posted October 01, 2002 08:03 PM           

In my HUMBLE opinion, all the ideas (human ideas,our ideas) regarding "divinity" are just partial and imperfect perceptions of the "divine". Like this, all the gods and goddesses of the world would be nothing else but the aspects of only one Supreme Being- whatever is his/hers denomination - seen under HUMAN optics.

For me ,sometimes,one answer complete the other. None possess the real Truth, since none of us possesses that Truth, however we all have our truth, and this doesn't make the truth of the other less true.

I don't know if I'm making myself clear...

An example. If I ask : "What time is it now ?" All of you will look in your "pcs" and will give me a different hour because each one of us are in different Countrys ,even Continents. Therefore nobody is given me the wrong hour, just each one will give me his/her hour.

Each one of us has a different cultural,spiritual, social and psychological evolution.
Even so ,we continued being "His image and likeness ", the human species.

I would like immensly of continuing putting my questions in this topic - or any other that eventually can be created - in relation to the Bible, however, I find difficult to find an approach that allow me/us to avoid the subjects of faith. It worries me that my questions can seem disrespectful or even a blasphemy.

But how can we speak about the Bible without entering in interpretative theological considerations of the sacred texts?

If we spoke about any other book, we would have a limited historical research to the facts, but theological interpretations of the Bible will always be linked to religious aspect.

Or not ?
Maybe we should try !

Jakie

posted October 01, 2002 08:05 PM           

I hope everything it's ok !

posted October 02, 2002 09:48 AM           

I want to say that I would never say that my statements are "MY TRUTH", because I have not invented anything I´ve said. I simply transmit what I´ve found and considered interesting for me. Jesus was an excelent teacher, but he himself had been learning before teaching; he said: "My teaching is NOT my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:16).

If I´m not as good teacher as Jesus is, how can I say that my teaching is my own?

About the planets, they, of course, are not supernatural forces, but the way to discover them is not based on ancient technology already disappeared, although many investigators support that idea. Supporting it is only a way to deny higher creatures implicated in the matter. That´s why I said those men don´t believe in supernatural forces. And that´s why I told you that the explanation of ancient knowledge was going to be not great for you, and a little hard to understand.

I only wanna add this statement: all the biblical prophecies have to be fulfilled; they mostly have already become truth, the rest will become truth soon (not my teaching). The Bible is close to us. No book else is so close. Don´t lose the opportunity to know the explanation of actual situation, and the future prepared for obedient women and man. That´s why the Bible is the unique book everyone can easily reach. You all know that Hebrew culture and traditions are not too influential for whole mankind, but the Bible (written only by Jews) is available anywhere, an additional reason to read it.

posted October 02, 2002 06:37 PM           

Returning to our subject, I want to begin with a sentence that Bases Loaded wrote.
"...the Bible (written only by Jews) is available anywhere, an additional reason to read it."

Indeed they wrote the Tanach (or Tanakh) which is the Hebrew term for the Jewish Bible, also called the Hebrew Bible .The text of the Tanach is identical to the Protestant Canon of the Christian Old Testament...
...But they are not exactly the same work.

The Old Testament, transfers the great prophetic collection - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the twelve smaller prophets - from the middle to the end, leaving in the middle what we called books of silence - Job, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes and Esther.
Why the first Christians made that change ?...we will never know ...

There are also another significant difference.
In the beginning of the Old Testament, the Creator is called "God", in Tanach He is Elohim:
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Genesis 1
The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.
26 And "God" said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..
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In this narration He speaks for himself, but not about Him. He didn't say who He is or what intends and His words don't have intention of communicating anything to anybody, or to explain anything, but simply to ordain. The scene doesn't have a narrator and it was not presented as the vision of any prophet, but even so we are under a magnanimous God's impression. God that created.

But suddenly ,in Genesis,2;4 , without any explanation, as if we were under the impression of a second independent report, Elohim is substituted by Yahweh Elohim at The Tanach,and at the same time "God" is substituted by "Lord God" at the Old Testament.

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Genesis 2
Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-
7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

posted October 02, 2002 06:46 PM           

Genesis 2

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
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In the first report of the creation, something is ordered, but nothing is prohibited. Now, for the first time, a prohibition exists. It is imposed in the man's interest, but we can conjecture: if the man should dominate the earth (recalling the first action of the creation), why it is not allowed to him the knowledge of the good and evil?

It is not offered to man any reason why he must obeys, just one that doesn't make any sense.

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Genesis 3
The Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

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When the serpent says to Eve that,( the contradict to what Lord God said) she won't die if she eats of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, the serpent is telling the truth.

Who lied was not the serpent.
Ok, the serpent was the deceiving instrument for the couple's "spiritual" death. That is the classic theological interpretation of the "Man's fall", the " Original sin".

But in a second look of the text, the Creator of the serpent,"God", when reprehends her, reprehends Himself. What could be driven for the exterior in the polytheism, against a rival divinity, in the monotheism - even a monotheism that occasionally speaks in the first person of the plural - has to be transform in a regret returned for the interior of "Lord God ".

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Genesis 1

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Genesis 2

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

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"God" is masterfully powerful and generous ,but two pages later "Lord God" expel Adam and Eve of the Garden of Eden, without compassion, just because they didn't accomplish a commandment without sense.

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Genesis 3

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

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FOR ME , the original sin is not linked to the desire in itself or for itself, but to the knowledge of the own desire that generates the shame. The animals desire, but they don't know that , therefore they don't feel shame.

In MY interpretation, the two texts were not written by the same person - in this case Moses.
"Lord God" is "God". Two protagonists don't exist in this text, just one. Therefore ,it changed the narrator.
This is not a critic, I just like to know what others think about...

Jakie

posted October 02, 2002 06:50 PM           

"And when the END comes and GOD has
his say we are all going to stand there Dumbfounded... and say "Well thank you, it's about time someone gave us the real thing"(truth)

Jakie

posted October 03, 2002 10:09 AM         

Thank you for taking the ball and running with it!

posted October 03, 2002 04:58 PM           

In fact I found your comment spirituous.
That's why I put these at the end.

Jakie

posted October 03, 2002 05:16 PM           

The knowledge that make us grow,is never bad.

And to expel the "evil" in our heads,we must use the largest instrument of power that we have inside of us : our thought.

As the electricity, money and so other things that, in essence, are not good nor bad, our thought can open the doors of paradise or the one of the hell, in agreement with the use that we do of it.

The fact is that we are continually interacting with the cosmos, emitting and receiving vibrations, and like this, creating the experiences that we lived .

When taking conscience of the power of our thought, we conquest the key to open the doors that take to the accomplishment of our deeper desires.

If we have good thoughts and we stay in syntony with the vibratory currents loaded of positive energy, we became capable to accomplish the actions that will take us to happiness. If, to the opposite, we sheltered negative thoughts of envy, cruelty, critic, intolerance, for instance, our actions won't result in positive experiences.

The law of the syntony, as every spiritual law, cannot be accepted or understood, but nor for that it stops producing effects.

Take care
Jakie

posted October 03, 2002 05:21 PM           

But to have a good "game",it's necessary other players

posted October 03, 2002 09:33 PM           

Love and skyrockets,
katie

posted October 04, 2002 09:20 AM           

I´m really sorry, but this is going too far. A Christian is not here to fight as God´s defender. He himself will fight; the vengeance is His, not law´s. Katiebull, no law can exist without a legislator. The way some of you assume the facts shows you don´t believe the importance the Bible has for us. I, as a Christian, have to obey the biblical counsel, registered in Ephesians 6:12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms".

Jackie, your statement about two writers for Genesis is an old one suggested by the so called "high criticism" (I don´t know the real name in English), born two centuries ago (and disappeared, by the way). They said that the portions mentioning Elohim were written by one man, and the portions mentioning God, by other man. As if the same writer could not use both terms, like us when saying Lord some times and God some others. I like to use both, and Creator too, you know that, but I´m still the same Bases Loaded.

I cannot repeat every thing already said by other serious investigators against those critics. I have no time for that. You´ll have to research by yourself. This is becoming a combat, but a Christian (a true one) can´t fight against other human in any field.

Jackie, let me say this, please: what you told TheFajita is a very dangerous counsel, and shows again that you do not believe in the Bible. Peter said this: "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour". And you said that our mind is the unique responsible. That´s exactly what he wants we believe. I´ve said this before, but I´ll repeat it: a killer, a thief, etc, is always erasing his traces.

If anyone has a true desire of understanding the meaning of Genesis 3:15, quoted by Jackie, please post your inquire or send me an e-mail, and I will send through the way chosen by you what I´ve studied. I´m not saying "good bye", just showing that I´m not here to fight or change anyone´s viewpoint. If any of you have any doubt, I can offer my help. But if you say that your post shows your real thoughts, I won´t intend changing it by replying. I´m Jesus follower, not a crusader.

posted October 04, 2002 10:44 AM         

Biblically, it seems that "God" endowed Man with free will. Yet, in using this "free will", "God" says "I will greatly multiply your pain", and "in sorrow shall you eat the fruits of it all the days of your life".

This is not a very reasonable "God."

And I would truly appreciate it if someone could make sense out of this: After having given Moses the Commandments, among which are "Thou shalt not kill" - "thou shalt not steal" - and "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's [property]" - this so-called loving "God", in the words of Jim Marrs, "Jehovah ordered them to the lands of the Amorites, Hittites, Canaanites, and others to kill men, women, and children and take their lands and possessions." What kind of god is this? Not mine!

Sorry for being so harsh, but this is simply ridiculous.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself." This is all that matters.

posted October 04, 2002 10:45 AM           

You know, if a person came up to me, held up a menu from Pizza Hut, and said "This is the word of God!" , I guess I should believe him. And when I asked any kind of question, or gave any kind of opinion, he would quote to me the lunch specials and that should make sense to me and I should just forget that I have a mind and blindly follow him.
There are other "holy" works, also vehemently professed as God's word (the Kabbalah, the Koran, etc. etc.) Why shouldn't all works be God's word? How can someone use a quote from a book to verify that same book's validity? Why do some people think the Book of Mormon is an addition to the New Testament, and others laugh at it and call it false? What proof does anyone have?

I have thought about these things deeply, because I used to be a so-called "Christian". I am not a backslider. I have made my faith in our Creator fuller because of my mind's explorations. If I had stayed in the same mindset as I had been, I would be nothing but a cookie cutter Christian, acting a certain way so I could go to heaven. But now, I act the way that I AM, faults and everything, learning something new everyday, telling people what I know so they can be helped on their path. I no longer accuse people of shallowness to make myself higher up. I just figure that our Creator made us individuals, with highly capable minds. Then why pidgeon-hole us into one religion, with a highly subjective set of instruction? I don't profess to know all the answers, but I know that absolutely no one else has them either.

posted October 04, 2002 12:09 PM           

I have to say I feel the same way about you... You are not ready to be a teacher.
Especially if you are going to quit on the one's who want and need you to be here.

You have tried to defend the Bible, I don't think it is neccesary for anyone to do that.
If you are a true believer then you are here to prove us wrong,
Unfortunatley, many have proven the Bible to be wrong in many ways. Sceptic and religious men alike.
The Bible itself has done that in not so many words.
As I said before people take the quotes out of context... You quote things that were said to other people many many years ago that do not even apply to this day and age.

Here is the only example that I can think of right now... Sampson was told that his strength was in his hair,that if he cut it his strength would be no more.
Some religions beleive this to be true for everyone. "you have angels in your hair and no-one can harm you,and no bad things can happen to you if it is long" That is what I was told by a person once Who was a "holy roller" pardon the expresion please, but that is what she was... All I could say to this person is "I KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE BECAUSE I HAVE HAD MY HAIR DOWN TO MY WAIST FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS, AND IF THAT WAS TRUE THEN I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD SO MANY PROBLEMS
AND SO MUCH HEART RENCHING PAIN IN THE PAST
TWO YEARS"
I feel like some people take the Bible too literal. And I really would NOT like it if God did say to kill for any reason, except to defend yourself from death by some one else's hand.
Also If the Bible is true in every word then explain this.
BAD people get more than good people.
I am not the Poorest but I am defenatly not rich. Yet I obey all of the commandments.

posted October 04, 2002 12:15 PM           

Ra, There´s no way to help you to understand the purpose of the Bible. Therefore all the questions you posted lately have their answers in only one verse: 1 Kings 22:25.

posted October 04, 2002 01:07 PM           

In first place, I would like to make clear that I believe in God.
But this God that is described in the Old Testament, reveals so much human characteristics that I admit that I have some difficulties in believing.
Why God created the world?
And why, for such fragile reasons, destroy it so soon ?

Lord God, FOR ME ,acts in fact as a human creature.
In the first report of the creation, the Creator's relationship with the creature doesn't have to do with obedience.
God was powerful, but He was also generous and magnanimous. Less than two pages later, Lord God, possesses an anger as big as his generosity.
For Lord God, everything depends on the obedience to His commandment.

I don't discuss the existence of God, nor I intend to do an autopsy of the Bible page by page, but it is unquestionable that the inconsistencies can be find in the details.

I have some examples:
How many animals should Noah take in the ark ?
The version of God speaks about twenty of each type (Genesis 6:19); the version of Lord (now the history is told twice, and refers to God and Lord) speaks about seven equal of the pure ones and a pair of the impure ones (7:2).

Although Lord God have put the man in the garden of the Eden " to plant and to take care ", we can notice an inclination no agricultural in the fact that He had chosen the offering of Abel.

The God of the Old Testament is the Creator and at the same time the destructor and all of us know about the enormous difference that exists between paternity and murder.

As for Abraham - after the fifth fecundity promise, an order that he and his descendants went circumcised ( one practices until then ignored ) and the verification that starting from that moment he and Sarah had other names – he fell face in the ground and laughed.
It's not me who affirms, it's in the Bible.

Genesis 17:17
Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

Why Abraham laughed?
It's not difficult to imagine…

Later, (Genesis 18) God appears to Abraham in the three men's form – at this time, for many people, the citation " to our image " can be understood literally– and He did for the sixth time the same fecundity promise, this time is Sarah who laughs.
Later God arrives in Sodom in the two men's form.
And this God, creator / destructor, annihilates Sodom and Gomorrah.

That without speaking in the test that Abraham was submitted when he had to take his son for sacrifice, just to prove his obedience to God.
Since then, God, with His several denominations, interferes in extremely mundane subjects: who will be fertile, or not, for example.

Further on, in a bet with Satan, God allows him to destroy the life of Job, just to prove to Satan that Job feared the Lord.

Then I ask to MYSELF : Which is the message of God after all in the Old Testament ?
" You should fear me, you should obey me and you should respect me or I will destroy you !"

So, God, the Creator of everything ,possess just this message for His creatures?

I apologize if I am offending somebody, but For Me this is the correct sentence:
"The Old Testament created God our image and likeness "

When they asked Carl Jung if he believed in God, his answer was :
" I don't believe. I know !"
I make mine Jung's words.

Jakie

posted October 04, 2002 01:11 PM           

First of all,I would like to say to you that I don't belong to any team.
What I said to theFajita is exactly what ''''I'''' believe and I don't see that I am going against the teachings of the Bible.

As we have free will - and I strongly believe that we have - we always have the option, to do or not ,the evil or the good, and of course everything will depend on our will and our will is a product of our thought.
So...

Unlike you, I accept that anyone can be opposed to what I believe, after all, as a great friend use to say:" If I'm not criticized, how I can develop , how can I grow ?"

I'm not doing a manifest against the Bible, I just put my point of view and I accept any reply to it without being offended, after all I don't possess the monopoly of the truth.
I think there was a bad understanding of your part because in any moment I mentioned Genesis 3:15.

You said :" I'm a Jesus follower, not a crusader."
In this point we totally agree .
I believe and I follow Jesus because when we spoke about Him, everything changes.
His message was of peace, love, tolerance and pardon.
He accepted and loved his fellow creatures without judges them.
Jesus was coherent from beginning to the end.
FOR ME ,He was THE Great Master.

Sorry if I offended you,it was not may intention. I just thought that in a free forum we could discuss and share our considerations about The Bible,wich is endeed a great book, but not the only one.

Take care
Jakie