nothing more than to blast the Jewish people off the planet.

How many times do we have to see Muslim clerics or people like the wingnut in Iran making those sickening comments about the Holocaust and ousting Jewish people from various countries.

I wonder how those of Muslim decent would feel here if our President said the world would be better off without Muslims or that we needed to expel those that follow Islam from the US?