posted October 30, 2007 12:41 PM            

NOooooooooooo! You two get back here this instant. I'll do the demanding. Are you freaking kidding me???!!!??? If you two FRICKING GENIUSES put your minds together we might actually COME CLOSER TO FIGURING OUT THE SECRETS TO THE UNIVERSE. This is basically unexplored fricking territory and you two have the combined skills to start to figure this One out, and reach a little further. I have been waiting for this since I met both of you.

You two are amazing interactive resources to each other and you both love a challenge. What are you waiting for? Neither of you sound sure to me. Throw some ideas out there for you both to chew on. Figure this out.

TEACH US

please

posted October 30, 2007 05:54 PM            

Honestly,
I'm a little taken aback,
and confused by your reaction.

I went out of my way to answer according to your agenda,
and my response was still unsatisfactory to you -
yet you give no reasons as to why it is unsatisfactory.

Furthermore, you seem to be mincing words.
I have "something else for that"?
What are you alluding to?
Please, be frank with me,
and I will return the courtesy.

You say that I claimed to have analyzed "this" from many perspectives,
though it is clear to you that I have not.
Sir, I never claimed to have any knowledge
of the sort to which you are referring.
Please, be fair.

I have admitted my ignorance of this from the first.
It is you who seem to have confounded the matter,
and cannot distinguish between what I have understood
(and spent dozens of posts elaborating upon)
and what I have not even pressumed to imagine.

You want to serve a constructive purpose?
Well, I agree that, determining God's motives
would be an unparalleled accomplishment,
but, as I have said, it is beyond our (or my) ken.
If you have knowledge,
why not start answering,
instead of re-re-asking this question?

I will restate my view with an analogy,
as follows:

As I see it,
you are asking me to describe for you
the objects beyond the fartherst reaches
of the known universe.
I tell you,
"Sir, in order to perform this feat,
I will require a telescope more powerful
than any yet in existence.
If you can provide the telescope,
or suggest another means of apprehending deep space,
by all means, be my guest.
But do not continue to fault me for not accomplishing (at your whim)
what, to my knowledge, no person in history has accomplished."

But perhaps this is all a misunderstanding,
as you seem to have mistaken my initial claims,
and are merely trying to put me to a test
for which I never pretended to be fit.

posted October 30, 2007 06:54 PM              

i havnt pressed you on the question of whether God has free will......
i asked you, you said 'i dunno' ...and so i said 'very well'
(i simply find the question of whether God has free will directly connected to the question of whether man has free will....)

the next question was about determinism....
you have claimed in the past that you have thoroughly analyzed your stance on this, and that there can be no other way.....
yet to my reasoning......determinism is an outdated mode based on reductionism.......not the big picture....

i'm sure you would never claim to have analyzed the nature of God thoroughly.....:P

ok i'm outta here....have a nice day everyONE.....

posted October 30, 2007 07:55 PM            

I have read and discussed HSC`s belief in determinism but was interested in your statement :

quote:

---

......determinism is an outdated mode based on reductionism.......not the big picture....

---

Someday... maybe ?

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted October 30, 2007 09:48 PM            

Very well,
Chalk it up to Mercury in Retrograde.

Juni,

I'd also like to hear an explaination of that comment.

posted November 01, 2007 06:34 PM              

quote:

---

everything is determined;
All is One.

~~HSC

---

perhaps i've missed you saying that before
or perhaps you really did understand what i was getting at....
and you were just feigning ignorance .....

or perhaps you think that by appending the phrase 'all is one',
like a marketing phrase,
people will think that the two statements are dependent on each other....
so that if they accept the truth that 'all is one',
then that somehow means determinism is a corollary....

but what i read, is a logical error....
of the same form as
'all statements are false, including this one'

if all is one,
and the all is pre-determined.....
then what pre-determined it?

this is either a logical error,
of cosmic proportions....
or else it's a direct admission
that God has free-will....
the ability to determine itself....
the very thing that for some reason,
you were so evasive about saying earlier.....

for if you say,
'all is one.....
pre-determined by God...
and i have no free will'
then you are seperating yourself
from the all
in order to try and prove
jesus's pet theory.....

and a theory it is....
because unlike free will....
determinism, by its very nature,
is known to be quite impossible to prove
using any form of logic....

Petron the Dragon

posted November 01, 2007 06:39 PM              

Hmm.....this is weired....I had a dream about snakes/ slow worms last night.....

posted November 01, 2007 06:43 PM            

0 = Nothing.

When one understands Nothing they understand Everything.

posted November 01, 2007 06:44 PM              

quote:

---

When one understands Nothing they understand Everything.

---

Now that's something I feel I must understand!

posted November 01, 2007 06:47 PM              

I wish I could "download" the knowledge of the knowflakes onto my own data base.

posted November 01, 2007 06:49 PM              

Can we "Pay It Forward"?

What would then become of the two poles?

posted November 01, 2007 06:56 PM            

quote:

---

If the sun and moon were to ever doubt they will fall.

