posted September 27, 2004 08:27 PM         

Actually people just come to know when they meet their soul mate. All others as Jesus said are bonds of straw.

The ways of men interferes in the ways of God and you are right we all commit sin and fall short of Glory.

I haven't seen a perfect person in this world at this age. The only one I know of is Mother Theresa.

They say not even in dreams should you think about lust. This early morning in a dream, I could see thoughts coming to my head. Crystallised. Its so funny, it came one after the other; four of them in color and I resisted it. I burst it like a bubble.

I guess I am in the process of perfecting myself.

posted September 27, 2004 08:52 PM         

Transforming Sex into Love
by Osho

It is sexual energy that transforms into love. Humans have been set up against their own energy. On the surface, human beings are taught to support the dropping of all conflicts, all fights, all struggles. But deep down they are essentially being taught to fight: "The mind is poison, so fight against it." And on the surface we are asked to drop all conflicts! The very teachings that are the basis of man’s inner conflict ask him to drop conflict! On one hand, drive people mad, and on the other, open asylums to treat them. On one hand spread the germs of sickness, and on the other build hospitals to treat the sick.

It is very important to understand one thing in this context. Human beings can never be separated from sex. Sex is the very source of one’s life; one is born out of it. Existence has accepted the energy of sex as the starting point of creation, and your holy men call it sinful… something that existence itself does not consider a sin! And if you think of God as the creator, and if God considers sex to be a sin, then there is no greater sinner than God in this world, no greater sinner than God in this universe.

All life, all expression, all flowering is basically sex energy. And it is against this sex energy that religions and cultures are pouring poison into the minds of human beings. They are trying to engage human beings in a fight against it. They have entangled people in this battle against their own basic energy, so they have become wretched, pathetic, devoid of love, false, nobodies.

One has not to fight with sex, but to create a friendship with it, and elevate the stream of life to the heights.

If lust is transformed, sex can become love. It is only sexual energy that flowers into the energy of love.

But we have filled humans with antagonism toward sex, and the result is that not only has love not flowered in them– because love is an evolution beyond sexual energy, and can come only through acceptance of it– but their minds have become more and more sexual because of the opposition to sex. All our songs, all our poetry, all our art and paintings, all our temples and the statues in them have directly or indirectly become centered around sex. Our minds revolve around sex. No animal in the world is sexual like human beings are. Human beings are sexual around the clock– awake or asleep, sitting or walking, sex has become everything to them. Because of the enmity toward sex, because of this opposition and suppression, it has become like an ulcer to their being.

One cannot be free from something that is the very root of one’s life. But in the process of this constant inner conflict, one’s entire life can become sick– and it has. Your so-called religions and cultures are basically responsible for the excessive sexuality that is so evident in humankind. It is not "bad people" but "good people" and saints who are responsible for this. Until the entire human race frees itself from this wrongdoing by religious leaders and "good people," there is no possibility of the birth of love.

I want to say to you that sex is godly. The energy of sex is divine energy, godly energy. That is why this energy creates new life. It is the greatest, most mysterious force of all.

Drop this antagonism toward sex. If you ever want love to shower in your life, renounce this conflict with sex. Accept sex blissfully. Acknowledge its sacredness. Acknowledge its benediction.
Go on searching deeper and deeper into it, and you will be amazed that the more you accept sex with a quality of sacredness, the more sacred it will become. And the more you are in conflict with it, as if it were something sinful and dirty, the more sinful and ugly it will become.

From Sex Matters, Osho

posted September 27, 2004 10:32 PM         

Jesus had a different mission on earth. He wanted us to experience his divine love and therefore conquered his carnal desire of sex. Imagine if he married a woman. That would leave a hole in the cup filled with love. What a waste. His love would have missed reaching some beings in that case.

We are ordinary humans. Everyone is called for different reasons. Eunuchs who has no desire for sex has a purpose too on this planet. Who are we to judge others. Leave it to God.

