posted September 20, 2006 10:09 PM              

quote:

---

will say only that the quote from St. Paul you offer for consideration has always struck me as a clear and direct refutation of the existence of free will. Paul says he does things which he does not wish to do (i.e. unwillingly), on account of his imperfections. There are only two ways that evil is committed, - ignorantly, or unwillingly. In either case, it is not the fault of the man who commits it, but, as Paul has said, it is the sin which dwells in the man.

This is what I have tried to say. It is what has been said by many good Christians throughout history, and all Christians who have thoroughly understood the true Christian teaching. Sin is sickness. The man who falls sick, who coughs when he is sick, and shows the signs and symptoms of his sickness, does not choose to do so. The sickest men are not the ones most deserving of God and man's condemnation, but, most in need of God and man's Love. Christ understood this, which is why he made it his mission not to reward and honor the healthiest among men, but, to bring healing to the sickest of them.

---

On these points we are in total agreement, HSC. I believe that St. Paul was talking about the inner struggle in all men due to original sin. To me original sin could be described as the separation of humankind from God due to the fall ( whatever that was and I do not believe it was due to eating an apple ) which creates a separation within each of us - our souls and our egos - and it creates a separation from other human beings. It's easy to say "all is one" and indeed it is correct but that is the way it was designed to be, the way it should be, but in truth is not the way it is all in reality. Paul was describing the inner struggle we all have and admitting it was due to our being born into original sin and therefore having an inclination towards sin. Being imperfect is a concise way of saying that.

And you are very right in that the sick or the sinners are the ones who need God. And that includes all of humanity. Jesus said, and I am paraphrasing here, " I did not come for those who have no need of a physician. I came for the sick." But I think that is all of us because there is no one without sin. We are all broken and in need of mending.

posted September 20, 2006 10:10 PM            

thanks, i'll take a look.

in the meantime,
you said salvation does not apply to me
because i am not a christian,
but that is the mistake most everyone makes.

salvation is for everyone,
and you do not have to believe in god
any more than you have to be circumcised.
there are two forms of salvation:
the first is a given,
we are all saved
because all is one
and there is no free will,
hence, no guilt.
the second is revealed
when we understand that all is one
and there is no free will,
hence, no guilt.
the first is innocence in the eyes of God,
the second is innocence in ones own eyes,
the bliss of knowing innocence.

Everyone possesses the first.

I am not saying i possess the second,
but i have a rudimentary understanding.
There are levels to understanding.
Achieving full consciousness of the One
takes many many lifetimes.
When you get it, really get it,
you become enlightened.

posted September 20, 2006 10:17 PM              

I have known people who professed no religion who were in many ways better people than many who go to church every week.

posted September 20, 2006 10:56 PM            

I'm a mess too, dont get me wrong. I may claim one or two advantages, even virtues, but I do not think that makes me whole, by any means, and there are many, many ways in which I find myself inferior to the vast majority of my fellow human beings.

I enjoyed reading what you wrote.
You often say things I find very valuable.

I think we disagree only in that it is my understanding that the temptation to sin is not the sickness, but the susceptibility to the sickness. Paul does not say that he is merely tempted against his will, but, that he "does" those things which are contrary to his will. We are not merely inclined to sin, as if sin were only slightly downhill. Rather, sin is directly beneath us, and we are subject entirely to its gravity. It is only Love which defies the pull of this world, and keeps us from plummetting into the very depths. To the extent that Love (or "Christ") enters us, we become light enough to float. It is a battle fought between powers far greater than ourselves, and ours are not warrior-souls, but, rather, our souls are the battlefields on which the war is fought.

The insinstance upon our personal substance perpetuates the conflict, but the awareness of ourselves as mere appearances opens up the way to Christ. It would be a mistake to think that we can assist in the development of this consciousness, for that, in itself, would presuppose the existence of our personal selves, and, adding mass to ourselves, assist the forces which seek to weigh us down.

posted September 20, 2006 11:37 PM              

Life form flourished.
Seasons rose and fell.
Yet, in its silent Lone-awing nights,
strange shimmerings glistened above,
shining an invitation to mystery
like beacon lights,

‘why????’

