posted December 06, 2006 10:35 PM            

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"We established Israel as a Jewish country," he said. "I want to provide an Israel that is a Jewish, Zionist country. It's about what kind of country we want to see in the future. Either it will be an [ethnically mixed] country like any other, or it will continue as a Jewish country."

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Wow, is that racist or what?

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Minorities are the biggest problem in the world."

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And since his little diatribe is aimed primarily at Arabs, that makes him...

an Antisemite?

Amazing. Talk about a terrorist state!

posted December 06, 2006 11:47 PM            

...
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posted December 07, 2006 12:50 PM              

Its on the record and you could search for it. I remember hearing it being quoted by a Jewish Rabbi.

posted December 07, 2006 01:45 PM            

"Introduction
Depicting Jews – and sometimes also Zionists – as "the descendants of apes and pigs" is extremely widespread today in public discourse in the Arab and Islamic worlds.

"For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."[1]

Now Johnny, it seems to me that fairness demands you address this...if for no other reason than your haste to assign racism to the quote you posted. You might also want to address the hate, racism, fanaticism and murderous intent shown in the other quotes from Muslim clerics found here:
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sr&ID=SR01102

You might also wish to delve into the concept of returning land won in wars....after Israel was attacked by the combined armies of neighboring Arab nations on several occasions when they were not at war with any of them. Nor had any of Israel's neighbors openly declared war on Israel.

At one point, Israeli forces were only 20 miles from Damascus after utterly destroying the Syrian tank brigades and most of the Syrian air force. Further, Israel had captured a large chunk of the Sinai.

posted December 07, 2006 03:52 PM              

Neither is the assumption of the apes and pigs a literal one (like most of the stories in the Quran, Tora and Bible, it is figurative and allegorical)--they were treated in such a manner by nations after that point in time, because of their behavior, according to the Quran (just as Cain would be treated after he killed Abel for instance).

And its funny that the Muslim clerics would say that because Arabs and Jews are both descendants of the same family tree--we're the nasty brown cousins some might say

At least those clerics are considered radical by most Muslims. At least those clerics are not supported by their own state, let alone AMERICA, the superpower of the world. At least their ignorance is not written into constitutions, preached as a national mentality, considered a prerogative to launch attacks on masses of civilians. And those clerics will never say that to rape a Jewish woman means she deserves it.

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You might also wish to delve into the concept of returning land won in wars....after Israel was attacked by the combined armies of neighboring Arab nations on several occasions when they were not at war with any of them. Nor had any of Israel's neighbors openly declared war on Israel.

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Um yes they did declare war.

And Israel was informed by Jordanian authorities who backstabbed Syria and Egypt, after they had begun the offensive.

Israel did capture a large chunk of the Sinai, so you are admitting that Israel was an aggressor and took land from the Arabs. thank you.

The Arabs nations did not seize land from Israel. It is in fact the opposite. East Jerusalem belonged to Jordan, that is the fact. And the rest of it was Palestine, recognized by several nations but never receiving a UN charter. Seeing your distaste for the UN in general Im not sure why you would honor their charter for Israel and not one for Palestine anyway

Doesn't it matter more who was living there when forced out of their homes? It would be more accurate to say Israel waged wars in order to maintain its control over occupied lands, rather than to say that it had done so in order to 'defend' itself. Please--we've gone over this so many times. So what if the Arabs want Israel gone? Does it matter, if Israel has the most powerful weaponry in the Middle East, and is backed by the US military and economy? I think not...

posted December 07, 2006 09:00 PM            

If im corrected about this Ayatollah of Iran was a cleric and a leader...and the word of the grand mufti of Jerusalem (who during WW2 - this is before the founding of Israel) was rather closely allied with Adolf Hitler personally (and he just happens to be Yasir Arafat's uncle) or the grand mufti of Al Azhar in Egypt carries farther to the people then the words of any politicians.

Religious people listen to clerics not leaders...so the fact that they are elected or not doesnt really matter...while elected leaders may represent what the majority thinks, the clerics tell the majority WHAT to think and thats far more dangerous... And you would be surprised to what extend people actually listen to clerics...if you are a poor person who is disillusion with what you think is a corrupt government you will probably listen to the Imam before the PM.

posted December 08, 2006 03:51 AM            

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Now Johnny, it seems to me that fairness demands you address this...if for no other reason than your haste to assign racism to the quote you posted.

