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Author
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Topic: Dixie Chicks, "not ready to make nice"
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AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 26, 2007 03:11 PM
  
I don't think we have had this discussion before Jwhop as I'd not looked into this before today. Regardless, I'm certain that you would characterize the initiator of a war as a murderer as long as they weren't a Republican. You are and always have been very quick to label, so by rights you should be the most tolerant of this behavior in others. IP: Logged |
BlueRoamer
Knowflake Posts: 95
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 26, 2007 06:15 PM
AG~  Speaking the good word, as usual. IP: Logged |
Dulce Luna
Newflake Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 26, 2007 07:38 PM
quote:
Regardless, I'm certain that you would characterize the initiator of a war as a murderer as long as they weren't a Republican. You are and always have been very quick to label, so by rights you should be the most tolerant of this behavior in others.
Preach on!
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BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 26, 2007 08:29 PM
quote:
No, biased labeling is what Jwhop does with people he considers to be traitors. Labeling someone a murderer for initiating a war is something that is quite universally common.
2 things: a) just cuz Jwhop does or does not do something certainly doesn't exuse anyone else either. b) Murder is also a universal constant but that doesn't make it okay. So just because people label someone a murderer doesn't really make it so. Think Witch Trials. And i think Jwhop's explanation of hebrew meanings (as thats the language of the commandments) was perfect therefore it doesn't apply. Logically speaking if such was the case Moses himself (in the case of the thousands of Jews he killed upon coming from the mountains) would be a breaking of his own commandment WHICH IT WAS NOT. quote:
Regardless, I'm certain that you would characterize the initiator of a war as a murderer as long as they weren't a Republican
But I would not AND im a Democrat  Im quite interested why everyone is attacking Jwhop when it was I who stated that Bush cannot be labeled a murder and it is I who am against labeling... IP: Logged |
Dulce Luna
Newflake Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 26, 2007 08:40 PM
Well, he intiated an uneccesary war that has now made Iraq the land of death and destruction. Disagree all you want, I don't care but that in my eyes constitutes a mass murderer.  IP: Logged |
Johnny
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Egypt
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted February 26, 2007 08:49 PM
quote:
To kill in battle is not against any commandment
Interestingly, the early Christian church penalized murder in battle the same as any other sort of murder. This was before the crusades, of course. Bush is (supposedly) a Christian. IP: Logged |
SecretGardenAgain
unregistered
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posted February 26, 2007 08:54 PM
First of all Moses' intention was to lead the Jews to freedom not to kill them. Bush's intentions in Iraq are totally different. Although some people believe he is leading the Iraqis to freedom and saving from the evil Saddam quite a few Iraqis and the majority of Arabs in the world do not agree with that viewpoint. I think its a little problematic to say that Arabs would not understand Iraqi mentality as much as America would. Really ? Does America understand Iraqis better than Iraqis and other Arabs? For instance the kind of commentary Ive seen by Iraqis on ARab tv, and particularly on Arab news now that I am in Egypt, and can watch Arab news on seventy different cable channels, is extremely negative toward the US. So one would presume he did not go there to be a savior. It was for other political and economic reasons. Intention is a MAJOR factor in the definition of murder in any religious text. Now I am not imposing islamic mentality on the issue but there is a saying in Islam thtat goes something like this: If someone knows something evil is happening around them and fails to stop it by 1. their hand (actions), 2. their tongue (speech) or 3. at least their heart (think and know that it is wrong), then they are participating in the evil and helping it succeed, because they are NOT fighting it. That is what I feel about bush. If one is not willing to admit that he : 1. Ordered the killing of Iraqi civilians himself, then one should consider he might have 2. Condoned the killing by his speech, or 3. felt it was ok in his heart/brain because it was collateral damage. Any of those three things makes a pesron a murderer in my eyes. If you are standing by watching someone being killed and think thats A OK then you are as bad as the murderer himself even if you have not perpetrated the act because you have empathy and tolerance for the act. Its similar to the concept that Nazis who did not directly kill people but helped in the torture and did not say anything were also racist. Oftentimes murderers are not directly involevd in murder, and that is the cleverest kind of murder. Consider for instance Charles Manson who only brainwashed ppl into believing in his cult and the main point in his prosecution case was how to prove him guilty when he didnt kill anyone with his own two hands (but he encouraged the murders, so he was found guilty). Now the example isnt meant to say Bush is psycho or a criminal BUT Im saying that a person can be a murderer while not killing a person. IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 01:11 AM
quote:
First of all Moses' intention was to lead the Jews to freedom not to kill them.
True but kill him he did we aren't talking motive just yet. quote:
Bush is (supposedly) a Christian.