Around the garden,
a high wall seemingly
obstructed Vision

if only,
oh, if only,
I were just a bit taller than I could see All
and Know All

Scholars, Philosophers, Physicians,
Aristocrats, Clergy, Scientists, Intellectuals,
Analysts,
Mathematicians, all
congregated around the wall,
thundering their ‘height’
unto the heavens

measuring the circumfrence of infinity
with straight edged rulers
and silverquick tongue

Impressed with expression,
tempering their voices to angle
transient breezes

in the center of the garden
sat a ‘diminutive’ man
quiet in his Self-reflection
that mirrored in deep breaths
and tender awakening touches
listening so intently to the quiet spaces,
that Noise had yet unstirred

he absorbed the sun as energy vibrant
he inhaled the swollen giving molecular air

he closed his Eyes

and in that moment his life-long Quest
aligned with his higher senses,
his Vision broke beyond the Wall
Far into Voids of Cosmos
that tangible Vision had never beheld

and he held it Sacred to his heart
knowing it could never be measured...
Knowing it could never be formed into form...

Knowing it couldn't be a Word.

And the 'taller' men ridiculed
his inability to articulate
they rose their station
in relation to his,

yet remained oblivious
to the causes they effected
each current 'rising' hurling them
further away from hearing
the Sacred Potential
gifted equally in All.

posted September 21, 2006 01:20 AM              

I once had a priest tell me that "we are all in this together and either everyone is saved or no one is." This priest also told me that he believed that very few people go to hell.

HSC,

Thank you, I also find a lot of the things that you say very valuable.

quote:

---

I think we disagree only in that it is my understanding that the temptation to sin is not the sickness, but the susceptibility to the sickness. Paul does not say that he is merely tempted against his will, but, that he "does" those things which are contrary to his will. We are not merely inclined to sin, as if sin were only slightly downhill. Rather, sin is directly beneath us, and we are subject entirely to its gravity. It is only Love which defies the pull of this world, and keeps us from plummetting into the very depths. To the extent that Love (or "Christ") enters us, we become light enough to float. It is a battle fought between powers far greater than ourselves, and ours are not warrior-souls, but, rather, our souls are the battlefields on which the war is fought.

---

No, actually we are in agreement on that as well. I may not have expressed it clearly. Sin itself would be the sickness. The temptation to sin is the human condition which does make us susceptable.

I do love the way that you described that battle that is being fought between good and evil in this world and yes, we are the battlefield. Actually it is said, and this is not doctrine or anything, just a concept, that Michael the Archangel and Satan do battle all the time for our souls in the spiritual realm. We sense that battle inwardly.

I really like these words:

It is only Love which defies the pull of this world, and keeps us from plummetting into the very depths. To the extent that Love (or "Christ") enters us, we become light enough to float.

Beautifully said.

posted September 21, 2006 01:50 AM              

There is an enormous amount of truth in the beauty and eloquence of your words.

That small, still voice.

Reading your post reminded me of the story of Elijah the prophet in Hebrew Scripture. Elijah was one of God's more flamboyant prophets. He could really put on a show. The story goes that after Elijah had a "my God is bigger than your God" competition with the priests of the pagan God Baal, who at that time the Israelites were worshipping instead of God, and the God of Abraham won the contest the people turned on Elijah and were trying to kill him as they had done all the prophets before him. Killing the messengers.

Running for his life Elijah was in a cave when God told him to go to the entrance of the cave and he would pass before him and speak to him. Elijah did as instructed and when he stood at the entrance of the cave there was an earthquake, but he did not see or hear God in the earthquake. Then there was fire from heaven and he did see or hear God in the fire, then a tornado happened, a great and fierce windstorm, still he did not see or hear God. After all of this there was a gentle breeze and in that gentle breeze he saw and heard the small, still voice of God.

I always loved that story.

Anyway, God pretty much told Elijah, "Lets not do anymore of that fire stuff, ok? Cut the dramatics and just speak the words I give to you gently to the people. "

But yes, Elijah can kind of represent all of us who get into these " my God is bigger than your God" competitions and make a lot of fuss and noise about it. We need to be more like the man in your post who just sat still and closed his eyes. Instead of trying to see over the wall he quietly went within and imaged what was on the on the other side. He saw it in and through his soul because in his stillness he saw and heard the small, still voice of God.

We do hear God a whole better in solitude and quietness. And it is in only in our souls that we see God and come to know him.

posted September 21, 2006 02:07 AM              

------------------
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

posted September 21, 2006 05:17 PM            

I too was impressed by Lia's siren song.

It is not difficult to make idealism beautiful,
but she made it truly intoxicating.