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Hi, Jwhop. I can't stress enough how funny I find it to hear a supporter of Israel talk about fairness.

Yes, racism exists on both sides, but, when one side clearly holds all of the power, talk of fairness is rather moot, wouldn't you say?

Also, do you see a way to ascribe something *other* than racism to the quote I posted?

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You might also wish to delve into the concept of returning land...

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Irony much?

I could actually talk for quite a while about the concept of "returning land" with regards to the subject of Israel.

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If you can get through all that, you might wish to address the fact the US has been the restraining influence in the area and counseled Israel to give the captured land back...after also interceding with Israel on behalf of Arab nations to stop wars they had started by attacking Israel.

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Paltry measures, given the injustice of the situation as a whole.

I honestly find it surprising that an intelligent person is capable of defending Israel, of all nations.

posted December 08, 2006 12:04 PM            

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I honestly find it surprising that an intelligent person is capable of defending Israel, of all nations.

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I find that statement very biased...What the heck makes a person less intelligent for supporting one side over the other. We all make intelligent decisions for believing what we do and this holier-than-thou attitude doesnt really help anyone.

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Hi, Jwhop. I can't stress enough how funny I find it to hear a supporter of Israel talk about fairness.

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We all have our views of morality and it is condescending to imply that one's position is by any means supperior to anyone elses. Obvsiously we all think our opinions are right but to say they are by any means better/more fair/ more intelligent is simply not right...

As to the side who holds all the power...im dying to know which side would that be...more power yes...all power...hardly...if Israel had all power it would be able to get rid of Palestinians without any trouble and prevent any of its citizens from getting hurt. Clearly that isnt the case...

As for the land...before the founding of the state of Israel there was NO such nation as Palestine. The land first belong to the Ottoman Empire and then to the British who took it from said Ottoman Empire so in that case why shouldnt say Turkey lay claim to the entire middle east and take back all its land with the exuse "oh those horrible brits took apart our empire and we want everything from Iran to North Africa"...fair enough seems to me... West Bank belongs to Jordan if we will think of it that way, and it was conquered by Israel AFTER Jordan attacked it...going back to said Ottoman Empire why shouldnt they have it with that logic? To the victor go to the spoils.

I would also love to know why does anyone assume that if Israel seizes to exist there will ever be a country called Palestine. Last time i checked the surrounding nations have their eyes set on the land. So if its taken by other Arab nations, Palestinians will still be nothing more than an unedcuated and impovrished minority and then would have no one to complain to because they are under the control of fellow Arabs. Believe it or not Palestine benefits from the existance of Israel more than anyone would care to admit...no Israel...no Palestine. Consider that please before you start passing moral judgements. Its all politics, morality was never an issue...

posted December 08, 2006 02:13 PM            

If you don't know the answers, the proper response is..."I don't know". Obfuscation doesn't cut it

If you believe the US saving the military forces and equipment of nations which attacked Israel numerous times; if you believe intervening with Israel to give back land captured in war is..."paltry", well then I doubt we have much to talk about.

In truth, the US has been the best friend Israel's Arab neighbors have on earth and without the US, it's doubtful Syria, Jordan and perhaps Egypt would have survived their attacks on Israel.

Israel is superior militarily against the combined armies of their Arab neighbors. The fact Israel chooses not to use their military superiority unless attacked speaks well for them.

The same thing cannot be said for their Arab neighbors who would destroy Israel in a New York minute if they could....and they certainly have tried.

posted December 08, 2006 05:05 PM            

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As for the land...before the founding of the state of Israel there was NO such nation as Palestine

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posted December 08, 2006 11:11 PM            

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I find that statement very biased...

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Eh? When did I claim to not be biased?

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We all make intelligent decisions for believing what we do and this holier-than-thou attitude doesnt really help anyone.

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Untrue. Many people make highly unintelligent decisions for believing what they do. And I feel entirely justified in having a holier-than-thou attitude towards stupid people (not that Jwhop is, and not that I am having such an attitude in the first place.)

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We all have our views of morality and it is condescending to imply that one's position is by any means supperior to anyone elses. Obvsiously we all think our opinions are right but to say they are by any means better/more fair/ more intelligent is simply not right...

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Eck, I hate relativism.

How's this: MY position is that what you just said is utterly wrong, and that my position is better than yours. Is it true, then, that my position (which directly contradicts your stated principle that "all positions are equal") is wrong?

