posted February 23, 2008 03:15 PM            

But, Barak Obama thinks we should..and he would talk to our enemies...no preconditions necessary.

Hey, now I know what's wrong with Bush. He's had it all backwards. He's been talking to our friends and allies....and bombing our enemies.

Hot flash Britain, Spain and Italy. Obama would bomb friends and allies.

Hot flash France and Germany. Obama would bomb friends and allies.

Hot flash Japan, Taiwan and Australia. Obama would bomb friends and allies.

Oh Canada. What a close target you are. You could have been we and we could have been thee. Obama would bomb friends and allies. Question is Canada, would Obama bomb you first...or last?

Not to dispair. There's still time for all our friends and allies to adopt the official position that your nations are official enemies of the United States. Then, Obama would talk to you and wouldn't bomb you.

I know Obama isn't smart enough to see where this could lead.

The socialist dream has always been to unite the world in a little socialist gulag state....as friends.

Finally, something new from the socialists which didn't escape through the ass of Karl Marx. Bomb friends and allies and talk to enemies.

The world would be more quickly united as enemies rather than friends and allies. After all, we bomb friends and allies but talk to enemies.

Obama hasn't seen this yet and may never be able to comprehend it but if every nation on earth declared every other nation on earth enemies, then we could all talk and not bomb. World Peace is at hand.

If any nation gets too friendly, we just bomb the hell out of them until they get back over the line and put us on their official enemies list again. Problem solved....thanks to Obama.

posted February 24, 2008 05:00 AM              

i guess disinformation artist that u are ,its obvious why u didnt post the article itself instead of your own warped version of what Obama said.

heres something from the article

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Obama's stance comes amid debate in Washington over what to do about a resurgent al Qaeda and Taliban in areas of northwest Pakistan that President Pervez Musharraf has been unable to control, and concerns that new recruits are being trained there for a September 11-style attack against the United States.

Obama said if elected in November 2008 he would be willing to attack inside Pakistan with or without approval from the Pakistani government, a move that would likely cause anxiety in the already troubled region.

"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said.

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the intelligence OBAMA is talking about was sent by Indian intelligence agencies to the Bush Administration more than 2 years ago, proving that Gen. Musharraf was conning American Adm. with his talk of being an ally in the war against terorism. the fact IS Pakistan was and has been the capital of terrorist agencies, be it Al- Qaida , Jamaat E Islami etc.the evidence that was sent to the US military and CIA comprised an inventory of terrorists wanted by the CIA and Interpol, who are enjoying a peaceful life somewhere in the Pakistan Frontier, with FULL KNOWLEDGE and SUPPORT of the Pakistani Administration. that is if u call a militray dictatorship an administration.

if anything Obama should be Applauded.he is talking about doing what BUSH has chosen to ignore for years. that Pakistan is playing a double game with India as well as US.the billions of aid sent to Pakistan ends up in these militant outfits. HOW ? many of the terrorists captured by the Indian Army in Kashmir have been discovered to be Pakistan military personnel. they are LENT to militant agencies who are hidden offshoots of the ISI.

as for Obama threatening to attack those areas that Musharraf has been " Unable to control".

BRAVO Obama.

the fact is if Musharraf had been on ur side he would have ended up like Benazir Bhutto a long time ago. it would be worth ur while to be INFORMED about the Political equations between Pakistan, and Islamic militancy . If u HAD ,u would call anyone who thinks Musharraf and Pakistan are ur friends a complete Brain Disorder.
I have no idea why Bush and the US military chose to sit on the fact even with the evidence that they had been provided and UR article reveals , that Pakistan has NOT helped America at all as far the war against terrorism is concerned.

the areas of Northern Frontier is from where we are facing terrorist insurgency, since the 1980's , ever since Benazir Bhutto supported militant insurgency as Pakistans president.the day she distanced herself from Islamic militancy to appear more of a democratic possibility for the western media the hardliners took a Fatwa on her life. in India and in Pakistan , those who know the rules of the game were not shocked or apalled at her assasination. it was Karma plain and simple. she even made public statements openly supporting the militancy that was claiming innocent Indian lives. no one is deluded about the equation between Pakistan military and its so called democratic leaders. the 3 times a President tried to operate outside of the military's shadow, Pakistan has ended up under Martial Law.

posted February 24, 2008 05:01 AM              

excerpt

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What were the reasons for the post-1980 radicalisation of the madrasas?

