posted April 17, 2006 11:03 PM              

I hope you didnt have to copy that all out, though.

posted April 19, 2006 02:32 AM            

Do you really believe in the ultimate truth? I think else where you posted of absolute bliss when we return to oneness?
Is that what you were speaking of?
Do you believe in one Source?

I am not sure what your actual beliefs are as you seem to encompass most beliefs that takes one to different paths in my mind.
Remember the fibonacci series? Infinite in one way and infinite in the other direction.
Will they ever catch up with each other?

posted April 19, 2006 12:21 PM              

Have not had time to post lately...been very, very busy with family as you know. But I wanted to tell you that I truly loved what you posted on Diogenes. My kind of guy!!!

Regarding honesty, I did some Googling on the subject the other evening and I came across a book that I would like to get on the subject of Radical Honesty, actually there are two books and I may get both. Thought you might like those books as well as others here.

Anyway, first this is the Wikipedia definition of honesty which I concur with:

Honesty is the human quality of communicating with a truthful, direct, and complete intent, as best one is able. It is related to truth as a value.

Superficially, honesty means simply, stating facts and views as best one truly believes them to be. It includes both honesty to others, and to oneself (see: self-deception) and about ones own motives and inner reality.

Hence, one cannot refuse to consider factual information in an unbiased manner and still claim that one's knowledge (or belief) is to the best of their ability--or in anyway complete---but instead such a belief is clearly a product of one's desires and simply has nothing to do with the human ability to know. Basing one's positions on what one wants --rather than unbiased evidence gathering ---is dishonest even when good intentions can be cited--after all even Hitler could cite good intentions and intended glory for a select group of white people. Clearly then, an unbiased approach to the truth is a requirement of honesty.

Because intentions are closely related to fairness and certainly affect the degree of honesty/dishonesty, there is a wide spread confusion about honesty--combined with a general belief that being dishonest means that one admits it to themselves. Socrates had much to say about truth, honesty and morality, and explained that if people thoroughly understood that their behavior was wrong --then they simply wouldn't do it--- by definition. Unfortunately, honesty in the western tradition has been marginalized to specific instances --perhaps because a thorough understanding of honesty collides with ideologies of all types, since ideologies and idealism exaggerate and suppress evidence in order to support their perspectives-- at the expense of the truth. This process erodes the practice and understanding of honesty. To an ideologist the truth becomes insignificant, only their ideals(desires) matter.

We are all inherently biased about what we believe is good because of our backgrounds, but once one understands that a decidedly biased approach to knowledge & belief (or what one holds to be TRUE) is inherently dishonest, one can also understand how idealism and ideology have poorly served the quest for an honest, moral society. Both honesty and morality require of us to base our biased ideas & beliefs about what is good --- upon unbiased ideas of what is TRUE ----rather than vice versa--the way all ideologies would have us believe.

posted April 19, 2006 12:25 PM              

What is Radical Honesty?

Radical Honesty is a kind of communication that is direct, complete, open and expressive. Radical Honesty means you tell the people in your life what you've done or plan to do, what you think, and what you feel. It's the kind of authentic sharing that creates the possibility of love and intimacy.

The practice of Radical Honesty is based on the work and writings of Dr. Brad Blanton, a psychologist who found that the best way to reduce stress, make life work, and heal the past was to tell the truth.

What's in it for me?

People who practice Radical Honesty have healthy, free, powerful and joyful lives. Lying and protecting your image takes a heavy toll on your health and relationships. Telling the truth is less destructive than lying.

The Heart of Radical Honesty

The heart of the message of Radical Honesty is that we can come to recognize each other as beings in common. We do this by being honest and by demanding honesty from others. This is the fundamental faith of both Radical Honesty and it's corollary religion, Futilitarianism. The inspiring thing that we know from experience, however, is that beings who relate as beings, one to another, can work out the problems that come from having minds and personalities and cultural and religious and traditional differences, since those differences are all ******** anyway! We can change how we live together by acknowledging the being we are, (nothing mysterious or mystical—just the sensate being in the body), as the universal context in which the mind occurs. We recognize each other as alike. One pathetic, mind-controlled, culturally conditioned pitiful sonofabitch, anywhere in the world, looks just about like another. Underneath all that confusing and alienating ******** we are beings in common. Futilitarianism is about the futility of any belief whatsoever.