As you can see, it is thus logically impossible for "all positions to be equal."

Contrary to popular 'opinion,' morality is not a subjective matter - it is not dictated by religion, culture, or individual personality. Such cop-outs are silly at best and extremely dangerous otherwise.

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As for the land...before the founding of the state of Israel there was NO such nation as Palestine.

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What now? I think you are confusing nation with country. Yes, the nation of Palestine existed long before Israel was set up by foreign powers in pre-occupied land.

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Believe it or not Palestine benefits from the existance of Israel more than anyone would care to admit...no Israel...no Palestine. Consider that please before you start passing moral judgements.

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I have now officially considered it, and come to the conclusion that, given my present understanding of the situation, I think it is dead wrong.

posted December 08, 2006 11:29 PM            

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You know Johnny, I'm a little surprised to see you punt when I asked for your input.

If you don't know the answers, the proper response is..."I don't know". Obfuscation doesn't cut it

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Bah, where did I obfuscate? Maybe I didn't jump at the chance to argue under the terms you provided, but I hardly think that counts as obfuscation!

!

Besides, I rather think you do the same thing. Often!

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If you believe the US saving the military forces and equipment of nations which attacked Israel numerous times; if you believe intervening with Israel to give back land captured in war is..."paltry", well then I doubt we have much to talk about.

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I said that it was paltry given the injustice of the situation as a whole. Which it is. Seeing as how Israel wouldn't even exist without the US, and, even if it did, would never have had the wherewithal to survive, I don't see how a few interventions on the part of the US to restrain Israel is such a big deal.

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In truth, the US has been the best friend Israel's Arab neighbors have on earth and without the US, it's doubtful Syria, Jordan and perhaps Egypt would have survived their attacks on Israel.

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Well, gosh, with friends like those...

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Israel is superior militarily against the combined armies of their Arab neighbors. The fact Israel chooses not to use their military superiority unless attacked speaks well for them.

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Why on Earth would Israel need to take military action when we are ever so ready to do so for them?

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The same thing cannot be said for their Arab neighbors who would destroy Israel in a New York minute if they could....and they certainly have tried.

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Of course.

Speaking of punting, you never gave me your input as to why you support Israel.

posted December 08, 2006 11:34 PM            

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DL, thanks for the admission Palestine is the homeland of the Jewish people and that they were "expelled", without compensation, from their homeland.

It follows naturally then that they have "prior rights" to their own land.

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Please tell me this isn't why, Jwhop.

posted December 09, 2006 12:31 AM            

No one has ever accused me of obfuscation and I usually answer direct questions...if I see them.

Exactly what injustice are you talking about? As I read it, the surrounding Arab nations hatched a plot to attack and destroy the new state of Israel immediately and did attack with the combined armies of 7 Arab nations 1 hour after Israel became a nation.

To make sure the Arabs living in the area were out of the way of the attack, these nations, specifically Egypt told them to leave...and when the new nation of Israel was crushed and the Jews killed, they could return and occupy not only the area but the Jewish homes as well. Didn't exactly work out that way though. About 500,000 so called Palestinians fled before the first attack on Israel.

Now, would you like to talk about the 800,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab nations, their property, businesses and belongings confiscated by the Arab states? Most of them had lived in those nations for hundreds of years. They fled to Israel with only the clothes on their backs.

If you want to know WHY and HOW Israel came to exist, you need to read the Balfour Declaration of 1917...A British document...Britain having control over Palestine at the time and up until 1948. Essentially, the British promised a Jewish homeland.

I think if you were to give an honest evaluation and the Arab neighbors of Israel who have repeatedly attacked Israel were to do the same, you both would think it a very big deal indeed that the US intervened with Israel on behalf of their Arab neighbors to stop the wars before they were totally crushed. Not to mention the US involvement in arranging peace treaties between the parties. Peace treaties which the Arabs consistently broke.

Perhaps you'll furnish some proof the US military fights Israel's wars for them.

Is Israel morally superior to their neighbors? Well Johnny, it's not Israel who makes war on Arab civilians. It's not Israel who deliberately attacks civilian population centers with the intent to kill Arab civilians. That would seem to be the tactics of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and other Arabs who launch attacks against Israeli civilians. It's not Israel which denies the right of a Palestinian State. It's Israel's neighbors and other Arab and Muslim states which deny Israel the right to merely exist.

