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Author
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Topic: ~Getting off the Karmic "Payback Wheel"~.
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fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 12:59 PM
 
Lia 
I could not have said it better. It pains me more to see others being unjustly hurt than myself. And there are indeed alot of folks who are playing others with false flattery and plying them with lies.
There are a few at LL who indeed do that. Lotus is far from being the worse one. Lotus preaches...indeed she over does it and then contradicts herself by claiming to have love and respect for all. Lotus calls people names and judges them, yet then tells us "if you cannot say something nice, do not say anything at all", and other such rants at us.
However odious these tirades are that Lotus goes on....there are worse types of behaviour being displayed here at LL. The worse kind; because it is not as easily detected, yet oddly enough was and is still out there on post after post for all to clearly see! The more flamboyant the percieved persona we see is; and the spicing with the hearts and love motifs, the more the real personality is disguised.
We all missed this kind of personality playing us because it is hidden under a clever guise of love words and love/peace images, and concern by this type of self proclaimed love "person", bragging about their loving sensitive nature whilst slyly attacking those they do not agree with. These types of folks even openly admit to being manipulative, sneaky and vengeful and very jealous and paranoid.
Yet most here have failed to notice those types,or stop and question why anyone needs to toot their own horn so often.
Lotus is at least right in our faces...naked and leaving no doubt as to what she is about. But the other type draws us in with all the flattery and kind sounding words...and many of us want to believe that they are truly as loving, caring, and nice as they brag about being. So we become victim of such attention seeking emotional vampires, never seeing until much later that we were duped for their self serving agendas and selfish gratification. As a certain specific one of this type said: said: quote:
(paraphrased) Its all about image people!
This was in reference to condoning lying to folks to promote a good, but totally false front image publicly.
Lotus can indeed be very irritating, but I prefer that over the sneaker types who play heart/head games on us, making us really believe they are for real.Ok..before I go off on another rant..to quote your wise words Lisa beloved one.
quote:
Sometimes, I believe, it takes greater courage and strength to speak up when it's needed. To hope to make other's accountable for their actions. Sitting back and doing nothing while others are being hurt...wanting to be free of negativity...isn't this discompassionate and self-focused?The reality is there are manipulative people in this world. The reality is there is negative happening to innocent people. Avoiding 'negative' is to avoid humanity.
I always admire brave people who, for no personal reward in sight for their efforts, but just from caring for others, take a stand for injustice. There's a larger picture, and collective karma as well as individual karma.
If we allow harm to others, are we inviting that karma to return to us?
Love to you dear caring, noble and courageous and balanced Lia! 
In reference to the avoiding toxic and or negative people...
to quote that person:
quote:
And my prayer is
From this day forward Lord I will attempt to avoid all people of a toxic and negative disposition
That means by way of my own personal experience; "ANYONE who disagrees with them about ANYTHING.
....and by my experience of having been called toxic/negative.dark and evil/ by them, and accused of "unjustly"judging them....
Anyone who points out to them that certain behaviours are improper conduct at LL(ie; discussing buckets of *** and whips and chains/bondage, how moist their nether regions are and how oversexed up they are, etcetera, which they did talk about here, and continue to do). But I felt (as did others) that certain things being posted (and still being posted) were way out of line and too risque for LL..
That is the actual definition to them of what a toxic and or negative person is.
Yes, defintely, pointing out over the top outrageous behaviour is a form of judging.
And yes, it is my opinion...I admit that. However......that does not make me toxic or negative. I simply disagreed with them about what is socially and publicly acceptable behaviour.
And that makes me toxic and negative person in their opinion.
A little banter and joking and discussion is fine, concerning sexual matters.
But too much is too much..."in my opinion"....