- hsc

posted September 21, 2006 08:07 PM            

Lia has likened herself to a quiet, monkish figure in our midst, just as I have likened myself to a kind of firey prophet. I do not think either of us is exhibiting arrogance when we do this. We are just sharing our views, and we happen to both have a flare for the dramatic. She is, perhaps, more gentle and diplomatic, and I am, perhaps, more emphatic and direct. We have different styles, each appealing to different tastes. I do not devalue her way of doing things. I have great admiration for it. But it is not my way, and I also see value in my way of doing things. If anyone finds my words too sharp or bitter, they are free to disregard them, but I know there are many people who have a taste for them, and who would disregard what they might experience as the too-sweet taste of Lia's words. To each their own.

Also, I do not think our manner of expressing ourselves has much, if anything, to do with the philosophical points we are drawn to express. Lia could be suggesting a view of determinism in the same soft style with which she now supports free will. I could be arguing for free will just as categorically as I now argue for determinism. Our styles are not dependent upon our points of view, and our points of view are not dependent upon our styles.

posted September 21, 2006 10:34 PM              

I know that with all that fire in her chart, her Saggie sun and Leo moon, Lia can be very firey too when she feels it is called for. But yes, she speaks her truth gently, not commandingly.

We are all unique and should be appreciated for our uniqueness. You have a talent with words too, HSC. So does AG and others here at LL. I appreciate everyone for who and what they are. But Lia should not be ignored or dismissed as just an "idealist." The world would never have progressed to the point it is now if not for the idealists. As Bobby Kennedy stated, " Some people see what is and ask why? I see what could be and ask why not?" We would not have the beauty we have in the world if not for the poets and dreamers. We would not have advanced as far as we have without the idealists who see what can be and should be and attempt to bring it about.

St. James in his letters Chapter 3 spoke of the power of the tongue. He states that "...we all fall short in many respects. If anyone does not fall short in speech, he is a perfect man, able to bridle his whole body also." In other words, if a person can tame his tongue it reflects self-control in their whole being. They have also tamed themselves.

St. James goes on to state that " a small fire can set a huge forest ablaze. The tongue is also a fire....for every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed by the human species, but no human being can tame the tongue." He also goes on to state that with the same mouth we praise God but curse other human beings.

That Lia can do that, tame her tongue, in her speech reflects a great deal of enlightenment. Not a lack of fire or passion. She certainly has more than her share of passion as is reflected in her words. She just has learned to control herself and for that I both admire her and respect her. I envy her too because I need to learn to have more self-control over my speech which also can set forests ablaze if I get angry.

No comparisons drawn here. Just letting Lia know how inspiring her words are as they made me spiral in thought. Few people have the ability to transport others in thought. It takes a pure soul and heart to do that. So it is noteworthy I think.

posted September 22, 2006 11:27 AM              

I have come to realize that in discussing free will it takes in a whole lot of other areas such as determinism, predestination, fields of ethics, psychology, theology and philosophy. The one field of theology it does take in is moral theology. Free will is a spiritual matter as well as a practical matter.

I think the misunderstandings here arise from our differences as individuals in our approach of expressing our opinions and thoughts. Those thoughts are coming from different backgrounds, different ideologies, and different life experiences. But pretty much anything that is discussed on public forums is coming from those aspects of each of us.

I think the differences in approach from each of us is a good thing because we each have something different to add to the puzzle. Free will is not an easy thing to explain.

People such as AG and myself who have Christian backgrounds will always approach any subject regarding the spiritual from that base of belief. So it's good to have others here such as yourself, Lia, Silverstone, Fayte, and Mannu who have a different belief base formed in ways other than Christianity. Though Mannu has obviously done a lot of studying on the subject of Christianity himself even if he doesn't profess to be a Christian. Correct me if I am wrong, Mannu. It's obvious to me that you have also done that, HSC, as you and I are in agreement on many things that come from a Christian base.

We do tend to form our worldview, our outlook in life and our way of thinking about God and the things that pertain to God on our base of belief or non belief as the case may be. Our spirituality alone takes in so much regarding our psyche, who we are as a person, our psychological make-up and our life experiences that I just have to say for that reason that none of us are wrong and that all of us have some truth to offer. Otherwise we are negating the feelings and experiences of the other person. Which in turn negates the person themself. It's more for that reason that I am reluctant to tell someone else that what they think about God or feel about certain spiritual matters is wrong. It may be wrong for me coming from my own background, my own belief system and my own experience but it is not wrong for those coming from their own path which formed their system of belief. To me, in listening to those who are coming from a different direction, I learn new things and new ways of thinking. Some I may reject and some I may keep and ponder on.