Firstly, the Afghan jihad against the Soviet troops. The intelligence agencies of the US, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan used the madrasas for radicalising the Muslim youth and motivating them to join the Afghan Mujahideen in their jihad against the Soviet troops. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) got a number of text books prepared with the help of Wahhabi clerics of Saudi Arabia projecting Communism as anti-Islam and calling for jihad against the Communist evil in Afghanistan, had them printed in printing presses in the US and distributed to the madrasas. According to Mr. Ishtiaq Ahmed, Associate Professor of political science at the Stockholm University:

"The joint CIA-Saudi initiative resulted in a proliferation of madrasas, regardless of the genuine need for maulvis. Thanks to the CIA’s 51 million US dollar grant to the University of Nebraska to produce pictorial textbooks glorifying jihad, killing, maiming and bombing other human beings was made sufficiently entertaining. Sadism could now be cultivated as a virtue. That was when madrasa doors were opened to the mass of the poor. The new “education” they received was to hate the Russians, later generalised to include any non-Muslim. Jews, Hindus and Christians figured prominently and out of it came the expression of a Yahud-Hunud-Nasara conspiracy against Islam. The phrase had never existed previously, but because of its Arabic sounds, it went readily to the hearts and minds of the Islamists. The Buddhists did not fit into the Yahud-Hunud-Nasara formula. But the Taliban by destroying the Buddha statues at Bamiyan indicated that even Buddhists were against Islam and therefore their symbolic presence in Islamic Afghanistan had to be annihilated." The textbooks prepared at the instance of the CIA taught the students that it was their religious obligation to wage a jihad against the Soviets and their stooges. The same textbooks are now being used after appropriate revisions to tell the students of their preligious obligation to kill the Americans and their stooges. Secondly, Zia's concerns over the impact of the Iranian Islamic Revolution of 1979 on the loyalty of the Shias of Pakistan. He encouraged the madrasas controlled by the Sunnis to include in their teachings the need to counter the Shia assertiveness.

What was the role of the madrasas in Afghanistan?

Nearly 3,000 students of the madrasas joined Gulbuddin Hekmatyar’s Hizb-e Islami and fought against the Soviet troops. In April 1992, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) asked the madrasas controlled by the religious fundamentalist organisations to declare a vacation to enable the students to join the Afghan Mujahideen in their final assault on Kabul, which led to the collapse of the Najibullah Government. The ISI issued them arms and ammunition at the border before they crossed over into Afghanistan. Similarly, in September 1996. The ISI asked these madrasas to declare a vacation to enable their students to assist the Taliban in its final assault on Kabul. They came back to the madrasas and resumed their studies after the Taliban had captured Kabul. The Taliban was and continues to be made up of the products of the madrasas, Afghans as well as Pakistanis.

What has been the role of the madrasas in the spread of jihadi terrorism in and from Pakistan?

All the leaders and cadres of the Sunni extremist Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP) and the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LEJ) and the Shia extremist Siph Mohammad, almost all the leaders of the Taliban and over 90 per cent of its cadres and over 70 per cent of the leaders and cadres of the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM), the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami (HUJI), the Jaysh-e-Mohammad (JEM), and the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET) are products of the madrasas. However, less than 15 per cent of the members of the Al Qaeda are madrasa products

What has been the role of the Pakistani madrasas in the radicalisation of the Muslim youth of Pakistani origin in West Europe and North America?

The Muslim youth of Pakistani origin studying in the madrasas of Pakistan fall into two categories---those who are sent by their parents in order to dilute the Western cultural influence on them and those, who come on their own in order to contribute to the cause of their religion. Some of them are already strongly anti-West before joining the madrasas and some become anti-West during their stay in the madrasas. In the last 20 years, there has been a steady increase in the number of Pakistanis, who have migrated to the West and in the number of mosques, which have come up in the West to cater to their religious needs. Since there are not many madrasas in the Western countries to produce qualified clerics to man these mosques, the Western Governments liberally issue medium and long-term visas to qualified clerics from Pakistan to come to the West and work in these mosques. Almost all of them are hate-mongers and use their position to spread hatred against the West to the religious congregation.

What has been the role of the madrasas in the spread of jihadi terrorism to other countries?