A line needs drawn.I have to agree it has gone too far..."in my opinion".... Lotus gets upset too easily, and needs to ignore the more general, lighter or clinicaly imformative sexual discussions here at LL;
unless/until; they become more than mere discussion and turn instead(as they have done) into sexually explicet titilation fests,  raunchy flirting displays,(ie;buckets of *** ...ohhhhh ha ha) especially involving middle aged women & young fellows, who then all makes fools of themselves and wonder why people like Lotus or even me judge them. The point I am making here is just because someone has a strong opinion does not necessarily, if ever, or always, make them a toxic or negative person!
But to some folks, that is what it means and they choose to avoid or condemn all who refuse to condone or enable them in/about their questionable ways. "In my opinion" of course!
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Mirandee
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 01:25 PM
Lialei said: quote:
Sometimes, I believe, it takes greater courage and strength to speak up when it's needed. To hope to make other's accountable for their actions. Sitting back and doing nothing while others are being hurt...wanting to be free of negativity...isn't this discompassionate and self-focused?
Yes, I agree, it is what is wrong with the world today. Too many people looking out for their own self-interests instead of speaking out against the wrongs being done to others and the world. We are a world society of codependents and enablers. We are trained to just look the other way and say nothing. That only perpetuates the evils in the world along with the bad behavior of others. It takes a lot of courage to speak out when we see wrongs being done to others or our world. Often people would rather attack the messenger because they do not like or want to hear the message. One can pray for an end to negativity but if that prayer is answered the person will not have the positives either because everything in life exists with it's opposite. You cannot have positives without negatives in this world. Sorry, but that is only facing reality. IP: Logged |
Mirandee
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 01:56 PM
Fayte  Yes, it is easy to understand why the same type of behavior in others that you have had to endure with your mother for so long would prompt you to speak out against it. Moreso even than it does others who have not had your experience. And it IS the behavior you are addressing and not the person as a whole. I can see that because you always extend a hand to the person even as you chastise them for their behavior. To just ignore bad behavior only allows it to continue on and it really does the person who acts this way an injustice not to point it out. The fact that you and others point out the bad behavior shows that you DO care for the person. To just ignore bad behavior by telling yourself I will not let this person affect me is a defense mechanism. In some cases, it is necessarily to ignore and cut yourself off from the person if there is never even an attempt to change on the person's part as you have had to do with your mom, Fayte. There was a point in my life when, while I did not have to cut myself off from my mom, I had to learn to say NO to her. I had to tell her, " I don't do that any longer, mom. You are a big girl and you can take care of yourself and your problems." The reason I had to learn to say no to my mom is that she was always creating problems for herself that she wanted her kids to solve for her. Unfortunately my mom could not believe that her kids or anyone truly cared for her unless they proved it by solving her problems for her or other ways. She could not see the every day things as proof of your love for her or take your word on it. She had to have you come to her rescue time and time again and defend her even when she was wrong to prove to her that you loved her. I had a family of my own to care for and there was not one week that went by that my mom did not have a new problem that I had to help her with as proof of my love for her. I realized that I would be spending the rest of my mom's life in the role of her parent if I did not break the cycle by simply saying, " No, Mom, I don't do that anymore. You will have to take my word and the 1000 other little things that I do for you as proof of that love." That was just my mom's insecurity. There are a lot of ways that insecure people need proof of the love for them from friends and family. Some people need their friends to like their other friends and hate their enemies as proof, with others it is always agreeing with them and you are not a friend if you disagree with one thing. IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 02:03 PM
Mirandee!
I will not quote all your post but AGREE totally with you on it all, Wise Caring Lady!  Quote:
"Often people would rather attack the messenger because they do not like or want to hear the message." Oh how I can relate to that! 
Like when folks are sincerely concerned about someone's misbehaviouirs because they care, and tell another person who knows the naughty ones better, to tell the naughty ones they might want to be more discrete.....the messenger gets attacked instead of being thanked for giving a heads up so the rascals could have a chance to alter their behaviours to be just a wee bit more socially acceptable.
From now on however this messeger will let folks do their own thing. Be it on their heads.
But I will continue to defend the innocent and those being ridiculed unjustly or excessively for petty things when attacked.
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~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-
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fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 02:38 PM
Mirandee! 