Who I am, is a present-tense, noticing being, and the idea of me—my case history and culture and values and beliefs—is secondary to my fundamental identity as a noticing, present-tense being. I can see, at the same time, that this is true for everyone else. I relate to everyone else as equals in this way. I relate to these fellow beings by being true to my own experience. This being-to-being relatedness is what allows me to make compassionate, collective decisions with my fellow cripples—I mean human beings.

Usually, our minds are distractions from the truth of experience. But once grounded in the truth of experience in the moment, our minds become useful as toys to play with. What we play with is the future. We imagine a future together and how we might make it happen. We are the same in that way, even though we may be different in every other way. As noticing beings, we are all pretty much the same, so there is nothing left to do but be and do. Like Frank Sinatra said, “Do-be-do-be-do.” Out of being you just do what you think you would like to do and what is in front of you to do. That always includes doing something for, as well as with, your fellow beings. That is so dumb and simple that if you think about it you miss it altogether! That's why we say that what we teach in our Radical Honesty workshops is how to get dumb. We all need to get dumber, not smarter. We need to focus on noticing like a village idiot.

Belonging to an ongoing honest community of support among dumb ***** full of belief in all kinds of horseshit, but seriously doubting it all in common, while being grounded in being—makes for a hell of a community! It's mind-boggling! Hilarious!

How many Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb? Three. One to change the bulb. One to not change the bulb. One to neither change the bulb nor not change the bulb! But he’s laughing his ass off at the time!

Losing faith in the ******** machine of our minds and the ******** machine of our culture seems to be the best fundamental source for creating and modifying the structures of the mind and of the culture. We Futilitarians still have many conventional thoughts about what is right and wrong, good and bad, beautiful and ugly, but we can value these with a little detachment because they are not our identity. These thoughts are just the ******** we navigate with because it was the best thing our poor dumb-assed ancestors had to offer us. And when these thoughts have served their purpose, like paper plates or napkins or toilet paper, we throw them away! We hold these truths to be secondary! They are possibly useful now and then but not really important enough to save forever. They reside within the primary context of the self (not the self image, not the traditional “self”) but the being, the witness to, the world and the mind. This self, just the sensate noticing machine, is that which is the creator of the world by perceiving. The mind is smaller than the self, and fits in there quite nicely. We sentient beings come from the world and create the world as we know it with our senses, effortlessly.

Knowing that who we are is the noticer or that which creates by noticing means that each of us begins to identify our real self in the same way—as a context within which the world occurs and within which all of one’s thoughts occur, as well. So we can work with the world, with other people, and with our thoughts about them, without attachment. And we know they are just like us, and can’t find their ***** with both hands when they are in their minds in the sleep that comes from forgetting who they really are.

This change of identity from case history to the context of being is called transformation. The transformation is from victim to creator. Larger social transformation is possible because of individuals who have undergone transformations from victim to creator joining up with each other and becoming co-creators.

Futilitarianism is transformative! We have already given up! We know it’s all futile and think those who don’t think that are hilarious! We believe all the victim stories! And we do what we can to elaborate on them! We say, “You bet you’re a victim! And not only in the ways you say! It’s even worse! Did you ever consider this? ” We offer upgrades from depression to despair! One pathetic seeker (There’s a seeker born every minute!) helps another by truly listening and commiserating and elaborating on the story!

We Used to Play Like This
When We Were Children
We human beings can create intimate families among ourselves through radical honesty. By identifying with being, and loving the being of others as well as ourselves (which we naturally do), we start a different kind of conversation. We end up developing deep democracy and co-intelligent strategies for success in caring for each other, using our minds, because it is more fun and natural to do out of our relatedness.