Frankly I appreciate and respect all you here on this thread for even wanting to talk about things as serious as free will, and for even thinking about and discussing God and spiritual matters. I love you all for that because we could be spending our time on the forums here talking about ourselves,joking around all the time, and dealing in nothing but the most trivial of matters like a lot of other people. At least all of us are willing to jump into the vast unknown and share our thoughts and feelings about it all for what it is worth. Not putting down laughing and joking either. The world is diverse and I think it's great to encounter well rounded people who can both joke and be light and at the same time deal in the more serious and complex issues of life. I see that in all here on this thread. I think you all represent what is described as "being in the world, but not of the world." It's an almost but not yet kind of existance that we all live. One foot in heaven and one foot firmly planted on earth.

posted September 22, 2006 01:02 PM              

I purposely made the 'diminutive' man a man, so that it wouldn't appear as I was saying I was him. Because I'm not him, not the taller ones by the wall...I'm both and I'm neither.

Although, yes, I do relate more to him. I've never been much into debate myself and I'm more inclined to Quest off to myself and leave the arguing and assertions to others. I do like to exchange ideas, and learn along the way, but I think too often debates stray into ego. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate that others are different and like to debate..or that I don't see the value in debate. I realize it causes reflection and has potential for new perspective. So I have read this entire thread through and followed it and valued all the posts as thought-provoking as they were.

What I was trying to express is that sometimes in the enthusiasm of debate ,combined with the focus you choose and judgements you make of others, you alienate people and depreciate their value in the process. It depends on the welcomeness of delivery. Are you welcoming when you pick every sentence someone else write's apart in disection?...when you judge their ability to reason or their eloquence in delivery?
Especially when you assume yourself higher in ways than them?
Those aren't facts. They're perceptions. You call them Truth. They're projections.

People are multi-dimensional Beings. They can be one thing in one moment and what you might consider the entire opposite of what you originally thought of them in the next.
You placed a label on me here...the sweet, quiet, unassuming one, while you are the fiery prophet. There have been moments in my life when I've felt more of a fiery prophet than a quiet monk. They're all passing times, and I don't hold myself to them or allow others to pin me down into them (as is always human nature to try it seems).
It's a mold, I will not confine myself to.
These things aren't of me. They're outside of me.

In this moment you might be firey,HSC, but I've also seen others where you have been diplomatic and more gentle. I see you as both/all things, so of course I'm going to feel diappointed when I don't feel I've been given equal consideration.

You might say that I'm gentle, but that
person who I just slammed with some passionate assertive rebellion would think otherwise of me. It's all shifting perceptions, depending on the person, but has little to do with the complexity of who I am.

I'm aware all this strays from the original topic, so I'll bow out here on out.
I don't mean to interfere or distract from it. It's a worthy discussion, I think.

Mirandee, fayte and Silverstone, thank you.

posted September 22, 2006 08:05 PM              

Yes, we do tend to forget that one moment or one situation and the way we may choose to react at that time is only one facet of our whole being. We are not confined or defined by that one moment in time. Dr. Wayne Dyer talked about not allowing others to define who we are. We know who we are and we are the only ones who can define ourselves. I try to keep that in mind and when others start projecting onto me their image of who and what I am I will even tell them "you don't define me."

posted September 23, 2006 04:41 AM              

I am very interested to know how this Priest knew that only a very few people go to hell. I would also be interested to know what one has to do to be banished to the fiery depths..

Mirandee, if you see him again, will you ask him, because I find this statement very intriguing....it really got me thinking.

Would murderers, rapists, child abusers qualify? And how bad a crime would one have to commit, before being "sent down".....?

I am visiting a priest at the moment regarding some mistreatment of school children in a local school....we get on very well, I may ask him what his views are on this. I wonder if these two men would hold similar views on the "hell" thing...

And I wonder if I am due to go "up" or "down"...