Bush is whatever he believes himself to be. "Let the one with no sin cast the first stone"- Jesus quote:
Bush's intentions in Iraq are totally different
We aren't discussing intention. We are discussing whether killing in battle (Bush hasnt killed in battle in Iraq war) is murder. The issue is ordering others to kill. Does that make Bush a murderer acording to the commandments? Not unless it makes Moses a murderer...No im not comparing Bush to Moses so all ye self righteous who wish to imply I did let me stop u before you bother... quote:
Although some people believe he is leading the Iraqis to freedom and saving from the evil Saddam
Mind u quite a few Iraqis believe that. As for the majority of Arab world believing that. Well is the majority really surveyed? Given the governments censorships and biases are those tests valid etc? quote:
think its a little problematic to say that Arabs would not understand Iraqi mentality as much as America would. Really ? Does America understand Iraqis better than Iraqis and other Arabs?
Who said that? quote:
If someone knows something evil is happening around them and fails to stop it by
According to that Bush has to know what he is doing is EVIL....if he thinks that what he is doing is saving the Iraqis from tyranny then ur statement no longer applies and u can accuse him of ignorance but not murder. quote:
felt it was ok in his heart/brain because it was collateral damage. Any of those three things makes a pesron a murderer in my eyes.
Thats a little bizzare...say someone finds ooh i dont know Osama and shoots him square in the forehead...and I say "GOOD THEY SHOT HIM" (condoning by speech). Does that mean I should be on trial for murder or that I am in any way responsible for his death? Not at all... quote:
Its similar to the concept that Nazis who did not directly kill people but helped in the torture and did not say anything were also racist.
LOL out of sheer curiosity does everyone on this forum feel the need to compare everything to the Nazis in order to get their point across cuz 1) its not working 2) its very pretentios. Hitler's extermination of the Jews was a systematic well planned out action against civilians who were unable to fight back. The war in Iraq was againast a governmental regime with a standing army (which crumbled like dry bread on a sunny day, nevertheless...not the same) quote:
Now the example isnt meant to say Bush is psycho or a criminal BUT Im saying that a person can be a murderer while not killing a person.
True but not in Bush's case because it is a well understood fact of the structured world with governments that in the time of need said leaders of the government will deply troops to defend its own people. They are not considered murderers. IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 02:16 AM
There was no need of defense from Saddam at the time. It was an aggressive act on the administration's part.IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 10:14 AM
Perhaps but we had this discussion before. The administration acted on intelligence which turned out to be wrong. So therefore at the time they felt the need for defense. IP: Logged |
Dulce Luna
Newflake Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 01:03 PM
^^^The blood is still as good as on their hands for their actions and that's all I'll say. quote:
That is what I feel about bush. If one is not willing to admit that he : 1. Ordered the killing of Iraqi civilians himself, then one should consider he might have 2. Condoned the killing by his speech, or 3. felt it was ok in his heart/brain because it was collateral damage. Any of those three things makes a pesron a murderer in my eyes. If you are standing by watching someone being killed and think thats A OK then you are as bad as the murderer himself even if you have not perpetrated the act because you have empathy and tolerance for the act. Its similar to the concept that Nazis who did not directly kill people but helped in the torture and did not say anything were also racist.
Yes, I learned of sin of a similar nature in my religion class in Highschool...its called Apathy. IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 02:09 PM
The Iraq war was a mistaken idea. The administration considered Iraq to be a threat in some manner, and wanted to believe there were ties to Al Qaeda. Iraq wasn't actually a threat. Nor did they have a relationship with Al Qaeda.Mistake They believed what we now call bad intelligence about the threat posed. Mistake They didn't pay attention to good intelligence regarding what may happen as a result of invasion. Mistake They decided on a rapid timeline for pursuing the war, which was entirely unnecessary. Mistake They did not fully utilize diplomacy, though they were pressured to do so. Diplomacy may have resulted in saving face on a global scale, building a stronger and better coalition, and relieving some of the financial burden from us (and I'm probably leaving some stuff out here). Mistake You can theorize all you want about intention and motivation, but it's very plainly clear to me that this is one enormous blunder severely lacking in wisdom. Wise men don't start wars, they end them. IP: Logged |
lotusheartone
unregistered
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posted February 27, 2007 02:13 PM
I think everything happens for a reason...
and it's Karmic...it's done, it's the past..
and what is done cannot be changed...
what is important now...is what we do from this day forward.... IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 02:23 PM
Well, for once I think you're right, Lotus. (Mark it in the books)What's unfortunate to me is that if Iraq stabilizes in the next 20 years this President Bush may be tributed with it despite having made every mistake in the book.  IP: Logged |
lotusheartone
unregistered
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posted February 27, 2007 02:32 PM
Thanks AG  I'm more worried, about who
our next President will be.. IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 07:24 PM
Maybe so AG not disagreeing with ur statements but Im arguing that its all not murder.Either way people overlook the good this war actually did. And it has done some good. And we still don't know where it will go. You cannot judge something until its over. I do not support the war one bit but now that it was started it should be finished. And calling Bush a murderer is just pointless propoganda for which my Libra rising doesnt stand for. IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 09:09 PM
Personally, I don't think your use of the term propaganda quite works... at least not for me. Propaganda is something like Republicans using the term "Death Tax" in place of the actual term which is "Estate Tax." Propaganda, to me, is one group trying to influence the mindset of another group into believing something that may not be altogether true. If some people want to deem Bush a murderer for starting a war, that's not propaganda. That's people expressing their values. I don't see a component of these people actively trying to change the mindset of people who may think otherwise.I agree that something good may come from this, but I think that any praise Bush receives for this in the future will be ill-advised, because as a matter of practicality the execution of liberating Iraq (which wasn't the point they sold the American people on) was moronic. IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 09:58 PM
to me propoganda is what the Webster's Dictionary defines it as quote:
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
quote:
I don't see a component of these people actively trying to change the mindset of people who may think otherwise.
I would have to disagree. quote:
but I think that any praise Bush receives for this in the future will be ill-advised, because as a matter of practicality the execution of liberating Iraq (which wasn't the point they sold the American people on) was moronic.
Not disagreeing there, just disagreeing on murder charges. IP: Logged |
Johnny
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Egypt
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted February 27, 2007 10:05 PM
quote:
Bush is whatever he believes himself to be. "Let the one with no sin cast the first stone"- Jesus
Ack, I think not. People believe themselves to be all sorts of ridiculous things; doesn't make it true. (I'm not a Christian, btw; Jesus quotes don't do it for me.) quote:
We aren't discussing intention. We are discussing whether killing in battle (Bush hasnt killed in battle in Iraq war) is murder. The issue is ordering others to kill. Does that make Bush a murderer acording to the commandments? Not unless it makes Moses a murderer
So, what if I hire a hitman to kill someone? Does that make me a murderer? Btw, how exactly can one argue that Moses wasn't a murderer in the Old Testament? Would you also argue that he didn't follow a god of war and genocide?
IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 11:02 PM
quote:
People believe themselves to be all sorts of ridiculous things; doesn't make it true.
Yes but that doesn't include religion since no one person can define what a "proper" follower of said religion is, no one can say someone isnt. IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 27, 2007 11:12 PM
quote:
I would have to disagree.
I live 30 miles outside of arguably the most liberal city in the country, and I don't witness anyone who's agenda is "spreading" the idea that Bush is a murderer. IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 49
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted February 28, 2007 12:38 AM
LOL i mean on this thread not in the country IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 28, 2007 01:52 AM
Then it would seem to be a simple difference of opinion then. You don't see Bush as a killer/murderer, and BlueRoamer does. SGA, Dulce, Johnny, and I can both justify the label and the idea of Bush as responsible for death. Jwhop can justify all sorts of labels, but wouldn't in this case.IP: Logged |
Johnny
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Egypt
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted February 28, 2007 02:32 AM
quote:
Yes but that doesn't include religion since no one person can define what a "proper" follower of said religion is, no one can say someone isnt.
I think that is the sort of attitude that is responsible for the degeneracy in many religions today. I've heard many Muslims say that radical Islamic terrorists are not true Muslims, because, by killing innocents and whatever, they are breaking the tenants of Islam. Are they wrong? Are they unjustified in denouncing these radicals? What about the Catholic priests who abused their position of trust to sexually exploit children? Are they truly Christians? If so, what is Christianity? A religion that supports child-molestation? Religions have tenants and principles for a reason - if you ignore them and just go all PC and say "Everyone is whatever religion they think they are, no matter their actions," then it kills all the meaning the religion had in the first place. What's the term - reductio ad absurdum? If I worship Shiva and call myself a Christian, am I? At what point do I stop being Christian and start being Hindu, if ever? IP: Logged |
Dulce Luna
Newflake Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 28, 2007 09:30 AM
quote:
Yes but that doesn't include religion since no one person can define what a "proper" follower of said religion is, no one can say someone isnt
Ok, now this is getting ridiculous because you are getting too technilogical. Johnny is right...are you now saying that the Muslim terrorists are true Muslims....and the Catholic priests who rape little boys are true Christians or the Zionists are true Jews? And also, that people are not justified on calling them the opposite when they have done things to disgrace the respective faiths? And the same for Bush too. I don't believe him to be a good Christian at all...sorry. IP: Logged |
Lindaland
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