posted November 04, 2007 01:25 PM            

I agree with all but four things in the article.

1. The application of names like "causeless volition"
and "motiveless choice" to the doctrine of Anti-determinism
is indeed justified.
The Anti-determinist's assertion
that the Ego is a self-determining cause,
is a perfect example of sophistry at its most blind.
Clearly, Anti-determinists feel constrained
to offer some cause,
in order to avoid the obvious inconsistency,
but this slight-of-hand trick only works
when people dont think deeply enough
to ask what is behind this curtain.
The success of Anti-determinism, as a worldview,
depends entirely on the superficiality of most people's thinking,
and, for this reason (that the majority of people think superficially),
it has managed to survive as long as it has.
It admits that there must be something behind the choice,
and dodges the question of what is behind the Ego;
that is, if the Ego is behind choice,
and choice is composed of the Ego,
of what is the Ego composed?

2. I doubt very much Jean-Paul Sartre argued
that introspection controverts determinism.
His entire philosophy relied upon interdependency.
In his cheif work, "Being and Nothingness"
he takes great pains to define consciousness
as consciousness-of-something.
That consciousness is contingent upon an object,
and may not be taken as something independent of the object,
is positively central to his thinking.

Furthermore,
The following quote illustrates perfectly
his grasp of the impossibility of choosing evil:
"In order to do that which is evil for me,
I must simultaneously approve and disapprove of my action.
This is absurd."
As the author of the second article correctly states,
"Philosophers have often thought that persons are responsible
only for those actions that they have the option
either to do or not to do or to will or not to will.
If all acts, including acts of will, are predetermined,
then this option does not appear to exist."
Hence, when Sartre says that the option to do evil is absent,
he effectively proclaims himself a determinist.
Yet this does not prevent him from being an existentialist,
and concerning himself primarily
with the problem of personal responsibility.

Which brings me to my next objection...

3. Determinism is not fatal to ethics.
Determinism recognizes the conscience
as a determinant of human behavior.
An ethical determinist may advise a virtuous life,
but he will not hold his breath,
or blame a person for living otherwise.
Tolstoy, a fervent proponent of determinism,
offers his own life as an example of this.
His philosophy did not kill his ethics, -
rather, it breathed new life into his ethics.
As he came to reflect more and more upon
the implications of determinism,
he adopted an ascetic, pacifistic form of Christianity.
A man of wealth and privilege,
he renounced his worldly position,
gave his land to the peasants,
and went to live on and work the land with them.
He ran a school for peasant children,
and published numerous books and articles
dedicated to the ethical life.
He's been called, "the conscience of his time".
Examples like this are forthcoming.

4. That the observor participates in the observed
is an argument in favor of, not against, determinism.
It explains why the illusion of free agency persists.
Due to the inherent subjectivity of consciousness,
we fail to perceive the extent to which
our environment informs our perception of it.
When we do not recognize ourselves as part of the environment,
we pressume a level of objectivity which we do not possess,
and we fail to see,
not only how we affect the environment,
but how the affect we have is
a direct result of the affect which the environment has on us.
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle only goes one step further
in illustrating a monistic worldview.
As the article correctly asserts,
"Determinism and the denial of free will
seem to be a logical consequence
of all monistic hypotheses."

posted November 04, 2007 01:39 PM            

"Time is relative" simple firm statement. Profound impact. Universe manifests itself differently to different people.

posted November 04, 2007 01:51 PM              

But it might be just that we all have different perceptions of the things Universe manifests to us??? What I mean is that Universe may be manifesting the same things to all of us. The problem might lie in how we each perceive the very same manifestations.

posted November 04, 2007 01:51 PM            

quote:

---

then again, if everything is predetermined...
how can man give purpose to his life?
he can only just sit there
and hope it was planned for him
to give purpose to his life........

---

Look at me.
I am a determinist.
Here I am,
searching for my purpose,
searching for answers,
rigorously revising my philosophy.
Am I not living disproof of your assertion?

I am not sitting waiting
(although that may be the best thing I could do,
as it is a sufficent definition of meditation).
I am seeking, knocking, struggling to understand.
I do these things not out of a free choice,
but because my nature compels me to do them.

Have you seen Woody Allen's "The Purple Rose of Cairo"?
A fictitious character in a movie becomes self-aware.
He steps down from the screen, and enters real life.
He is disillusioned to find that he is a character,
and yet, for all that,
he does not collapse into pure navel gazing.
He remains his character, as it was written.
He behaves the same, thinks the same,
regardless of his awareness that these thoughts are given to him.
He has the same passions, the same likes and dislikes,
the same talents, and the same desire to use those talents.