You posted while I was replying to your previous post it seems. So now to reply to your new post!
Quote:
To just ignore bad behavior only allows it to continue on and it really does the person who acts this way an injustice not to point it out. The fact that you and others point out the bad behavior shows that you DO care for the person. To just ignore bad behavior by telling yourself I will not let this person affect me is a defense mechanism. In some cases, it is necessarily to ignore and cut yourself off from the person if there is never even an attempt to change on the person's part as you have had to do with your mom, Quote:
There are a lot of ways that insecure people need proof of the love for them from friends and family. Some people need their friends to like their other friends and hate their enemies as proof, with others it is always agreeing with them and you are not a friend if you disagree with one thing.
<<<So very True Mirandee.
I have had to let such "friends" go because friend H did not like my friend D and since friend D did not mind me being friends with friend H, I had no choice but to let the bigoted "friend" H go and keep the tolerant friend D. I will not tolerate jealousy and bigotry like that.
And isn't it strange...
That a friend telling a friend they have egg on their face and are appearing to others as having a not so pretty image, is often taken as interferring and judging?
Like I said,
With rare exception, from hereon I will not tell someone when others say they are not acting socially acceptable. They will hear it in time from someone else. Not my problem. All I get is grief and called a judge, for being the messenger of news they do not want to hear, whether I disagreed with the news or not.
So.....
Let the eggs stick.
I will not attempt to help clean such messes up again by pointing out the eggs on faces.
Luckily I have you and a few others here and in my offline life who do tell me when I may be over the top, or have egg on my face.
Thanks to you all. IP: Logged |
sue g
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 03:03 PM
and  IP: Logged |
sue g
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 03:55 PM
As a mother of a son, I can see how difficult it may be one day to let him make his own mistakes, without wanting to jump in and save him.....But we cant. My mother did this (jumped in and interfered) and it drove me mad and did actually, in part, cause me to make more mistakes. The more she tried to instill into me, the more I rebelled. We have to let them make their own mistakes....sons, daughters friends, lovers, partners etc.... Very difficult to do but a fact of life....... I have one friend and I know what she is doing will not benefit her in the long run...she is chasing an illusion, but I try to be there for her, to support and care, even tho others tell her she is wasting her time.... Arent life's lessons hard some times? IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 26, 2006 05:59 PM
I had a long post but server is acting up.
Later folks.  ------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS- IP: Logged |
Mannu
Knowflake Posts: 45
From: always here and no where
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 26, 2006 11:01 PM
>>>If we allow harm to others, are we inviting that karma to return to us? In my mind, we are. Our personal karma is to avoid/forgive their ignorance to us.
But when they need help, we must do everything we can, to avoid accruing negative karma. We ain't selfish, but this is the only way for the effects to recede and merge with the initial cause i.e the initial cause of creation. Although the escape from this dual world is to be mindless. We must ensure that all our obligations must be taken care of before we walk that path. "John take care of my mother" said Jesus before his last breath. If we wait for a favourable time the time would never come. "Do what you should do tomorrow, today" said Gandhi.
Every action has consequences and we must be aware of the consequences and take actions judiciously. Every moment we must contemplate of God before any action and we will be better judges of how to act/react.
Some people take use of rosary, some simply chant the names of God. Some are atheist but God even works thru such a person. Every person is different, and there is not one method good for everyone.
If everyone is King in God's kingdom, who will be left to serve these kings? The nature of God is manifested in all things. Good or bad everyone has a purpose. Hindu god Kali is feared a lot. But only by those who do not know her. She is believed to devour dead bodies in the cremation grounds. Never see how she does that , its forbidden
More rants to follow ...will be back.