In the Radical Honesty community, we have done this co-intelligent co-creating out of relatedness among ourselves many times, because we have been so damned pathetic together. When we share real data rather than phony data, put our actual opinions in the public domain, say what we feel, have open conflict, and admit our intense attachment to all kinds of ignorant ideas—a resolution of problems eventually occurs. New solutions no one thought of alone show up. Then we get on with the task of co-creating how we live together in the world, and when new problems arise we are used to starting from scratch every fifteen minutes or so if need be.

Our work is recreation and co-creation. Our work is to live the good life that comes from being centered in the body—attentive to what our bodies are telling us from the inside while noticing what is going on outside and sharing what is going through our minds.

We know it is the height of futility to trust our minds at all. We check out what is going on in our bodies so we have some way of knowing other than our minds. Our work is to live the good life of consciously creating with a bunch of friends who love each other and continue to tell each other the truth in order to continually overthrow the antiquated structures of the mind and institutions of society, to build new ones, and to bring about a world that works for everyone today. It will probably be ****** up again tomorrow, but for the time being it works a hell of a lot better than mere tradition, which is mostly just ******** some other minds came up with a long time ago. It may or may not have worked before, but if it doesn’t work now, forget it. There is nothing holy about tradition. Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.

An Overview
We all have a psychological and cultural history. They are fiction. This fictional history is made up of partial memories of things that happened in our personal lives that we want to avoid and a few replays of some of the good times. We have a lot of illusions and ******** rationalizations about how we were really in control, and how we made most of the good things happen because of some virtue on our part, and survived the bad things because of some other virtue. But the truth is we didn’t know **** from Shinola about what was actually going on, and we still don’t.

We Futilitarians know that it is futile to try to make that story of who we once were be who we are now, particularly since it was ******** in the first place. We have become aware of ourselves as noticers, and so we don’t give a **** anymore about maintaining the story. We can admit that our psychological history is just that—it’s history. And even though we still try occasionally to make our new life match the old days, we can admit that it is futile. So **** it.

When we learn to live in the present, we are no longer chained to the past. We say to each other: “I am a being who notices. I have a particular psychological history, but it doesn’t have to dictate the rest of my life. I can choose how I live, rather than just react from my past the rest of my life.” If people don’t like that, **** ‘em if they can’t take a joke!

Then we choose, instead of living a life of reaction, to live from a vision in the future. Whenever we want, we can make a new picture of how we would like our lives to be. We can create it with some friends. We don’t have to kill or maim or hurt other folks like us who might have other visions that are different than ours. We no longer have to defend our ideas as ourselves!!! We no longer have to defend what we used to call ourselves!!! And we no longer need a defense budget that totally ****** away all the resources of all the people in the world to defend our fictional country!!!

This may be what makes Radical Honesty be called radical.

Visions about the future are fictional. Visions are just pictures created in the now about the future. Most of us don’t live into a vision. Instead we live according to rather vague but mildly anxiety-provoking memories of what must be avoided or recreated from the past. We try to keep from feeling bad and try to make ourselves feel good by making ourselves behave the way we know we should. Both the course of avoidance and the course of visioning are, of course, completely futile. Neither course ever turns out exactly like we imagined. So visions are mostly ******** , too, but they are less limiting than past memories and a hell of a lot more fun to work on together. And they are more easily revised or dispensed with. And even though they never work out exactly as planned, some interesting approximations do occasionally occur and make us happy in the delusion that we have done something on purpose and it worked! That gives us brief breaks from the tedium of true believership in futility!

A Vision of Heaven on Earth
Here is a fine fictional vision a bunch of us have come up with together that I am personally totally dedicated to. So are many of my friends. We have developed skill in commitment with detachment. We are utterly committed and completely nonchalant at the same time.