My condition is similar to his.
I have come down from the screen,
and begun to live in the real world.
But I have not left myself on the screen;
I have only become more self-aware.

To further contemplate this condition,
imagine that the character steps back on screen,
as he does at the end of the (actual) movie.
He takes his place as before,
but with this new awareness,
he knows himself for the first time.
Like Nietzsche,
he is able to "give style to his character,";
To make of himself a work of art;
to realize in himself the work of art that he is,
in the hands and eyes of the Creator.
And he knows that others are also
obeying the laws of their nature,
speaking the lines as they are written.
So, he is more understanding of others.
But this, too, -
the trip into the real world,
the return to the screen,
the change of heart and mind,
is all written into the script.
The one by Woody Allen.
Just as the script by Woody Allen
is written into the book of life.
(Talk about microcosms. Geez.)
We must enlarge our view; that is all.

A seeker will seek.
Knowing that he is compelled to seek
does not compel him to stop seeking.
Knowing that his destiny is written,
does not disinterest him in the book of life.
He still wants to see where the story goes,
and how it is going to get there.
His sense of wonder is only increased,
his desire to delve into the mystery,
and his respect and awe before the mystery,
is not slaked but stoked.

Try as you might to outwit the fates,
you must be who you are,
and become who you are destined to be.

"If you bring forth that which is with in you
that which is within you will save you.
If you do not bring forth that which is within you,
that which is within you will destroy you."

~ Jesus
(The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas)

posted November 04, 2007 02:25 PM            

Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour,
and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath,
and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known
the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory,

...And as Esaias said before,
Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

What shall we say then?
That the Gentiles,
which followed not after righteousness,
have attained to righteousness,
even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel,
which followed after the law of righteousness,
hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore?
Because they sought it not by faith,
but as it were by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone..."

posted November 04, 2007 02:32 PM            

~ Paul of Tarsus

"God help that man who seeks to reform the gods rather than himself."

- Valerian

posted November 04, 2007 02:58 PM              

quote:

---

"God help that man who seeks to reform the gods rather than himself."

---

Or woman?

But who exactly is God?

Who has the right interpretation of the Bible's words?

We cannot chose exactly what happens to us, but surely we can chose how we react to these things?

Although, we have to work with the knowledge we possess.......as some say they wish they knew years ago what they know now- they would have done it all different.

The truth can set us free, but we cannot set ourselves free without the truth first.

But can we chose the way in which we work with what we've got?

posted November 04, 2007 03:34 PM            

quote:

---

Its from understanding of my own egos and from observation of egos of others as well.
"Time is relative" simple firm statement. Profound impact. Universe manifests itself differently to different people.

---

What an observant fella you are

Mirandee,

quote:

---

What I mean is that Universe may be manifesting the same things to all of us. The problem might lie in how we each perceive the very same manifestations.

---

Exactly! There are several layers/veils of understanding to reach Clarity.

The Archangel Gabriel warned the prophet, "God is hidden by 70,000 veils of light and darkness.

Each is at their own level of discernment. The right place for the right amount of effort and Love spent on removing the veils.

I don`t believe it is a "problem" but simply a limitation that can be overcome.

Onward and upward, yes

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 04, 2007 03:36 PM              

quote:

---

So much frustration is simply a result of trying to think our way through problems instead of feeling our way to what we desire. How we feel determines our vibration, so until we change the way we feel, our minds will keep going in circles, digging up the same old grievances, glitches and gripes. If we shift our hearts open, however, light pours in, and then we can see our circumstances from a higher perspective.

- Julia Melges-Brenner

---

posted November 04, 2007 04:39 PM              

i'm not sure if you seek so much as preach....
i havnt seen you revise your philosophy either,
except in that youve gone suddenly to
describing God as nothing more
than a deplorable, thoughtless row of falling dominos

that movie sounds like a great example,
of some1 breaking free from the script
i'll check it out

posted November 04, 2007 05:15 PM              

quote:

---

The following quote illustrates perfectly
his grasp of the impossibility of choosing evil:
"In order to do that which is evil for me,
I must simultaneously approve and disapprove of my action.
This is absurd."

---

as an ex cigarette smoker
i know exactly what its like
to simultaneously approve and disapprove of my actions.

posted November 04, 2007 05:45 PM              

quote:

---

as an ex cigarette smoker
i know exactly what its like
to simultaneously approve and disapprove of my actions.

---

posted November 04, 2007 06:12 PM            

quote:

---

Understanding makes forgiveness obsolete.

---

I wonder what Jesus was not understanding when he said :

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 04, 2007 06:30 PM            

quote:

---

i'm not sure if you seek so much as preach....