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Mirandee
unregistered
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posted June 27, 2006 12:00 AM
I hope that more rants like this ARE to follow, Mannu Awesome, and I think very, very true what you said here. IP: Logged |
steelrose
Knowflake Posts: 114
From: Spain
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 27, 2006 03:24 AM
Of course I agree, Lia… I didn’t mean to say that we should avoid negativity to avoid bad karma, of course not. What I meant is we shouldn’t let toxic people in. Giving them attention only gives them energy to feed on…We should be protecting and fighting for the weak and innocent… but not for the toxic people. If you keep toxic people around you, if you open your heart to them, they just keep hurting you. Suffering creates imbalance, creates hatred. In my experience, it’s better just to forgive what they did and drive them as far as possible to stop the abuse. Only when you are happy you can nurture others. Fayte Oh, my dear, I didn’t know about your mother, that sounds terrifying… It’s really scary that people like that have innocent children to torture them. She won’t change, at least in this lifetime. She is too twisted and the lesson she needs to learn is too huge from where she stands, especially for an old woman as she must be. You only can attempt to help her victims with your wisdom. I think that pointing out the bad behaviour to certain people do not show them that you care. It doesn’t stop it from happening. They are just too insensitive and blind to understand. They are not prepared for it. Maybe they are not spiritually evolved enough. They will keep hurting you believing their monstrous conception of life is the absolute Truth. They need to learn the lesson themselves. They won’t because you tell them. Often indolence and silence work better because it makes them ponder and meditate. The other cheek business. Aggression, even well intended, only generates aggression. It’s what they are after. They are too angry inside and only want a way to let it out, and unfortunately, that means attacking others with their intolerance and narrow-mindedness. You can correct a child, not a fully grown up person, especially if their soul, for whatever the reasons, is twisted and sick.
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silverstone
unregistered
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posted June 27, 2006 03:46 AM
Fayte... I am sorry about your mother! Having your family not support you is the worst... I had experiences with my own family where they have turned their backs on me and it hurts but its lessons have helped me in my journey... and I forgive them... I know how that feels. I also think it is very brave of you to share that...------------------
~*Silverstone~* IP: Logged |
sue g
unregistered
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posted June 27, 2006 03:54 AM
Having bad mothering is the pits!My 80 year old father is going thro another breakdown : and still blames his parents.... He tells me "she never told me she loved me, she never hugged me".. . It makes me all the more aware that I shal endeavour to have as good a relationship with my own child that I can.... Dont we as mothers have a lot to answer for....? Steelrose  IP: Logged |
Mirandee
unregistered
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posted June 27, 2006 11:56 AM
Steelrose, very well said and I agree 100%. We cannot change other people, only they can change themselves. I normally give people more than one chance but there comes a point where you just have to walk away for your own well-being. Yes, Sue, being a parent is an awesome responsibility and since we moms spend the most time with our kids I guess we do have an awful lot to answer for. I told my daughter that before you get too serious about a guy find out his relationship with his mother. Because if it is bad relationship the chances are that any mother issues he has will be worked out on you. Of course, that is not always the case. Some guys have overcome and worked through those issues but they are rare. Might be wise to find out his dad's relationship with his mother too.  IP: Logged |
sue g
unregistered
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posted June 27, 2006 02:47 PM
Sounds like sound advice Mirandee...Strangely tho my first two husbands were very close to their mothers...and put her before me !!!! Both their mothers interfered in our marriages! But my third husband had a very "distant" relationship with his Mum and yet he is the best husband I have had (now I am sounding like Liz Taylor with all my husbands)...  Of course, there is no such thing as the perfect mother!!! IP: Logged |
Lialei
unregistered
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posted June 28, 2006 04:56 PM
steelrose, thank you, I do understand what you meant and very much agree.