You might also wish to consider there are many thousands of Arab citizens of Israel...full citizenship with full citizenship rights...including the right to vote and hold elected office within the State of Israel. In fact, in all the Middle East, there is not one Arab nation where ordinary Arab citizens are treated nearly so well or have the range of rights Arabs enjoy as citizens of Israel.

I admit I admire the Israeli's restraint. I would have lost all my patience long, long, long ago. I would take threats to kill me very seriously...and not at all well.

posted December 09, 2006 12:59 AM            

As for hating relativism, here i will differ. Despite my Scoprio moon loving extremes, my Libra rising loves balance and im very pro relativism when it comes to everything. I have realised in my Ethics class that there isnt a single moral rule that will fit every example without exception thus to be fair everything should be relative.

Ahhh a paradox, im loving it. I didnt say there is no such thing as a wrong position. I just said they are all equal in their value. Plus if we treat opinion as a theory/hypothesis then they are all equally right or equally wrong unless one is actually proven (as a case study in this subject) or in general to be repeated all over again. Since neither ur opinion nor anyone elses was proven to be actual fact then therefore they are EQUALLY right/wrong thus none of them being better. All positions are equal UNTIL one is proven true...or false...this hasnt happened thus u have to treat them equally..

Pardon but wats the definition of nation and country. As far as im concerned nation is a state with defined borders and sovereignty as well as a monopoly of taxation (thats my international relations's teacher's definition and im sticking to it). Given that no such nation as Palestine EVER existed.

"Main Entry: na·tion-state
Pronunciation: 'nA-sh&n-'stAt, -"stAt
Function: noun
: a form of political organization under which a relatively homogeneous people inhabits a sovereign state"

This is what im refering to...no sovereign state hence no nation.

I noticed how u didnt comment on my previous statement how Turkey has more righ to that land than say Hamas or the fact that Arab nations would divide it among themselves anyways...why is that? I do certainly enjoy speaking to you

posted December 09, 2006 01:05 AM            

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Now, would you like to talk about the 800,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab nations, their property, businesses and belongings confiscated by the Arab states? Most of them had lived in those nations for hundreds of years. They fled to Israel with only the clothes on their backs.

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posted December 09, 2006 02:12 AM            

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You seem a little out of sorts tonight Johnny.

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Pfft.

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Exactly what injustice are you talking about?

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I am talking about the injustice of powerful countries arbitrarily creating a "homeland" for a foreign people out of pre-occupied land based on extremely shaky territorial claims which nonetheless have to be at least a few thousand years past their expiration dates.

All the later history of the neighboring Arab states attacking Israel, breaking treaties, etc., is, I think, quite understandable in light of this. Under the circumstances, I think most countries would react similarly.

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To make sure the Arabs living in the area were out of the way of the attack, these nations, specifically Egypt told them to leave...

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Well, that was very considerate of them.

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Now, would you like to talk about the 800,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab nations...

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800,000 you say? That's quite a figure - you sure that it's accurate?

Nevertheless, I'd be interested to know *why* they were expelled - perhaps these Arab nations felt that (how did the Israeli Vice PM put it?) minorities are the worst problem in the world?

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Is Israel morally superior to their neighbors? Well Johnny, it's not Israel who makes war on Arab civilians. It's not Israel who deliberately attacks civilian population centers with the intent to kill Arab civilians.

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I think we must get our news from radically different sources.

Israel doesn't make war on Arab civilians? There's tons of evidence to the contrary, I think. What's that wall around Gaza called? I forget.

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It's Israel's neighbors and other Arab and Muslim states which deny Israel the right to merely exist.

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Here's a direct question, then: Why should Israel exist (in your POV)? For myself, I immediately balk at justification derived the Biblical myth about Israel being the "land promised by Yahweh" or whatever, but if there's another reason, I'd love to know what it is.

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In fact, in all the Middle East, there is not one Arab nation where ordinary Arab citizens are treated nearly so well or have the range of rights Arabs enjoy as citizens of Israel.

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Hmm, is that so? You may be right; I couldn't say. Most of those Arab countries are quite disgusting, certainly.

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Perhaps you'll furnish some proof the US military fights Israel's wars for them.

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Well, I could, but then I'd have to kill you.

I could make a pretty good case that the U.S. is, in fact, subordinating its own interests for those of Israel in regard to military policy in the Middle East... but I'm too tired. Surely you've heard at least some of it before, though?

If not, just Google AIPAC.