---

LTT,

I came to realize that nothing is in our hands. The creator lives in everyone. What we think about us is not required to run the universe. We are more than our body and our senses.

Our creator does respond to your summons if you will. If you ask for healing it will be done.

So many times I summoned for things that I needed and it appeared.

posted November 01, 2007 07:07 PM              

quote:

---

So many times I summoned for things that I needed and it appeared.

---

As a little girl I asked God for a caterpillar, a stripy sort I'd only seen at school but had been unable to catch. I think I may have made God a promise or something.

And low and behold, I looked up and saw one right on my bedroom window!

Strange??

A few days later, however, many maggots came out of it, wasp larva perhaps.

Symbolic of something?!

quote:

---

An ounce of Nothing weighs far far more than all the matter of the earth and its contents shrinked together.

---

Monatomic gold/ philosopher's stone has strange/ exotic properties regarding weight.......

posted November 01, 2007 07:11 PM              

And please make the task not too difficult, but pleasurable too. (Because this is the "inner me"):

The only problem is.....the desire for world peace may affect the "Free Will" of others.....so cannot ever be achieved until it is something we ALL desire in the same way.

posted November 01, 2007 07:23 PM            

This is also where I become confused which is why I set up the whole Petron and HSC discuss it thread. I would like to explore the answer to this.

The Answer must be Protected since everyone can dance around it but no One is answering it.

This is what I want explained. And if that is what is wrong, then explain what is right. Or use truth instead of right or whatever, no semantics arguments, just someone explain it if it is Known or say you don't Know.

I thought with your scientific base of knowledge, Petron, you might have a different perspective than those I have already explored. Will you share any guidance in this area? What am I missing?

posted November 01, 2007 08:18 PM              

quote:

---

When one understands Nothing they understand Everything.

---

posted November 02, 2007 07:26 AM              

Surely it is our attachment to this world that keeps bringing us back. What if we are prepared to let go of all attachment the moment we die?

That way we can go back to our true source and *dissolve* or merge into Oneness.....Bliss.....Being.....a state of "is-ness" that never changes....Infinite Love......Nirvana.

The Mormons would disagree.
According to them, it isn't like that at all.

Some people believe there is a reason and a purpose for everything....
That we are evolving.
That we are Creators; Baby Gods.

Now the question is.......

What do I believe?

How do I stop thinking or "believing" (the word believe contains the word "lie").....

And become attuned to, one with my true intuition? Not the Neptunian fantasy/ escapist stuff.......
But TRUE attunement.

I WANT THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!

posted November 02, 2007 09:07 AM            

quote:

---

perhaps i've missed you saying that before

---

Most definitely.

quote:

---

or perhaps you really did understand what i was getting at....
and you were just feigning ignorance .....

---

I dont feign ignorance.
I'm really that uninformed.
Say, maybe we could just have a civil debate here,
without you voicing nasty speculations on my character,
when you know next to nothing about me.

quote:

---

or perhaps you think that by appending the phrase 'all is one',
like a marketing phrase,
people will think that the two statements are dependent on each other....
so that if they accept the truth that 'all is one',
then that somehow means determinism is a corollary....

---

Again, your tone is smarmy and insulting.
You are better than this.

Determinism is a corollary.
I appended the phrase in that place,
so as not to be forever repeating myself,
rather than try the readers' patience with uncompromising thoroughness.
I have openly discussed the connection at length in other places.
As you suggested, and I confirmed,
this is something which you overlooked.

quote:

---

if all is one,
and the all is pre-determined.....
then what pre-determined it?

---

I don't follow you.
You are at this point attempting the impossible.
You are mistaken if you think think that
having a deterministic view of the universe
means I must solve the paradox of the chicken and the egg,
or the Unmoved Mover.
The problem is in your assumption that there can even be a beginning,
when, in fact, the real act of Creation is eternally recurring.

quote:

---

this is either a logical error,
of cosmic proportions....
or else it's a direct admission
that God has free-will....
the ability to determine itself....
the very thing that for some reason,
you were so evasive about saying earlier.....

---

What I see, Petron, in the universe,
is a string of dominoes.
I cannot say that there was a first domino -
it seems likely they've been falling for eternity.

The question here, I think,
is, if we see the Universe as a whole,
does that mean seeing it as a closed-system, -
and, if it is a closed-system,
operating according to its own laws,
does that constitute a kind of "free will"
for the motive force behind the universe?

