posted June 29, 2009 04:58 PM            

Yin, I love Jack Kerouac. And Scorpios. My own personal addiction.
How cool is that you saw the manuscript!!
It's amazing that he didn't lose it through all that adventure, isn't it?

You know like in The Doors movie where Meg Ryan (or it could be in the book, No One Here Gets Out Alive) anyway, where Jim's girlfriend Pamela, had to constantly go behind him collecting all the scraps and napkins and wadded up papers to organize. Imagine what probably was lost? Imagine what artist' destroy in their haste? Boggles the mind, since I keep every thing I write on. I keep every greeting card I have ever received. Silly I guess, but I figure when I'm gone, my kids can sort of put it all together to figure out my life and answer any thing that I failed to explain.

posted June 30, 2009 04:14 PM            

...
If love is the answer,
can you please repeat the question?

~ Unknown ~

posted June 30, 2009 10:49 PM            

Good luck, eagle-boy.

posted June 30, 2009 10:55 PM            

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Yup. 'Cept I doubt the eagle has ever done "a hard day's work" in his entire life, lol. Eagles generally fly too high, and are too proud, to see themselves harnessed and fenced-in by humans for the pursuit of their most narrow and materialistic goals. They are not bound to other's values because they are not earthbound. Eagles fly above the fray, and see farther. They explore, and bring news of distant lands, distant cultures and value-systems. They are seers, who understand that the dictates of human society are not the promptings of their own true nature.

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So what are you saying? Eagles are better?

Some people have to work hard to put a roof over their head and toilet paper next to their toilet.

posted July 01, 2009 02:06 AM            

and i was thinking more about what you said about the Bull and Eagle's view of the earth, Gypsee......it could be likened to one seeing a microcosm and one a macro! Both significant, equally important.

posted July 01, 2009 11:33 AM              

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I guess it depends on your definition of real power. An armchair philosopher may be reclaiming power over internal and external pressures by dragging up and unravelling the knots in his/her own unconscious mind. This is power on some of the deepest levels, where the person is able to shed, like a snakeskin, familial and cultural prejudices which most people don't even realize they're being influenced and controlled by... And many people have a semblence of power only because they align themselves with the flow of popular opinion, or with some group which currently holds the economic and/or ideological high-ground in their society. Strength in numbers is not real strength. It takes tremendous energy (and real power) to swim alone, against these currents.

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And, yes, I did mean the beautiful things I wrote to you in that email. That is the best of me, and it comes out when I take medicine like psilocybin mushrooms, which were probably responsible for the accellerated evolution of homo sapiens, and for the spiritual harmony of our earliest social structures. Incidentally, those harmonious societies were cattle-worshipping, because the mushrooms grow in cow manure. Maybe you should get in-touch with your taurean roots? There was a time when you didnt pull the plow. When you grazed, and were treated with respect. A time before the enthronement of the Judeo-Christian work-ethic. A time when human relationship and connection to nature and spirit were valued more than the production and consumption of things. Eh. Nevermind. I dont care if you never understand this stuff. Just dont tell me to grow up, and I wont tell you to wake up. Deal?

posted July 01, 2009 12:22 PM            

What quote are you talking about? The one with the boys and the pebble? I just went through some threads trying to figure it out. I dont see how that is telling someone to grow up.

A "cold, Saturnian response" is how you are responding to me now! I'm afraid that youve taken things the wrong way here again and I dont know what to say to you. For one, you have your mind made up about me and you like to put me in neat little boxes in your mind. I find it amazing that you so quickly and easily jump to the conclusions you do and get mean with me and call me cold. I thought things were fine here. I wasnt being cold.

In regards to the whole work ethic thing, you are way off base. Youve brought it up many times before and I can see, I guess, how you would come to the conclusions you do about me, but you don't understand how wrong you are.

Something that bothers me a bit is how you like to say that people who work and provide for themselves and/or families are suckers. Like they are all materialistic hungry consumers and that's all they care or think about. Have you delved the depths of what that is really about about with you?

I dont have a work ethic, V. Just ask some of my former bosses. LOL

But because sleeping in a car in the winter was no picnic, just to mention one crappy example in my life, I have had to work hard at all kinds of different jobs so I could survive. I have had to rely on myself and do things. I know your situation is different. Still, I'm sorry to say, you have me all wrong.

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A time when human relationship and connection to nature and spirit were valued more than the production and consumption of things. Eh. Nevermind. I dont care if you never understand this stuff.

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Are you seriously saying this to me? You seriously think that I dont think this way and wouldnt understand?

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Just dont tell me to grow up, and I wont tell you to wake up. Deal?

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Where did I say that???? Listen, the quotes I post are just that, nice quotes. I dont direct them at you. That last one I posted up there about understanding is one I had read on another site and almost made it my signature. It had nothing to do specifically with you. I've always said something like that myself and I liked the quote.