Haha!!

posted September 23, 2006 09:55 PM              

He was just giving his opinion. We are friends and have been for a long time. I have known him since I was 19 years old. It was a private discussion between the two of us and really, he said that in the context of talking about the infinite love, mercy, forgiveness and grace of God. Priests do have their own opinions just like everyone else but what they would say to a friend or confidant is different than what they may teach as they are charged to teach strictly church doctrine. Same with lay catechists. If it is opinion they are given while teaching or at mass in their homily they are supposed to specify that it is a personal opinion.

I cannot answer your question about who goes to heaven or hell. No mortal can answer that question because it is God who alone has the right to judge us and it is God alone who has the right to determine who goes where after death. Fr. Z was not making any judgments on who goes where after death. He was talking about the love, forgiveness, and mercy of God.

I will say that very few look at hell as place these days. They see it as a state of eternal existance. Same with heaven. No fire and brimstone or devil in hell. No streets of gold in heaven. Heaven and hell are really just terms to describe a state of being throughout eternity.

posted September 24, 2006 02:03 AM            

A man puts his self effort and it is God who provides the grace. Science has discovered a mysterious manner in which everything is in this universe, including how an electron spins. They won't admit that its the grace of God or some higher power if you will.

One thing we must understand is that. God is all pervading, so even if someone is destined to hell, perhaps its a purification process.

Jesus, said our Father in heaven is perfect. Perhaps the creation was good initially and somehow we ended up in the material plane.

A gold smith heats golds a lot and the impurities seperate from the gold. Perhaps the child abusers, rapists will have to undergo similar purification process. It does not mean God is waiting with a big vessel containing oil heated to 1000 degrees. Its a place where you do not want to be, which even Jesus described in one of the parable I posted before regarding a man dying and going to sheol.

If the creator has given us the free will, perhaps he might strip us of that privelege as he pleases. Now what does that mean? What constitutes a man? Is it the body? No body is recycled? Is it mind? May be, isn't that really seperates us from the grace? But isn't mind just a priciple? Meaning its not unique? That is two men can desire chocolate cake? Its the same thought?
So then what is man? Is HSC right when he says everything here is make believe? May be he is right, but a God wud never want a abuser to be successful. Perhaps the grace/intelligence permits certain acts to happen and then the same grace interferes and rewards. The karmic priciple.

Hmm, so it implies a man is just a thought in Gods eyes. When we are awake, we drive the dream (God is not totally asleep because who will make our heart beat? ). When we sleep the grace is awake and takes total control. Ah ha......that makes sense. Perhaps God is planning to give us our rewards based on our deeds in the waking state. We also recreate our new body cells during our sleep. Actually every second the old cells dies and the new cells are created again. Every drop of your bodie's blood passes thru your heart every minute daily. I do feel fresh when I wake the next morning. Perhaps I can't explain what I got back from the sleep.

If what I said is true, indeed this dream (our waking state) is so powerful that we are fools to think that this material world will last forever.

Therefore given the illusive nature of our material world is there no difference between a plant and a human body? We must not be attached to the needs of our bodies.
They won't go with us when the big dream ends.

Indeed when we pluck a flower, the stars above us is shaken some place. A butterfly flaps its wing in africa and a hurricane comes to the shores of America.

We are all connected.

Oops sorry I might have went astray.
Feel tired...Have to sleep.

posted September 24, 2006 10:13 AM              

Just reading your post my mind started spiraling in all different directions. I want so badly to reply right now but my grand daughter is having her 6th birthday party here today and I have too much to do so can't reply right now. I guess that is good because it will give me more time to think on the things you said here before responding.

One thought though on something you said:

quote:

---

Therefore given the illusive nature of our material world is there no difference between a plant and a human body? We must not be attached to the needs of our bodies.
They won't go with us when the big dream ends.

---

So very true! And when you think about how humankind spends so much time and effort on the appearance of their outer self and so little time working on the things of the inner self that really matter the most in the end, it does seem that we have our priorities all mixed up doesn't it? Which does not mean that some folks don't do both. But it recalls what Jesus is attributed to saying in Matthew's gospel: " Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth where rust and moth consumes and thieves break in and steal. But rather lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither rust nor moth consume nor thieves break in and steal. For where a person's treasure is there also is where his heart will be."

Please let me know if you guys think I am quoting Scripture too much. I don't want to sound like one of those bible thumpers. hee hee It is just that many of the things you guys say remind of something from Scripture and I think those writers and Jesus said it a whole lot better than I ever could.

Okay, will get back here later because you gave me so very much to think about here, Mannu.