In our vision of heaven on earth, people are free to play with visions and they do. Adults who know they are noticers support all the children in the world. These noticers who raise children are paying attention to what each child is looking for next, out of curiosity. Then they find ways to support the child to find out about what they are curious about. It may be as simple as handing her a leggo. It may be as complicated as getting her a computer and getting hooked up with the sources she needs on the Internet. The whole world is organized around that particular kind of activity—noticing and contributing what is needed, noticing and asking for what is needed, noticing and getting what is needed—to continue learning and to continue the community based on supporting children's—and all people's—curiosity, interest, passion, and deep callings.

Noticers who support children are some of the highest paid people on earth, and that includes parents. Either or both parents can spend at least the first year of life with their child without having to go to work at all. Then gradually as children get older, parents can spend more time working and get some help with childcare as they choose. Childcare workers who support parents in supporting children to pursue their own curiosity get paid $350.00 an hour. (Lawyers, on the other hand, make minimum wages of $6.00 an hour—and illegal aliens do most of the legal work.)

Adults who have learned from raising kids this way and kids who are being raised this way live in communities made up of friends and families. All the people in the community get treated the same way the children do: with honor to the being who is a learning and living being. Everyone does whatever he can to support each other in learning and playing.

All of the economic, political, educational, government, and social structures are organized to support people playing with and honoring their children. The people live together as adults in the same way that they live with their children. Futility leads to bliss! What did I tell you?

Every child born on earth is born into the possibility of a lifetime of play and service. This possibility of play and service brings about the restoration of ecological balance; the end of racial prejudice, starvation, poverty, war, the military-industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, international corporate rule, campaign finance corruption, sexism, borders, disease; and solutions to a number of other problems. These solutions all come about through conversation that occurs from dedication to play and service to each other.

To keep this living structure in existence, the ongoing destruction and replacement of stale traditions and antiquated institutions comes about through honest conversation on a regular basis. These ongoing changes are a natural result of the reordering of priorities based on the quality of attention and contact between parents and children and the honoring of each other as beings by adults.

That’s it. This is the vision we Futilitarians choose to live from and the actions we plan to take, as a substitute for the dog and pony show that passes for common sense these days. Our own parenting and education from the dark ages into which most of us were born has left us a mostly useless heritage. But we’re used to that. We’re Futilitarians.

The Community
We have undergone the transformation from victim to creator through training each other in noticing and sharing. We have been telling each other the truth about our experience of being here. We have been radically honest about what we have done, what we think and what we feel. We have learned to pay attention first to who and what is present. We have changed our fundamental identities. We are less miserable than we used to be. We are Futilitarians much of the time. We have gone from being people trapped in the jail of our own reactive minds to beings who possess minds to be employed by paying attention and by envisioning a future that is kinder to people, rather than defensive and hostile and controlling. We have concluded that growing up doesn’t just happen once and then you are through with it, but has to recur over and over again on a daily basis and that there is no end to growing until death. And we know it is futile to try to do anything about that.

We know that our minds categorize and recategorize our experience and therefore repeatedly recapture the space of freedom that comes from identifying ourselves as noticers. The mind likes to narrow its options and close itself to new information. Because the mind is always attending to categories from the past, we know it must be repeatedly transcended, through honest contact and deep conversation with each other, if we are to maintain freedom from our own minds and from the jail of dead tradition. We will, of course, fail in this task, because doing it well is completely impossible and it is futile to even try. We enjoy futility.

We have found out that most of us really want the same things. And what most of us want is peace and harmony and love and caring for each other and a chance to be creatively playing with our friends. We now employ our minds to search out the means to support others and ourselves in pursuing the paths that pique our interest and get us what we want. It’s a hell of a lot nicer than fighting all the time. We think it would be heavenly to live in a society organized around the principle of constantly paying attention to children and to the fundamental childlike being of adults.

To keep living this way, we are committed to continually interrupt each other’s minds whenever we get lost in mistaking categories for experience as a substitute for experience itself. We were taught that having the right beliefs was the most important thing in the world. We no longer believe that. We think paying attention is more important than believing.