The bottomline is let not your lower self (emotions, desires, lust) overtake the higer self.

posted September 27, 2004 11:39 PM         

I strongly disagree that "if Jesus married a woman, that would leave a hole in the cup filled with love. His love would have missed reaching some beings in that case."

True unconditional love has no bounderies. By him marrying a woman, that would limit his love? His love would have missed reaching some beings? No. I dont think so. Love begets love. It never stops growing or surrounding us all.

And Osho does not promote adultery. To know this you would have to look into him more. But without a fully open mind and heart, it wouldnt matter.

I dont want to change anything you believe in. I just wanted to throw my two cents in here.

posted September 28, 2004 01:58 AM         

The above quoted piece is from his book "Sex Matters". A book I havent even read by him yet but plan on picking up. Another good one is: "From Sex to Superconciousness". I have learned so much from his teachings and I think he should be required reading for everyone. His messages are that important. If you are looking for a 'centered, helpful and spiritual read', look no further. His books are life changing.

His teachings are similar to so many of the great Masters before him - it's the same song sung to different tunes. When you read something that contains Truth, you Know.

Here's the link to my thread awhile back which has a good link to one of his sites.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/003385.html

here's a good one I just found that I'll have to explore later:
http://www.otoons.com/sex/sexOtoons.htm

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/brianperkins77/107osho.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/brianperkins77/107osho.htm[/URL]</A>

http://www.oshoworld.com/index.asp

Enjoy!!!

posted September 28, 2004 02:18 AM         

You said, "Who are we to judge others. Leave it to God." We are not to judge others. And the God I believe in does not judge us. Each one of us is God. My God is not an angry, judgemental, unforgiving, mean God.

I don't know if you've ever read any of the Conversations With God books by Neale Donald Walsh, but you might want to check them out. Very good reads.

I am pasting here, a few things I have found from the books. I'd like to know your thoughts on it. If you take the time to read all of it.

Excerpt from "Conversations with God" Book 1
by Neale Donald Walsch

God said:

"The religionists would have you believe that I created you as less than Who I Am so that you could have the chance to become Who I Am, working against all odds--and, I might add, against every natural tendency I am supposed to have given you.

Among these so-called natural tendencies is the tendency to sin. You are taught that you were born in sin, that you will die in sin, and that sin is your nature.

One of your religions even teaches.....there is only one way to heaven (salvation) and that is through no undertaking of your own, but through the grace granted you by God through acceptance of His Son as your intermediary.

Once this is done you are "saved." Until it is done, nothing that you do--not the life you live, not the choices you make, not anything you undertake of your own will in effort to improve yourself or render you worthy--has any effect, bears any influence. You are incapable of rendering yourself worthy, because you are inherently unworthy. You were created that way.

Why? God only knows. Perhaps He made a mistake. Perhaps He didn't get it right. Maybe he wishes He could have it all to do over again. But there it is. What to do..."

Neale said:

"You're making mock of me."

God said:

"No. You are making mock of Me. You are saying that I, God, made inherently imperfect beings, then have demanded of them to be perfect or face damnation. You are saying then that, somewhere several thousand years into the world's experience, I relented, saying that from then on you didn't necessarily have to be good, you simply had to feel bad when you were not being good, and accept as your savior the One Being who could always be perfect, thus satisfying My hunger for perfection. You are saying that My Son--who you call the One Perfect One--has saved you from your own imperfection--the imperfection I gave you.

In other words, God's Son has saved you from what His Father did.

This is how you--many of you--say I've set it up.

Now who is mocking whom?

No one else will judge you ever, for why, and how, could God judge God's own creation and call it bad? If I wanted you to be and do everything perfectly, I would have left you in the state of total perfection whence you came. The whole point of the process was for you to discover yourself, create your Self, as you truly are--and as you truly wish to be. Yet you could not be that unless you also had a choice to be something else.

Should I therefore punish you for making a choice that I Myself have laid before you? If I did not want you to make the second choice, why would I create other than the first?