I was spiralling off of things presented here into collective karma. I do believe that individual and collective intermingle; combine to form a whole.Yes, we do need to protect ourselves. Our love is a sacred gift and worthy of care and valuing. Being selective in where we place it,although it's a sad realization that we have to, is a necessity for its endurance and flourishing here. We are the only ones who can really be the care-takers of our own innocence.  IP: Logged |
Lialei
unregistered
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posted June 28, 2006 04:58 PM
As for individual entwining with collective karma, it seems as with everything there's a potential to overrun balance and veer into the extreme. Closing ourselves off to anything that at first site is deemed 'negative', allows prejudice to warp perspective of what may actually be an opportunity for cleansing a past karma that is carrying on infinately. It's a hard call, isn't it? I guess we can only try, then let go as realizations come that the relationship has no back and forth equal vessel flow, and is self-destructive to one's spirit to continue giving to vaccuous taking.I have this thing where in my life, I always feel I'm at a zero-state-clean-slate with people. Continuously clearing the past and renewing hope in beautiful, transformative/resolving potential with them. I don't know how else to be. It seems a way that I have no control over, but just is, for going with my natural intuitions of heart. I've often prayed it wasn't so...in the most heartbreaking times of disappointment and sorrow. When once again,hope is shattered.
Time moves on...the wound heals. Once again I'm at zero, crazily believing. Good or bad? I don't know anymore.
If not for hope...what point is there, what meaning could be found in this existance? So many nice sharings, everyone. A very good read. IP: Logged |
Lialei
unregistered
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posted June 28, 2006 05:00 PM
double post IP: Logged |
Mannu
Knowflake Posts: 45
From: always here and no where
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2006 08:00 PM
Lialei, Thats cool!!!========== I was just reading about the model of our universe. It seems that if you take all the matter in our universe it only accounts for 5 percent? I was as shocked as you guys may have been, when I read that. Take all the stars , all planets in all galaxies and then the computation was made. Wheres the other missing mass/energy. Indeed this world that we live in has strange story. It is indeed nothing compared to what lies beyond it. Mystics had hated this world, at the same time they didn't hate it so much. Let me explain. Since everythings of God, even this miserable world is still part of the All. When we reach the divine state of Love, we would see everything as aspect of God and will love the one Truth. Body consciousness will be lost in our meditation. Hmm... interesting!!! When Jesus was touched by many people he must have felt very uncomfortable (because he must not have had body consciousness when he was ministering. It seems you get a burning sensation when someone touches you during meditation) but he never spoke of it. Save for the one instance when a woman whose period won't stop touched him. I still wonder why and I am pondering in my heart as I write and hope you do too
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fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 28, 2006 10:05 PM
Mirandee
Tried to post this before but post kept glitching out. So cut and paste...here goes.....
Quote:
I told my daughter that before you get too serious about a guy find out his relationship with his mother. Because if it is bad relationship the chances are that any mother issues he has will be worked out on you. Of course, that is not always the case. Some guys have overcome and worked through those issues but they are rare.
>>>>My Experences have been the opposite.
Too close to Mama and it spells big trouble.
Just as bad as having an abusive one.
An adult balanced mother son relationship is important.
Mamas must let sons grow up and away if that is what the sons want.
Friendship responsibilty:
This is a reflection of my OFFLINE/Off forums life experiences to date and not specific to any one person in particular.
I have always asked folks up front if they really want brutal honesty from me.
I have sadly discovered that such complete honesty is not what most folks want even if they say they do.
I have made the mistake of assuming others want the same kind of honesty as I do.
I have said to folks...DO NOT ASK FOR MY OPINIONS OR ADVICE....unless you really mean it. I WILL give it to you!
I still mean that. Like it or not that is what I deliver.
So I guess from hereon I will not even give my honest advice nor opinions even when asked and told that is what is wanted.
Unless I know for sure the others can handle it and really want it.
No more assuming others feel as I do about brutal radical honesty.
But I can never be close or trust completely folks who cannot be totally honest with me and with themselves.
I have give advice to so many folks in my life to date. Far more than here at LL or by e-mails.
And many have NOT taken my advice but later came back and said..oops..I should have listened to you after all. Some did just fine anyhow without following my advice. good for them!
But as to the ones who came back because they did not follow my advice and things went wrong for them.
I NEVER gloat at them and say "I told you so!".
I just comfort them and say.."so what have you learned from this my friend?"