Well, my view of the universe is more complex than this.
Yes, you could say that, since there is only one Universe,
and only one Will (one universal motive force),
with no others to oppose it,
that this constitutes a closed system,
and a kind of freedom.
The universe has its own set of laws,
and, although, from a relative point of view,
the universe appears to be a battle of wills,
a thing utterly in conflict with itself,
it is really just one thing.
In this sense, you could say that God has free will, yes.
But, even so,
although the All cannot be subject
to anything above and beyond itself,
it is nevertheless constrained by an internal logic,
a fundamental need to make order and sense of itself.
Even if the universe is blindly going through the motions,
endlessly creating throughout eternity
everything that could possibly exist,
the result of all of it is sense or nonsense.
Sense implies an overriding and underlying logic,
nonsense implies arbitrariness.
Neither really constitutes freedom.

quote:

---

for if you say,
'all is one.....
pre-determined by God...
and i have no free will'
then you are seperating yourself
from the all

---

How do you figure?
Is a cog separate from a machine
because it is predetermined
to be a certain shape
and to rotate at a certain speed?
I dont follow you.

quote:

---

in order to try and prove
jesus's pet theory.....

---

This seems tacked on,
just to imply another dig at my motives,
which you are in no position to judge.

FYI,
my philosophy predates my interest in Jesus,
so, if there is a causal relation between the two,
it is the other way around, smart guy.

quote:

---

and a theory it is....
because unlike free will....
determinism, by its very nature,
is known to be quite impossible to prove
using any form of logic....

---

((Ah, yes, the classic,
"Besides, everybody already knows..." defense;
always a popular choice.))

Seriously?

Known by whom?

Not by Einstein or Stephen Hawking,
and a long list of the most logical minds
to ever contemplate the universe.
Not by Voltaire, who was a slave to logic,
and mocked violently at anything
that overstepped the boundaries of pure reason.

Sir, it is indeed demonstrable,
as men like these have attested and demonstrated,
to anyone with a basic grasp of logic.

If something comes from nothing,
it is arbitrary, random.
Reason will accept this proposition.

If something comes from something,
it corresponds to that thing
in every manner of its being.
Again, reason must accept this proposition.

For any thing you can suggest,
there is a larger context to be considered
in connection with that thing.
See for yourself how perfectly
Reason will agree to this.

The greater your grasp of the context,
the greater your grasp of the thing.
All of this is not only reasonable,
but is a demonstration of the principles
of reason itself.

So, it may be seen that "causes" are only apparent,
that it is the bias of perspective,
which, viewing all things as separate,
posits these "seams" between things,
and these seams it calls causes/effects.
But no such division is truly defensible.
For, the more we look,
to peer into the abyss of these gaps,
the more we find the gaps full.
The gaps do not exist!
There is really only one thing going on here,
and it is The Universe.
But we, subjective as we are,
can only see "things".
Only in the mind can we see the connections,
and even then, we can only see one at a time.

Nietzsche provides the example of a bolt of lightning.
We say that "the lightning flashes".
But the lightning does no such thing.
The flash is merely part and parcel of that which we call lightning.
The lightning is not really doing anything.
It is only being the lightning.

We can enlarge upon this insight
to see it reflected everywhere.
After all, the lighting inculdes other things as well.
For one thing, it requires the viewer,
and everything that collaborated to bring about
the entire scene, including the land,
the observer,
the storm clouds, the planet, the sun....
(((((God))))).
The lightning isnt flashing or doing anything,
it is only being the lightning,
which, to be precise, means,
"being the lightning in the universe",
for everything in the universe
should be regarded in that context.
And the universe is not doing anything either;
it is not "doing the lightning";
it is only being the universe;
and the lightning goes without saying.

Nothing is doing anything.
Everything is being that which it is.
Everything is merely obeying,
merely playing out,
the laws of its own dynamics.

You insist on knowing, "is it free, is it not?"
These questions have no relevance at the level of the transcendant.
It simply is.
It is being.
It is obeying the laws of its own nature,
always expanding and creating above and beyond itself,
but always according to a single law.

Light falls in a single, uninterrupted stream,
until it meets with objects in its path.
Water is clear until it hits rocks,
then it breaks up into a billion oxygenated drops.
But something is still clear and uninterrupted,
and that is the universe,
which is both light and object;
water, rocks, and oxygen.
The larger context,
the larger flow is never broken.

Reason recognizes her own.
She requires no further demontration than this.

posted November 02, 2007 12:12 PM            

quote:

---

If something comes from nothing,
it is arbitrary, random.
Reason will accept this proposition.

---

This is the answer to my question. I see where you are coming from now, and what you are trying to say. Thank you very much for taking all of that time and energy to explain. I honor and admire your intelligence and your grasp of this information. Everything you write on this topic always makes sense, and any trouble I have momentarily in understanding it is always my own faulty or impatient reading. I have seen and understood almost all of these words from you before but I was missing the above conclusion and I didn't have the words to ask for what I wanted to know.
Thank you so much for patiently explaining. It is a gift and I am honored to receive it.

Thank you, my teacher.

~Melody

posted November 02, 2007 03:44 PM            

nice summation!

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 02, 2007 04:14 PM            

Petron, I knew that you could ask the questions I could not. That is why I sought this exchange. Thank you for your words and thoughts. I think there might be more discoveries ahead for me, but I am thankful for this understanding today.

HSC