You can tell me to wake up if you want. You still dont know me or where I'm at like you think you do. You think youve got me all figured out and sorry, but you do not. As evident by what you say here and have said elsewhere.

posted July 01, 2009 12:30 PM            

So, thank you.

posted July 01, 2009 12:53 PM            

Grow up,
if you may,
and if you must,
but remain an artist;
above all else,
remain an artist!

The death of imagination is worse, by far, than
the most stubborn and uncomprehending innocence.

~ valus

I really jived with that. Because although you like to paint me as some ice cold Saturn influenced person, I am not. I'm warm and childlike tyvm. Always have been and I attribute that to Taurus, Leo and Gemini placements.

If we were having a contest, i know it would be safe to say that I would win. Most likely me being a million times warmer than you with people in life in general. Yes, siree.

posted July 01, 2009 01:59 PM              

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If we were having a contest, i know it would be safe to say that I would win. Most likely me being a million times warmer than you with people in life in general. Yes, siree.

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Arent you the one always reminding me that what we see on these messageboards is not "life in general"??? I could easily keep things casual and warm, especially if i was only coming here to unwind. Mostly, I come here to work. I'm passionately and frankly defending some very unpopular beliefs, and supporting my claims with rational arguments, and, yes, that tends to get people riled up. I think that if you and I met outside of LL we would probably get along fine. Everyone who has met me (from LL) was surprised by how gentle, warm and sweet I am in person. As regards "life in general", I am the soft-spoken guy. I'm not the ruthlessly romantic, showboating Sun/VenusRx/Uranus Scorpio Midheaven you see. I'm the guy they come to when they want someone to listen and understand. I can be softer and more mothering than any woman you know. Thats who I am. I admit that i get a little carried away online, in defense of myself and my beliefs, but that is just one part of me.. and, aside from messageboard debates, its actually a very small part.

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Now how can you write something like that and then be so mean to me and clearly not see me clearly? lol

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I do have an impression of you that admits your hard-nosed Mars/Saturn side, and, believe it or not, I am capable of seeing many things in you; you can be all Mars/Saturn at times, and you can also be warm and playful and all the rest of it. You're a complex person, just like me. Maybe you cant understand how i can be so sweet and then so bitter, but I have no difficulty understanding how you can be so warm and yet so cold. I see a lot. And its because i see a lot that i am still very fond of you. If all I saw was Saturn and Mars, it wouldnt wound me half as much as it does. I would just put you in a box and write you off with a label. But its because i see your lovingness, too, and your open-mindedness, that it bothers me so much when you respond to me, not with those aspects of yourself, but with the mars and saturn. I dont pigeon-hole you. Although i feel like you do that to me, quite a bit.

As for the whole "suckers" thing, it is complicated (welcome to the 12th house!). You've also heard me say how much I admire those qualities. The suckers comments are generally cheeky. Lots of things I say are just playful and cheeky. I dont know if you saw Lara's post a while back (after our big fight) where she recognized that about me right away, and she related it to the chinese astrological sign of the Monkey. I was born in the Day of the Monkey, and that is supposed to repressent me even more than the year of the horse. I am cheeky, provocative, and sometimes flippant. Especially when i feel attacked -- I'll just say something to get your goat. I do think many people are suckers, but most people dont have much choice, and circumstance has forced them to bust their assets (so to speak). What bothers me is when i am judged. I have thought long and hard about how I am living, and how it fits into the context of this society, and into the context of my personal truth, and I do not believe that I am shirking my true responsibilities. I think that, ultimately, I do more good, and less evil, by living this way, than i would by doing what this backward society expects. It may be different for others, but, for me, this is true.

posted July 01, 2009 06:09 PM            

And why then did you say something about how only "grown ups" paint? That Picasso quote is a lovely one and it came to mind, that's all. I risked you taking it personal, oh well. Why would you take offense and think I was telling you to grow up. Do you think you need to grow up? Okay wait, I understand why you would, but that was not my intention. From the comments you were making, it seemed like you wanted to say that because you can't paint, you are better and only 'old, responsible, grown-up' people paint. I know you are an artist in your own right too, V. No artist is better than another imo. They just have different ways of expressing. Yours happens to be through writing. That's nice!

I didnt realize you were upset with me. Mostly because I wasnt aware that I did something to upset you.

My "hard-nosed Mars/Saturn side"? You are also a Capricorn rising my dear and have a Saturn too.

I like me. Yes, like most people, i'm strong, sweet and a bunch of things wrapped up into one. I dont pigeon-hole you. I understand you more than you probably realize I do. I think you react to me like your mother sometimes.

Don't take this the wrong way but I dont always trust your motives and your showboat-y ways. That is why I keep a wall up and you at a distance. I'm sensitive and I dont enjoy game-playing.