We are committed to each other and to a common vision of a world where living this way is possible for every human creature on earth. We are bringing this vision into being presently, in how we live and work together, and we are committed to having this transformation for the whole world.

posted April 19, 2006 03:55 PM              

Hence, one cannot refuse to consider factual information in an unbiased manner and still claim that one's knowledge (or belief) is to the best of their ability--or in anyway complete---but instead such a belief is clearly a product of one's desires and simply has nothing to do with the human ability to know. Basing one's positions on what one wants --rather than unbiased evidence gathering ---is dishonest even when good intentions can be cited--after all even Hitler could cite good intentions and intended glory for a select group of white people. Clearly then, an unbiased approach to the truth is a requirement of honesty.

Socrates had much to say about truth, honesty and morality, and explained that if people thoroughly understood that their behavior was wrong --then they simply wouldn't do it---

since ideologies and idealism exaggerate and suppress evidence in order to support their perspectives-- at the expense of the truth. This process erodes the practice and understanding of honesty. To an ideologist the truth becomes insignificant, only their ideals(desires) matter.

Both honesty and morality require of us to base our biased ideas & beliefs about what is good --- upon unbiased ideas of what is TRUE ----

What is Radical Honesty?

Radical Honesty is a kind of communication that is direct, complete, open and expressive. Radical Honesty means you tell the people in your life what you've done or plan to do, what you think, and what you feel. It's the kind of authentic sharing that creates the possibility of love and intimacy.

the best way to reduce stress, make life work, and heal the past was to tell the truth.

People who practice Radical Honesty have healthy, free, powerful and joyful lives. Lying and protecting your image takes a heavy toll on your health and relationships. Telling the truth is less destructive than lying.

The Heart of Radical Honesty

The heart of the message of Radical Honesty is that we can come to recognize each other as beings in common. We do this by being honest and by demanding honesty from others.

>>>>>>>>OK! I guess I need to stop cutting and pasting because I agree nearly 100% with the above and your next post continuing of the above!
I will read those books.
Thank You!

posted April 19, 2006 05:23 PM              

Children never hold firmly to any belief. They are always open to their experiences and are completely honest in their approach to themselves and others. Because honesty has to begin with being completely honest with ourselves about who and what we are. Like love, honesty has to be first applied to self before it can be applied to others.

I love what he says about it all being futile anyway.

I definitely want to read these books too, Fayte.

posted April 19, 2006 05:57 PM              

YES!
Luke 18:15-17

[15] People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [16] But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [17] I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

The View of Children in Jesus' Day
This question of how children are viewed in Jesus' culture is important if we are to interpret this passage correctly. The disciples rebuked the parents because children were viewed as unimportant in Palestine in Jesus' day. The previous incident in Luke that involved children is a good example:

"An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child (paidion) and had him stand beside him. Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all -- he is the greatest." (Luke 9:46-48)

And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise? (KJV)

"But Jesus called the children to him and said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.' " (18:16)

From:
The Nag Hammadi Library
The Gospel of Thomas:
4. Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.

For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

posted April 20, 2006 01:05 AM            

Sorry, for posting that earlier. I don't do that at all. But I am glad you said you feel its wrong and not you think its wrong.

Is it really ok to ask you questions publicly? I thought you have come to LL to help us? We are priveleged by yours and Mirandees immense experience including wisdom due to age factor? I am 31. Does it make me your son's age? Or would that be an age you would have baby sitted me ....LOL

OK going back to the posts.
My definition of it.
"Ultimate Truth" - The same truth for everyone. A spade is a spade. No more fights, arguments, in that zone. You know what I mean. Isn't that truth hiding in each one of us. And it opens up when we show unconditional love towards all including our enemies. Jesus's radical message during his times. He is so right.

So my question to you is, why do you think Jesus not take upon himself death for our sakes? Your belief is he escaped crucifixion. Are you saying all the stigmatas that many experience since then is false and theres a explanation?