This is a question you must ask yourself before you would assign Me the role of a condemning God."
____________________________________________
God said:

"Everything your heart experiences about God tells you that God is good. Everything your teachers teach you about God tells you God is bad. Your heart tells you God is to be loved without fear. Your teachers tell you God is to be feared, for He is a vengeful God. You are to live in fear of God's wrath, they say. You are to tremble in His presence. Your whole life through you are to fear the judgment of the Lord. For the lord is "just," you are told. And God knows, you will be in trouble when you confront the terrible justice of the Lord. You are, therefore, to be "obedient" to God's commands. Or else.

Above all, you are not to ask such logical questions as, "if God wanted strict obedience to His Laws, why did He create the possibility of those Laws being violated?" Ah, your teachers tell you--because God wanted you to have "free choice." Yet what kind of choice is free when to choose one thing over the other brings condemnation? How is "free will" free when it is not your will, but someone else's, which must be done? Those who teach you this would make a hypocrite of God.

You are told that God is forgiveness, and compassion--yet if you do not ask for this forgiveness in the "right way," if you do not "come to God" properly, your plea will not be heard, your cry will go unheeded. Even this would not be so bad if there were only one proper way, but there are as many "proper ways" being taught as there are teachers to teach them.

Most of you, therefore, spend the bulk of your adult life searching for the "right" way to worship, to obey, and to serve God. The irony of all this is that I do not want your worship, I do not need your obedience, and it is not necessary for you to serve Me.

These behaviors are the behaviors historically demanded of their subjects by monarchs--usually ego-maniacal, insecure, tyrannical monarchs at that. They're not Godly demands in any sense--and it seems remarkable that the world hasn't by now concluded that the demands are counterfeit, having nothing to do with the needs or desires of Deity.

Deity has no needs. All That is exactly that: all that is. It therefore wants, or lacks, nothing--by definition.

If you choose to believe in a God who somehow needs something--and has such hurt feelings if He doesn't get it that He punishes those from whom He expected to receive it--then you choose to believe in a God much smaller than I. You truly are Children of a Lesser God."
___________________________________________
Neale said:

Why would [anyone] want do deny You?

God said:

"Because you are afraid. And because My promises are too good to be true. Because you cannot accept the grandest Truth. And so you must reduce yourself to a spirituality which teaches fear and dependence and intolerance, rather than love and power and acceptance.

You are filled with fear--and your biggest fear is that My biggest promise might be life's biggest lie. And so you create the biggest fantasy you can to defend yourself against this: You claim that any promise which gives you the power, and guarantees you the love, of God must be the false promise of the devil. God would never make such a promise, you tell yourself, only the devil would--to tempt you into denying God's true identity as the fearsome, judgmental, jealous, vengeful and punishing entity of entities.

Even though this description better fits the definition of a devil (if there were one), you have assigned devilish characteristics to God in order to convince yourself not to accept the God-like promises of your Creator, or the God-like qualities of Self.

Such is the power of fear."

posted September 28, 2004 02:24 AM         

The following excerpt is from "Conversations with God",
Book 1, pp.205-208, By Neale Donald Walsch

Question by Neale: Is sex okay? C'mon--what is the real story behind this human experience. Is sex purely for procreation, as some religions say? Is true holiness and enlightenment achieved through denial--or transmutation--of the sexual energy. Is it okay to have sex without love. Is just the physical sensation of it okay enough as a reason?

God: Of course it's "okay." Again, if I didn't want you to play certain games, I wouldn't have given you the toys. Do you give your children things you don't want them to play with?

Play with sex. play with it! It's wonderful fun. Why, it's just about the most fun you can have with your body, if you're talking of strictly physical experiences alone.

But for goodness sake, don't destroy sexual innocence and pleasure and the purity of the fun, the joy, by misusing sex. Don't use it for power, or hidden purpose; for ego gratification or domination; for any purpose other than the purest joy and the highest ecstasy, given and shared--which is love, and love recreated -- which is new life! Have I not chosen a delicious way to make more of you?