I know you arent the ruthless romantic showboater you come across as. I think you do that more for yourself than anyone else. I know that's only a fraction of you and you are complex like many people are. I accept people as they are and at this stage in my life, dont have the time or desire to change anyone or tell them how they should be living.

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I have thought long and hard about how I am living, and how it fits into the context of this society, and into the context of my personal truth, and I do not believe that I am shirking my true responsibilities.

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I dont either. I think you are where you need to be and doing what is right for you and I'm happy for you. Did you think I thought otherwise? Just because I have to live my life a certain way, doesnt mean everyone should follow suit. We all have different paths. I am very good at living and letting other people live how they know and chose, but you seem to fail to see that. I'm one of the least judgemental people you know. Hat's off to you. I think youre doing the best you know how, like me.

But I dont like it when you put me and others down because we live a certain way that you dont or have something against.

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I think that if you and I met outside of LL we would probably get along fine.

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Yeah, i'm pretty confident we would be fine friends. It's unlikely we would make a spectacle of ourselves by arguing and throwing fits like we have done here! lol

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Everyone who has met me (from LL) was surprised by how gentle, warm and sweet I am in person.

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I believe you. Same here. Well, I don't think the LL'ers I met were "surprised" but they all liked me.

So, you want to meet up? Youre only about a half hour / 45 minutes from here I think. Since I think of old-timer members like you as part of some weird web family, why not? I think it would be fun to meet my fellow dysfuntional brother Valus.

posted July 02, 2009 01:16 AM              

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Why would you take offense and think I was telling you to grow up. Do you think you need to grow up? Okay wait, I understand why you would, but that was not my intention.

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This, for instance. Who do you think you are kidding? Do I really have to think something about myself in order to suppose that someone else thinks it? Or, could it perhaps be that i have not been living under the ocean for the past thirty years, and I am well aware of what the popular opinion of a man in my situation is? Could it be that I am often judged and criticized in this way, and that I am empathic to other people's judgements of me, whether or not I agree with them? Can you understand that?

What I said to Yin about grown ups painting was intended ironically, and it was in response to the perceived insult from you. I thought you had called me a child because of my impatience with the medium, and so, it seemed funny to me to respond the same way to Yin (as if you would insult her the way you appeared to have insulted me). Of course, she knew I was only playing. My comment about exploring (bounce!) was just to suggest that we are not made for the same things.. And I dont mean that some of us are painters and some are writers, but, that some of us are Saturnian and some of us are Uranian; something like that. And I dont mean that one is better than the other. I just mean that, if you think we should all develop Saturnian traits, and/or that we are not grown up until we do, you are wrong.

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My "hard-nosed Mars/Saturn side"? You are also a Capricorn rising my dear and have a Saturn too.

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I didnt mention your rising sign. Yes, that is definitely a point of "equality". But, whether you mention this similarity or not, the difference remains. And the difference, as I pointed out, and as you know, has a lot to do with Mars, as it relates (or does not relate) to Saturn. Your Ascendant Ruler (in addition to dynamically aspecting your Sun) is conjunct your Mars. Your Saturn is clearly stronger, but, more importantly, your Mars is clearly "Saturnized", in a fixed sign. Compare this to a Sagittarian Mars conjunct Mercury in the 12th. No wonder you ignored it and put the focus on the Ascendant.

I dont know what you mean about not trusting my motives, but it makes me laugh. Do I really look like someone who hides things, lol? Do I look like someone who takes the long way around, or is afraid to say what he means and take the heat for it? Time after time, I've proven that I can and will fearlessly speak my truth on these boards, come what may. I honestly would like to know where, exactly, you suspect my motives.

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I accept people as they are and at this stage in my life, dont have the time or desire to change anyone or tell them how they should be living.

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Good for you. I'm a little different. I refuse to accept people's atrocities and believe my voice needs to be heard. There are lots of suffering people and animals who could use some understanding, and my Mercury in the 12th has the time, ability, and desire to speak on their behalf. I have faith that none of my words are wasted, and I've received enough feedback to know that I am provoking reflective attitudes in people, and even helping to change their behavior for the better. For me, this is not an instance of me being judgemental of anyone, since I don't blame them for the way they are. Rather, it is simply me standing up for what I believe in.

I dont know if you are sincere about meeting up. Certain things you've said lead me to doubt your sincerity, and I can imagine that you might make this offer just to save face here. I really hope you are not that sort of person, but I can't help my suspicious nature. In any case, it seems like an odd time to make the offer. I would think it makes sense to at least wait until this matter is resolved.

posted July 02, 2009 04:28 PM            

"The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." ~Alice Walker

I'd like to meet up with both of you someday, but probably not together. I like to keep things simple, and I don't understand why you guys have the interactions you do.