So yeah...letting others make mistakes makes sense. But if one is asked for advice one should give it. And it is caring when one points out something that could cause another trouble. If they choose to proceed...fine...but a true friend will not just stand back without saying something.
Then let the chips fall where they may. But it would be irresponsible not to say something. I am talking about adults here with adults, not children.
Parents must guide their children but not be overbearing. Too many parents overstep the bounds of parental concern and become dictators and dominators of their child's identity. That is a form of controllong abuse. That creates an enviroment that fosters rebeliuos behaviour not constructive growth in the child.
But telling adult friends...ohhhh...you might want to reconsider doing that...or are you sure that is wise? Maybe you should look at it some more and how your actions could affect you and others. Have you given this alot of thought?
Just food for thought. Not judgement.
Then let them go ...it is their choice to think about what you said or not.
They need not take your advice.
Nor be ****** because you gave it.
But from hereon I will not assume others really mean it when they ask for opinions or advice,
 By the way...again, this post is just "an accumulation of my life experiences to date, with many people".
Not any "specific" peoples.
I have finally discovered everyone's comfort levels are very different.
I can still get along with, but never be close to the more touchy folks who want approval or enabling and not real honest advice or an honest opinion.
Kind of like the old joke of...
"Honey how do you like my new hairdo?"....
Most folks WANT too hear..."ooohhh! Its Fabulous!"..., but do not want...."OMG GOD WHAT IS THAT ON YOUR HEAD!
I can try to go in the middle and say.."Well...its ok..I will have to get used to seeing you looking different"...Or..."its different".
But if it looks terrible I am not going to say it looks great!
Rant over and if I have offended anyone, my apologies. This is not directed at any one in particular.
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silverstone
unregistered
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posted June 29, 2006 02:32 AM
Greetings, Mannu, can you please explain to me what you posted, I may be reading it wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me bro! quote:
When Jesus was touched by many people he must have felt very uncomfortable (because he must not have had body consciousness when he was ministering. It seems you get a burning sensation when someone touches you during meditation) but he never spoke of it. Save for the one instance when a woman whose period won't stop touched him.
Cheers, ------------------
~*Silverstone~* IP: Logged |
silverstone
unregistered
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posted June 29, 2006 02:43 AM
Fayte: quote:
"Honey how do you like my new hairdo?"....
Most folks WANT too hear..."ooohhh! Its Fabulous!"..., but do not want...."OMG GOD WHAT IS THAT ON YOUR HEAD!
I can try to go in the middle and say.."Well...its ok..I will have to get used to seeing you looking different"...Or..."its different".
Well, I don't know about you woman, but if a friend of mine asks me, "Honey how do you like my new hairdo? and if it truly looks awful... I will say, "Girl [or boy], what the ffuuck did you do to your hair... were you mad?"
 People just need to hear it bluntly why go around the bush? Cheers, ------------------
~*Silverstone~* IP: Logged |
sue g
unregistered
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posted June 29, 2006 05:12 AM
"Too close to Mama and it spells big trouble"I have seen SO much evidence of this!! Here in Ireland the boys are raised so they are tied to their mothers' apron strings and then when they meet a woman and get married, they expect to have another Mammy.... Oh dear..... I am so glad my hubbie was detached from his mother, he is independant, mature, self sufficient and I dont have to compete with his mother like a lot of daughter in laws do. It works for us....she is in another country and we only get to see her when we have to. Now all I have to do is listen to my own words and stay out of my son's face. I dont think I will have a problem with that somehow at 7yrs old he is already asserting himself.... Thank God !!! IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 29, 2006 06:12 AM
Mi kyboard lost its uno vowl lttr so can't riply hir vry wll.
will B back soon with sum luck.
Had to cut paist usr naam. It has th lost ltr too.  ------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS- IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted June 29, 2006 06:19 AM
silverstone
I tnd to B with You on that too!
Rathur do that than fib if it looks liky a rabid porcupiny jumpd on uno's noggin!
Mannu and all...will riply moor as soon as I git anothr kiboard.
------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-
IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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