The madrasa products of the HUM, the HUJI, the JEM and the LET play an active role in jihadi terrorism directed against India. All of them are Pakistani and not Indian nationals. A large number of foreign Muslims come to the madrasas to be qualified as religious clerics. The largest number of foreign students in the Pakistani madrasas are Afghans---from inside Afghanistan as well as from the Afghan refugee camps in the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and Balochistan. The second largest numbers are from South-East Asia, mainly from Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar and Indonesia. The third largest number are from the Central Asian Republics (CARs), mainly from Uzbekistan, and the Chechen province of Russia and the Xinjiang region of China.. The fourth largest number are from the Muslim communities in West Europe and North America. Of these, Pakistanis and persons of Pakistani origin constitute the maximum. The fifth largest group is from countries such as Yemen, Somalia, Bangladesh, Tanzania, and Australia. Presently, next to the Afghans, the Thais constitute the second largest number of persons enrolled in the madrasas, mainly of Karachi. Uzbeks constitute the third largest number, in terms of individual nationalities. Not all madrasa students go back to their respective countries as motivated jihadi terrorists. But all go back as Western-haters. Many of these Western-haters ultimately function as clerics in the mosques of their countries and use their position to preach hatred against the West, against the US in particular. Often, jihadi terrorists are made not in the madrasas, but in the mosques headed by clerics who had studied in the madrasas of Pakistan. Saudi religious organisations use the madrasas of Pakistan for spreading Wahhabism to the Muslims of other countries and for the Arabization of the Muslims of South-East Asia, who are viewed as soft because of the influence of the Indian culture and the Hindu religion on them. In its election manifesto for the October, 2002, elections to the Pakistan National Assembly, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), the six-party fundamentalist coalition, had stated that if it came to power it would assist the jihad being waged by the people of the Southern Philippines, the Arakan area of Myanmar, the Jammu & Kashmir area of India, Palestine and the Chechen area of Russia. They have since included Southern Thailand also in the list of countries where Muslims are waging a jihad and whom they would assist. It is believed that the command and control of the jihad in Southern Thailand is now located in Karachi. In an editorial published on August 4,2005, the "Daily Times", the prestigious newspaper of Lahore, wrote: "To our shame, nearly 1,200 religious schools under one organisation in Karachi alone are “teaching” all sorts of refugees from Southeast Asia, including those from Thailand, many of whom have been returning home to raise the flag of a futile Islamic revolt."

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posted February 24, 2008 05:06 AM              

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Does Pakistan’s government support terrorism?

It has, and experts say that Pakistan’s military and Interservices Intelligence (ISI) both include personnel who sympathize with—or even assist—Islamist militants. ISI has provided covert but well-documented support to terrorist groups active in Kashmir, including the al-Qaeda affiliate Jaish-e-Mohammed, which investigators linked to the December 2001 attack on the Indian parliament and the February 2002 murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. President Pervez Musharraf made promises to stop Kashmiri militants from crossing into the Indian-held sector of Kashmir, but India insists Musharraf has yet to stop the terrorists’ movements.

How did Pakistan respond to September 11?

Pakistan, which had backed al-Qaeda’s Taliban hosts before September 11, abruptly reversed course and threw its lot in with the U.S.-led antiterrorist coalition. Under heavy U.S. pressure, Musharraf condemned the attacks and pledged Pakistan’s “unstinted cooperation” two days later. Pakistan has since become a key U.S. partner in its campaign against al-Qaeda, even as the perpetually turbulent, nuclear-armed Muslim country has teetered on the brink of war with India over the disputed province of Kashmir. Experts say Musharraf, who came to power in a 1999 coup, is under enormous strain: America is demanding that he crack down on Islamist militants; Pakistan’s religious extremists and some intelligence officials are furious at him for abandoning Afghanistan’s Taliban rulers and softening his line on Kashmir; and Pakistan’s main political parties are shunning him because he’s resisting the restoration of democracy.

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http://www.hindu.com/2006/08/24/stories/2006082408191200.htm

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Pakistan still backs terrorism: Patil

NEW DELHI: Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil on Wednesday told the Rajya Sabha that the Government was not satisfied with Pakistan's response to its concerns on cross-border terrorism.

India had handed over a list of (wanted) terrorists during (the last round of) Home Secretary-level talks, but Pakistan did nothing except denying their presence there. There is also no information on Pakistan taking any steps to dismantle infrastructure of terrorism on its territory. But, as a mature democracy, India was committed to the dialogue process, he said.

Replying to supplementaries raised during question hour, Mr. Patil said one or two names from the list provided to Pakistan could be of those involved in the terrorist plot unveiled recently in the United Kingdom.

As for the evidence sought by Pakistan on cross-border terrorism, the Minister said the Government had shared some information, and would go into greater details after full details were gathered in cases such as the recent the July 11 Mumbai serial blasts or Tuesday's action against two terrorists there.

Asked whether the Government would consider severing diplomatic ties with Pakistan, Mr. Patil said India was committed to the dialogue process. There was neither any move nor any need for taking such an extreme step. "We are unhappy, but as a mature democracy cannot take such steps that escalate the situation."

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]http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/index.htm]

the above is a hardcore review of the REAL Situation in Pakistan.

On whether the Government would urge the U.S. to impress upon Pakistan to refrain from supporting cross-border terrorism, the Minister said terrorism had become a worldwide phenomenon.

India had discussed the issue with 25 countries and sought their cooperation in exchange of information, intelligence and in withholding funds. "But we would like to depend on ourselves more than anyone else." He said that he had no information that the ISI was funded by drug mafia.

In its written reply on ISI activities in the Kashmir valley, Minister of State for Home Sriprakash Jaiswal said inputs suggested that the ISI continued to provide directions and logistical support, including recruitment, arms training and finances to terrorist outfits such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, Hizb-ul

posted February 24, 2008 01:15 PM            

"I understand that (Pakistan) President Musharraf has his own challenges. But let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaida leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will." - Barack Obama
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/367/

posted February 24, 2008 01:49 PM            

Keep up the good work,
foiling the jwhops of the world!

It's like shooting fish in a barrel,
but somebody's gotta do it.

My heroes!

posted February 24, 2008 04:12 PM            

If it is classified you surely won't read it on here. SO to see something that was presented to the President two years ago is normally classified for at least twenty years I think you need to really say please.....

Besides the interpol is not part of the US and does what it pleases but obviously you are not really in tune to what really goes on in the world.

If Obama was elected president he would be a socialist bombing ally's and talking to enemies, obviously that is too obscure for you all too see.

Again, that is why my wife calls people like you IMPOTENT... You can never rise to the occasion and you do not have what it takes to make your own life better so you have to zero in on an enemy. Poor you... Like she said before.. soon we will even take back the call centers because you still don't understand politics let alone our language. Good bye.. have fun with your own discourse!

Bear

posted February 24, 2008 05:56 PM            

quote:

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If Obama was elected president he would be a socialist bombing ally's and talking to enemies, obviously that is too obscure for you all too see.

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He would be a socialist bombing ally? What does that even mean?

posted February 24, 2008 07:03 PM            

After president Truman there was really no president greater than him that can pull us out of this war rut. Obama and Clinton seems the best candidates. For the first time in my adult life I have seen some one say the problem is not the rest of the world the problem is America. What courage it requires. And he is absolutely right about his comments on going after Pakistan. I am really impressed with his team who think from their upper parts of their body. The Americas are behind you pied piper

posted February 24, 2008 07:08 PM            

And you believe in going to other peoples lands without any shame. Geez, no wonder your country gets its share of illegal immigrants. Talk of Karma.

I think Venus did a brilliant job giving your blind eyes a new sight. May be she can look in to providing you a imitation of Viagara at a lower cost when you turn 40 just like some of your other America brothers
[Venus, may be you should charge for providing your service LOL. Some Americans like 'em do not value free things in life. Its their capitalist pscyhe to blame There are some Americans like Mark Twain who visits India with poetic eyes and there are some dumbos who prefer their superficial eyes.]

Theres a difference between dumb and Army dumb. You don't need to look that far but those ignorant comments that comes from someone who claims to be in the army. I find it hard to trust people on internet these days. Any one comes in any name. Truth seems adjusted.

posted February 24, 2008 09:30 PM              

""If it is classified you surely won't read it on here. SO to see something that was presented to the President two years ago is normally classified for at least twenty years I think you need to really say please""

well, the FACT is that a team of our military and defence intelligence was sent with evidence on terrorist hideouts in Pak alongwith evidence linking ISI and Pak Gen. Mush to the game, was released to the media. OBVIOUSLY the minute details were NOT released. BUT the names of some of the terorists KNOWN to be sheltered in PAK were made PUBLIC. some of them implicated in the many bombings that have happened across Asia as well as in a plane hijack that led to Taliban militants being released in barter for the passengers.

"Besides the interpol is not part of the US and does what it pleases but obviously you are not really in tune to what really goes on in the world."

wow, u and PID really are made for each other. First a selective reading with no attempt to EVEN TRY to be clear about what has been posted.
and why ?

coz it doesnt serve ur interests of Self- Promotion

u r obviously not here for a discussion. ur here to shove ur knowings down our throat

puts fingers in mouth....

PS.
It would have made YOU look less ASININE had YOU read AG's post that the terrorists who are hiding in Pakistan have killed 3000 Americans
FACT is anyone with half a brain can see ur post is NOT about the TOPIC , its about U massaging ur EGO .

posted February 24, 2008 09:31 PM              

Uh.. AG are all military personnel as DENSE as this

by which i mean, u havent RISEN to the occasion have u either

all u have PRODUCED is a post that is as JUNK as it gets and TWISTED my words to cover YOUR lack of ANY VALID inputs.And taken a page from ur wife's book on Psychological Terrorism to reassure urself of ur superiority over a Faceless Adversary.

talk about impotency

"" Poor you... Like she said before.. soon we will even take back the call centers because you still don't understand politics let alone our language""

ok dude, i demolished THAT statement of hers and she was smart enough not to even BACK her statements given all she can do is call me names.
our Youth have chucked ur Call Center jobs right back in ur face for better opportunities back home.

and what does ur wife say...

call the Grapes sour , thats what the Foxie did.

all in all more material on a thread about disinfornmation artists

posted February 24, 2008 09:47 PM              

a girl loves compliments, good one that

Acoustic God

thanx for posting something RELEVANT .........looks at Discussion Diversion Drill Seargents PID and Bear straight in the face ,

keep up the good work AG. i didnt know some of the stuff u said, nice..

P.S.

posted February 25, 2008 01:57 AM            

quote:

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Uh.. AG are all military personnel as DENSE as this

---

Fortunately no. Not all.

That's me in Navy dungarees talking on the phone at Boot Camp. I served four years.

posted February 25, 2008 04:21 AM              

dont mind this..... u look more a computer nerd than an Army man

still for ur all level headedness it IS hard to think were an army man, i mean in comparison to.......

posted February 25, 2008 07:17 AM            

Obama isn't doing anyone any favours by pressing this issue right now at the most sensitive of times. There isn't an elected president in Pakistan ATM and that bringing up this issue right now will only gain sympthizers for the terrorists and lable Americans with that "poke their noses where it doesn't belong" stereotype again. I thought Obama was smarter then that to let himself get dragged into this situation.

The Jamat-e-Islamia party of Pakistan has recently went through incredible reforms and are looking to progress things which reflect their own benifits. Obviously the Madrasas aren't the way to go to do things. What Obama should have done is waited till the Pakistani elections were over and THEN bring up the issue in question.

posted February 25, 2008 10:06 AM            

quote:

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and dont think that talking about this is going to win enemies in Asia. puhllleeeeez.

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On the contrary, it will only galvinize the ongoing problem with American stereotypical views in Asia; Particularly, the WTO violations U.S. committed when they imposed an electronic quota on chinese goods. China has a great interest both trade and military wise in Pakistan and Obama isn't helping his odds by winning allies if he continues down the road of the previous administration.

posted February 25, 2008 11:07 AM            

quote:

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Obama isn't doing anyone any favours by pressing this issue right now at the most sensitive of times. There isn't an elected president in Pakistan ATM and that bringing up this issue right now will only gain sympthizers for the terrorists and lable Americans with that "poke their noses where it doesn't belong" stereotype again.

---

posted February 25, 2008 11:31 AM            

Venus,

There used be times when liberals were found in the Army. Atleast 30 or so years ago. Now you find very few. Most are conservatives in the army. If you notice Bear is a conservative. As I stated previously that almost every one in America apparently has lost their souls to some one. Well apparently the belief is that the army has sold its soul to the GOP. I remember they once used to work for the nation. But not any more. They seem to work for the GOP

posted February 25, 2008 12:43 PM            

quote:

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He is still not in the position of power to talk on such a broad subject on behalf of his constituents like that.

---