You are entitled to your beliefs and so is everyone else. Believe me I respect that. I also think its perfectly valid if you do not think its right to answer publicly.

posted April 20, 2006 01:23 AM            

1. Compassion/Unconditional Love
2. Humility

What will make Jesus to bleed half way to death and suddenly someone decides to let it all go (sort of change of plan...)

Even if there are so many Master's why is the entry of them in our world so timely ? Who decides after all when they must come and when they must exit. In the movie 'Contact' by Carl S. one of the character says 'It has always been like this and it will always be like this' Quite a Leo wisdom out there and I have some of that qualities do not have difficulty in accpeptin that. But still it helps to talk and get everyone's viewpoint.

posted April 20, 2006 05:14 AM              

"But real truth can be found in only one place-- in every man's and woman's communion with an eternal Source of hidden knowledge within-- which each individual must seek and find for himself or herself.

We may point out the path to others, but each must walk along the path alone-- until every single "lost one" has made the whole journey-- and all of us have finally reached the light of full-born Wisdom at the end of the Way... where we began, a long-forgotten Time ago."

Linda Goodman, Star Signs

posted April 20, 2006 09:04 AM              

Mannu.....
No I am not here to baby sit you!
Actually dear you are closer to my husband's age NOT my son's age!
I have teenage friends too, and many 20 somethings for friends. You are an old coot by comparison!

I am not sure how to explain my theories on Jesus publically or privately without revealing too much of my own experiences and the experiences of others that have brought "theorotical" proof to the subject.
I also by the way very much enjoyed Carl Sagan's "Contact".
Carl Sagan was also a Scorpio.
Carl Sagan's Birthday.....November 9th. 1934.
I am twenty years younger.November 3rd. 1954.

posted April 20, 2006 09:53 AM              

Consider also for the moment; Saints. No one knows they have been sainted because they are dead when the title is conferred upon them, not by God but by the Church.
You then said;
Quote:
"Are you saying all the stigmatas that many experience since then is false and theres a explanation?"

I feel/theorize, based on things I have discovered by my own personal experiences, and folks who have shared past lives memories with me, that many of those stigmata are guilt induced, whether conciously or unconciously. The easiest way to tell the difference of who was crucified in a past life, and who feels Very Guilty, because they cucified others, is this:
(BTW..Thank you Lotusheartone and silverstone!!!)
1.If the "palms" of the hands bleed, that person I feel Crucified others. They did not experience crucifiction of themselves.
2.If the wrists bleed, that person was themselves one of the crucified. Some part of them remembers it personally and accurately.
3.The more religious, the more likely the palms bleed, the guilt increases for them.
They feel a deep need to perpetually atone over and over for their crime(s) against their fellow humans. They often do not have full stgmata with both entrance and exit wounds. Also often their stigmata is Easter related(in the case of Christians). another thing is that the guilty of crucifying others in their past life(lives), is that they often bear scars, like a sort of "scarlet letter" advertising their guilt and crimes upon innocent others in the past. The true stigmatics who were amongst the crucified ones, do not bear scars as a reminder, because they did not crucify others, and they bear no guilt or need for atonement. The more times a person(s) experiences false stigmata, the more times they did crucify others.
4.The true stigmatics are in my opinion, the ones who are rarely if ever Christians, but come from any religion or no religious background.
5.True stigmatics do not need to, nor desire to go public, at the time they are having this experience. They keep it quietly to themselves. They remember and know it is ok and to not fear it. They may speak of it later...but while it is happpening it is very personal.

For interesting reading see:
AGE OF REASON
by Thomas Paine 1794
http://www.constitution.org/tp/agereason.htm
http://www.constitution.org/tp/agereason.txt

THOMAS PAINE
COLLECTED WRITINGS
Common Sense; The Crisis; Rights of Man; The Age of Reason; Pamphlets, Articles, and Letters
906 pages 1-883011-03-5 $35.00
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine