posted August 25, 2006 01:21 AM              

I found this site tonight. It's a philosophical article concerning the differing opinions on Free Will. I thought maybe anyone who is interested could read it and then we can discuss it and maybe find some other thoughts on the subject of Free Will.

I hold to the belief of Free Will. It is the way that we are created in the image of God.

I read part of this philosophical article but it is late here and I need sleep. It seems like a thought provoking article.

posted August 25, 2006 08:31 AM            

My argument is as follows: God had precribed in his Torah given to Israelites, the rituals when a leper is cured. This was thousands of years before Jesus's arrival. Lets now ask a question "Was any one cured of leprosy from the time of Moses until Jesus's arrival?" After all, penicillin was only discovered in the 19th century, which started other discoveries. The jews are very meticulous record keepers. Not one may have been cured. Ofcourse there are stories of God inflicting leprosy on the whole military camp. Or may be it happened before the Torah was given. Please check guys.

So starting with a small miracle, Jesus progresses on to greater miracles, one step at a time. All this time the Pharisees are keeping a close eye on him, to see if he is satanist, because even a satan can do miracles and deceive.

What does Jesus say to some of the people he healed? He says go to the priests blah blah..... He is announcing his coming in a way.

Wonder the priests reactions when they do not understand how to perform the ritual, they never had to do that for thousands of years. Many generations has passed from Moses. Who were to teach these priests.

So Jesus saying "It is so that the work of God will manifest", means God has a plan and for this reason this man was born blind, so that everyone will believe that Yeshua was sent by our Father. That he is the Messiah who was destined to come. The pharisees and the high priests may have tried to ban this blind man from the community if he went on broadcasting his healing. But I'm sure the amout of happiness he experienced, he would have gone against anyone who was trying to destroy his happiness, particularly the pharisees.

Hope it makes sense. And I know that this whole argument is based on there being no cure of Leprosy since the time of Moses. Even if it ain't true, I hope people will try to understand the greater picture.

Cheers.

quote:

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The best way to predict the future is to create it.

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posted August 25, 2006 09:44 AM              

>>>>Unless my maths are off in my morning mind meanderings.....
Here goes.....

FREE WILL=6+18+5+5+23+9+12+12=27=9
same as GOD
GOD/7+15+4=17=8=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=36=9
a triangle or triple of 3.
FREE WILL IS of/from GOD.

We are God experiencing the human condition and learning and growing.
Creator/Reactor/Creation.
The Creator IS the Creation.

Just my opinion.

posted August 31, 2006 03:56 PM            

"Everything happens through immutable laws, ...everything is necessary... There are, some persons say, some events which are necessary and others which are not. It would be very comic that one part of the world was arranged, and the other were not; that one part of what happens had to happen and that another part of what happens did not have to happen. If one looks closely at it, one sees that the doctrine contrary to that of destiny is absurd; but there are many people destined to reason badly; others not to reason at all others to persecute those who reason."
- Voltaire

"The initial configuration of the universe may have been chosen by God, or it may itself have been determined by the laws of science. In either case, it would seem that everything in the universe would then be determined by evolution according to the laws of science, so it is difficult to see how we can be masters of our fate."
- Stephen Hawking

"The first dogma which I came to disbelieve was that of free will. It seemed to me that all notions of matter were determined by the laws of dynamics and could not therefore be influenced by human wills."
- Bertrand Russell

"A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
- Schopenhauer

"A self is a repertoire of behavior appropriate to a given set of contingencies."
- B. F. Skinner

"Whether or not we have personality disturbances, whether or not we have the ability to overcome deficiencies of early environment, is like the answer to the question whether or not we shall be struck down by a dread disease: "it's all a matter of luck." It is important to keep this in mind, for people almost always forget it, with consequences in human intolerance and unnecessary suffering that are incalculable."
- John Hospers

"The enormous value of the concept of free will in relieving parental shame and guilt is the only and overriding reason, in our opinion, that the lie of free will is well nigh universally taught to all children. If and when we can convince parents of total determinism, so they are freed from their own shame and guilt, they will no longer need to teach the vicious lie of free will to the world's children. A new world will be born."
- Peter Gill