With regard to denial, I have dealt with this before. Nothing holy has ever been achieved through denial. Your desires change as even larger realities are glimpsed. It is not unusual, therefore, for people to simply desire less, or even, no sexual activity--or for that matter, any of a number of activities of the body. For some, the activities of the soul become foremost--and by far the most pleasurable.

Each to his own, without judgment--that is the motto. The end of your question is answered this way: You don't need to have a reason for anything. Just be cause.

Be the cause of your experience.

Remember, experience produces concept of Self, conception produces creation, creation produces experience.

You want to experience yourself as a person who has sex without love? Go ahead! You'll do that until you don't want to anymore. And the only thing that will--could ever--cause you to stop this, or any, behavior, is your newly emerging thought about Who You Are.

It's as simple--and as complex--as that.

Neale: Why did you make sex so good, so spectacular, so powerful a human experience if all we are to do is stay away from it as much as we can? What gives? For that matter, why are all fun things either "immoral, illegal or fattening"?

God: I've answered the end of this question too, with what I've just said. All fun things are not immoral, illegal, or fattening. Your life is, however, an interesting exercise in defining what fun is.

To some, "fun" means sensations of the body. To others, "fun" may be something entirely different. It all depends on who you think you are, and what you are doing here.

There is much more to be said about sex than is being said here--but nothing more essential than this: sex is joy, and many of you have made sex everything but.

Sex is sacred, too--yes. But joy and sacredness do mix (they are in fact the same thing), and many of you think they do not.

Your attitudes about sex form a microcosm of your attitudes of life. Life should be a joy, a celebration, and it has become an experience of fear, anxiety, "not enough-ness," rage, and tragedy. The same can be said about sex.

You have repressed sex, even as you have repressed life, rather than fully Self expressing, with abandon and joy.

You have shamed sex as you have shamed life, calling it evil and wicked, rather than the highest gift and the greatest pleasure.

Before you protest that you have not shamed life, look at your collective attitudes about it. Four-fifths of the world's people consider life a trial, a tribulation, a time of testing, a karmic debt that must be paid, a school with harsh lessons that must be learned, and, in general, an experience to be endured while awaiting the real joy, which is after death.

It is a shame that so many of you think this way. Small wonder you have applied shame to the very act which creates life.

The energy which underscores sex is the energy which underscores life; which is life! The feeling of attraction and the intense and often urgent desires to move toward each other, to become one, is the essential dynamic of all that lives. I have built it into everything. It is inbred, inherent, inside All That Is.

The moral codes, religious restrictions, social taboos, and emotional conventions you have placed around sex (and, by the way, around love--and all of life) have made it virtually impossible for you to celebrate your being.

From the beginning of time all man has ever wanted is to love and be loved. And from the beginning of time man has done everything in his power to make it impossible to do that. Sex is an extraordinary expression of love--love of another, love of self, love of life. You ought to therefore love it (And you do-you just can't tell anyone you do; you don't dare show how much you love it, or you'll be called a pervert. Yet this is the idea that is perverted.)

In our next book, we shall look at sex much more closely; explore its dynamics in greater detail, for this is an experience and an issue of sweeping implications on a global scale.

For now--and for you, personally--simply know this: I have given you nothing shameful, least of all your very body, and its functions. There is no need to hide your body or its functions--nor your love of them, and of each other.

Your television programs think nothing of showing naked violence, but shrink from showing naked love. Your whole society reflects that priority."

posted September 28, 2004 02:03 PM         

Cool! Take your time. I am really interested in your thoughs though. Not to get into a debate, just genuinely interested.

God made so many different kinds of people. Why would he allow only one way to serve him? ~Martin Buber

Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair. ~G.K. Chesterton

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. ~Richard Burton

Men will wrangle for religion; write for it; fight for it; die for it; anything but live for it. ~C.C. Colton

Everyday people are straying away from the church and going back to God. ~Lennie Bruce, The Essential Lennie Bruce, 1972

We are punished by our sins, not for them. ~Elbert Hubbard

posted September 28, 2004 02:46 PM         

To really understand the story, lets assume I am the elder brother. You are the younger brother or the prodigal son who returns. And lets say the Father - Mother is God.

(YOU MAY READ NOW AND RETURN THIS POINT LATER....)
You may then read again reversing the roles, lets say I am the son and you are the elder brother. Also, forget about the son squandering money and not heeding the parents. Lets say he is beautiful both inside and outside. Never hurt a soul. He believes in polygamy. He does not believe in adultery. One day he caught a STD disease( and may die soon).
When you come to know and meet me first time what will you tell me? Won't you say, you may be sick outside, but inside you are beautiful? Won't you?

posted September 28, 2004 08:00 PM         

Thank you for that story. You said "to really understand the story...."
I understood the story fully. It was a simple story and I dont see it being hard for anyone to be able to understand. Quite simply it is saying that the 'Father's' (God's) door is never closed. Which I agree with. God never closes his door to any of us, no matter what so called 'sins' we have made in our lives.

To me, if we were going to assume, that either one of us, was one of the brothers. I would think you would fit the older brother who was 'good' and wasnt a 'profligate'. I'd be the 'bad' brother (only in certain "people's" eyes/lies). I dont know enough about you, remember we are just 'assuming here, but it seems like you would react like the older brother did to how the Father welcomed his brother back with open arms after he had lived the life of a 'sinner'.

I'm not quite sure where you are trying to go with changing the story around so that the son instead, has an STD. Well, yeah so what? To me that would be the same as someone having Cancer or any other disease. My beliefs on bodily diseases and thier roots are very different than the norm. Every disease that man 'gets' is by choice. He may not realize he has made that choice. But our lives and everything in them are all there by our own choices. Our Higher Self gives us everything, good and bad, to help us learn the lessons we need to learn in this lifetime. We are constantly in communication with our 'Higher Self' to bring to us every situation we need to rise or better ourselves on our path - learn the lessons we need to - or not, and keep creating circumstances in our lives that ask us to learn once again until we do. Although sometimes we dont think we know why things are the way they are, we have always made the choice for them to be that way. Even if only unconsciously.

I am 'assuming' that you think God gives people diseases like STD's if they commit sins like adultery. I dont believe this to be so. If an STD erupted in someone, it would be, in part, from thier own guilty feelings of an act they felt guilty or bad about. That person's S-elf is trying to wake them up to something. It is not a punishment.

When humans ignore themS-elves, they always get re-minded. And in many different ways. We chose to listen, remember - or not.

We are Gods. God is not someone outside of us. He is not sitting up in the clouds marking down every time we commit a 'sin'. The only God you have to answer to is the one within.

I'm not quite sure if you read what I posted. If you did you'd have a clearer understanding of where I come from. You said, "Taurus,
Made nice readings." and then in the next post you said, "OK as you answer this let me read your stuff and answer it." It doesnt matter to me if you read it or not. And I'm not looking for answers. But to have a clear understanding of where I come from you might want to. Either way an question I could ever ask is one that can be answered within.

Ultimately we are headed in the same direction. Just taking different paths to get there. My way might not be 'right' for you and vice versa. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way. Only, The Way.

So, to answer your quesion, "When you come to know and meet me first time what will you tell me? Won't you say, you may be sick outside, but inside you are beautiful? Won't you?"
I would greet you as I would any other soul on this planet. With an open mind and heart, not judging you just because you have a 'Dis-Ease'. I would wish you every good thing this world has to offer. Because you are my brother. You are me and I am you. We are God and we are One.

posted September 29, 2004 12:18 AM         

The earlier readings were good quotes and hold good for a traditional church. I agree, the priests and early days government are responsible for the state of church it is in. Just like you said, lets not judge anyone. No ones perfect. They are doing a commendable job of social justice. A new era the age of acquarius has begin. The reason I say this is because Jesus is quoted about his second coming saying "wait for a sign of man carrying pitcher in the sky". I heard of woman carrying pitcher not man. May be some astrology pundits can clarify here. , more work will be done in this age, by the Christ spirit. Just await it. Christ will lead us to the Universal Church. He did also mention he is seding to us a great comforter. She will speak to us in detail about our inner lifes.

Also the latter reading from Neales conversation with God, made me feel that he has touched on divine wisdom with a grain of earthly salt. So I really could not buy that at the stage of Journey I am in.

I think the sacrifises the christ spirit has made so far is the reason why me and you see this day. Imagine if our ancestors engaged in sex like the dogs on the streets. What kind of future their sons and daughters would have had.

Adultery to me is breaking the heart(in which a God dwell) of the one you are married to. The Gods will bring justice to her cries. A human who does no right has to go and correct it himself. This is so that he pays of his debt.

To everybody:

The Father God in me speaks:

"I have created you and placed you higher than the beasts and trees. Your selfishness is not tolerated even by beasts and trees.

Many a times I wanted to send you in exile, cut you and throw you off. Just like how a farmer chops the bad branches of the tree and throws it in fire so that the tree may bear fruit. My son (the tree) endures it all. The branches are you. When the branch rots, I have to chop it so the tree does not die. Bear fruit therefore. When a branch dies, it is a loss for the tree.
My sons love for you is so great he does not want the branches to rot, he wants each to live. What did you give in return, you broke his bones and hung him on a tree? I will not forget, what you have done, now is the time change your ways. Be selfless as my son is and enjoy everlasting peace."

The Son-God head in me speaks:
"How can you come to me with the baggage of your desires and ego of lower self. Haven't I told you in the scriptures, the door to the kingdom is narrow. You have to leave your hoarded wealth behind."

Law of God:

"The law of God is written on the rock of Right; and Justice wrote the law, and Mercy was the pen"

You are right each is made in image of God and is different. The creators of men are the seven archangels who created them. They say 2 of them are evil. I say how can Gods creation be evil. When I contemplate I am told it is the inharmony in them that causes negative things in human.

Will let you know when I find out, how to recognize those 2 elements we humans recognize as bad.

posted September 29, 2004 01:59 AM         

I dont believe in adultery. I dont believe in marriage either. I dont believe in good or evil. And I am not an athiest nor am I a thiest. I bet this makes no sense to you. But it is too much to explain here and I dont think you want to hear it anyway. I hope that doesnt sound rude. But I dont feel we have anymore to discuss here. I am not looking for answers from anyone either, just sharing my beliefs.

You said:
"You are right each is made in image of God and is different."
(but I didnt say that )

What I said was:
"We are Gods."

And I will also say:
There is no God, but there IS Godliness.
God is NOT a person he is a realization.
God is not somebody to be encountered. It is your own purified consciousness.

posted September 29, 2004 12:34 PM         

I'm not good with words, so I'm always immensely relieved when I find something that rhymes with my mind.

posted September 29, 2004 01:05 PM         

I meant to say that we humans mind is so limited we cannot comprehend the unlimited.
I was explaining in terms of objects for better explanation. Appears you are little higher than ordinary humans of the statements you made.

I agree with you, we all have the divine spark in us, and each can be greater than Jesus. But we have to conquer this maya(illusion) world.

Its also that, we all need a guru to take us across the stream. They are like big passenger ships. You can do it alone it but takes lots of effort.

I Wonder if everything is hidden from Humans because the Gods are jealous
But jealously is human nature, that can't be.

Well, I hit on something interesting today as I was pondering your questions. I am much surprised of what I learn but first I must meditate on it or even take a trip. I will explain later. Heh I don't feel what you say its rude. Its good to bounce ideas isn't it.

Talking of passion, I read a hindu mythology about how the Father - God which I think is Shiva fell in love with Mohini, the female form of Vishnu (the second God head of hindu mythology).

Details: http://members.aol.com/sabrin1315/mohini.htm

Love.

posted September 29, 2004 09:39 PM         

About my earlier posts. I think we cannot be Jesus nor he be us. We can do works that he did or even greater, if we realize the God in us and that God is in tune with the God.

We have to realize that the elements of nature(air, fire, water, space,earth) were made for Man and not the other way.