---

"If you want to learn a thing, read that;
if you want to know a thing, write that;
if you want to master a thing, teach that."
~ Yogi Bhajan

quote:

---

i havnt seen you revise your philosophy either,

---

How long have you been keeping tabs on me, anyway?

quote:

---

except in that youve gone suddenly to
describing God as nothing more
than a deplorable, thoughtless row of falling dominos

---

The "nothing more" part is yours, not mine.
As is the word "deplorable".
I do not see it as deplorable, but magnificent.
If you see it as deplorable, that is your limitation, not mine.

quote:

---

that movie sounds like a great example,
of some1 breaking free from the script
i'll check it out

---

Don't bother.
Its over your head. :P

quote:

---

**also...sitting and waiting is not meditation...:P

---

Waiting and thinking,
or waiting and doing something, is not.
But pure waiting is meditation.
It is when you stop waiting
and attach yourself to a thought
that it ceases to be meditation.

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord,
when he will return from the wedding;
that when he cometh and knocketh,
they may open unto him immediately.
...Be ye therefore ready also:
for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."
~ Luke 12:36,40

"And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God,
and into the patient waiting for Christ."
~ 2 Thessalonians 3:5

quote:

---

as an ex cigarette smoker
i know exactly what its like
to simultaneously approve and disapprove of my actions.

---

Of course, we all know what ambivalence feels like,
and we all know what it is to make half-hearted choices.
Clearly, that is not something a mind like Sartre's would overlook.

What we are talking about is the moment of choice.

Imagine a scale.

On one side is your desire to smoke,
on the other, your desire not to smoke.

Now, if the scale is perfectly balanced,
it can tip in neither direction.

It may dip a little from side to side,
as weight is added to both sides,
but it will come to rest in balance.

You may be prevented from smoking,
but not by choice.

In order to choose,
one side must carry more weight than the other.

At the moment of choice,
the scale tips.

Why does it tip?

Because one side carries more weight.

At some point,
you made the choice to quit smoking.

Tell me,
what led to that decision?

Why did you not make it sooner?

posted November 04, 2007 06:30 PM              

....and that at some point forgiving becomes automatic; part of yourself....it's no longer something you need to "do" ...?

posted November 04, 2007 06:36 PM            

Jesus was constrained to "speak as a man".

I, too, often (and too often)
use the word "forgiveness" for the sake of convenience.

But it is clear from many of Jesus' words
that he understood this as I do.

For instance:

"They that are whole need not a physician;
but they that are sick."
~ Luke 5:31

Has a sick person done wrong,
that they need to be forgiven?
Would you seek to forgive a sick person,
when their sickness imposes itself on you?
Or would you seek to understand them?

posted November 04, 2007 06:39 PM            

See my response to juni.

posted November 04, 2007 06:43 PM            

quote:

---

he doesnt need to forgive himself either...
he's not responsible for anything he does....
how convenient......

---

Whether or not it is convenient is beside the point.

But, yes,
it is convenient not to be hung up on guilt;
to move on with life in the present moment.
It frees me up to follow my heart.

We should all be so lucky.

On the other hand,
it is decidedly inconvenient
when it comes to dealing with my fellow humans.

I must constantly seek to understand them.
It makes it difficult to dismiss them,
to vent my anger on them, etc.

posted November 04, 2007 06:58 PM              

quote:

---

if you want to master a thing, teach that."

---

theres a difference between a teacher and a preacher....

quote:

---

How long have you been keeping tabs on me, anyway?

---

from about your first post here....where i asked you "what about Gods free will?"

quote:

---

The "nothing more" part is yours, not mine.
As is the word "deplorable".

---

you used the word deplorable in this thread

quote:

---

Don't bother.
Its over your head. :P

---

ok

quote:

---

But pure waiting is meditation.

---

if youre waiting for something youre not meditating.....

quote:

---

Of course, we all know what ambivalence feels like,

Imagine a scale.
On one side is your desire to smoke,
on the other, your desire not to smoke.
At some point,
you made the choice to quit smoking.
Tell me,
what led to that decision?

---

it is ambivalence, as you say, you know what it feels like
there is no scale
during the very act of smoking, i didnt want to do it....
if only all our actions were based on a logical reasons....

i quit because one night i only had 1 cigarette left
so i told myself i would wait til morning to smoke it
3 minutes later it was in my mouth lit,
and i had absolutely no memory
of taking it from the pack
taking out the lighter, lighting it,
and puffing several times......
the idea that i had no memory of doing that
just minutes before
no matter how hard i searched my mind
horrified me......