"To say that a man is sinful because he sins is to give an operational definition of sin. To say that he sins because he is sinful is to trace his behavior to a supposed inner trait. But whether or not a person engages in the kind of behavior called sinful depends upon circumstances which are not mentioned in either question. The sin assigned as an inner possession (the sin a person "knows") is to be found in a history of reinforcement."
- B. F. Skinner

"In the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause, and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity."
- Baruch Spinoza

"You will say that I feel free. This is an illusion, which may be compared to that of the fly in the fable, who, upon the pole of a heavy carriage, applauded himself for directing its course. Man, who thinks himself free, is a fly who imagines he has power to move the universe, while he is himself unknowingly carried along by it."
- Baron d'Hobach

"I am a determinist. ...The real issue, so far as the will is concerned, is not whether we can do what we choose to do, but whether we can choose our own choice, whether the choice itself issues in accordance with law from some antecedent."
- Brand Blanshard

"The concept of “free will” is so elusive it can’t even be defined, except to mean without cause, chaotic. All of humanity’s thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are caused (forced) by one or more determinants. Beliefs, especially those which are emotionally loaded, are powerful determinants of thoughts, feelings and behaviors. “We are what we believe.”"
- unattributed

posted August 31, 2006 05:08 PM            

If so why do people still gamble?

Hahahaha.....

It has still not been proven that "God does not play dice" Einstein died proving it.

Yes this universe seems to have had a beautiful beginning. Some one tuned the initial parameters. But how old do you think this universe is? 15 billions years?

Using computer models scientist has gone close to micro seconds after the big bang. But to go beyond that time is to be God
Everything is still a philosphy to what happens at time t = 0 sec.

Although we are all connected together in our present universe, no one can tell, what lies beyond that.

Come on Jump start your imaginations and start philosophising, its good to philosophise.

If in this universe free will does not exist? Why do we have to pray to get what we want? And why are some given even before they ask of it?

posted August 31, 2006 05:49 PM            

The koran described that the universe is expanding. This was in the 8th century.
Science confirmed it in the 20th century.

The koran says there will be a judgement at the end of the world. So do the christians and the jews and other religions.

No free will means no judgement. I wish that was true. Existence of free will implies judgement.

posted September 01, 2006 11:34 PM            

Lets see how God strips people of free choice. Let us allude to the story of Pharoah. Before Moses was born, the pharoah treated the Jewish people inhumanely including infanticide and oppression.

So you see, we live a life, and we make our choices, and then God decrees (or ordains). We are living in a living energy as I said. A very dynamic energy.

What did God decree in that story? He said I will harden the heart of the Pharoah (Ex 4:21). And I won't go in to details of the drama that pursued but its very significant in all that happened later on.

Jesus was quoted as saying "From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded." (Gospel of Luke)

Its quite evident from this that we are stewards of Gods assets. And we must aim to be the best.

So bottomline do not make excuses by blaming God but make wise choices in your lives.

posted September 01, 2006 11:52 PM            

Heres some quotations for you all to meditate:

quote:

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"The spirit of God hovered above the water" - Genesis

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My shades if you will Hehehehe :
Spirit = Was it in heaven? Are n't we all from up there?
Water = cud it mean the physical plane of existence.

quote:

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Man proposes God disposes

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quote:

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Life is painting a picture, not doing a sum - Oliver Wendell Holmes,Jr.

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quote:

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The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be - Carl Sagan

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posted September 02, 2006 01:19 AM            

quote:

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It is a song of love, it is a flow of ecstasy
Life is nothing else
It is the story of you and me
It is a song of love, it is a flow of ecstasy

In gaining you must lose something, in losing you must gain something
The meaning of life is coming and going
From a life of only a couple moments you have to steal a full lifetime

Life is nothing else
It is the story of you and me
It is a song of love

You are the current of the river, I am your shore
In my eyes is an ocean, waters of desire
Life is nothing else
It is the story of you and me

It is a song of love

The storm is going to come, and then it will go away
This is a cloud of a few moments, after spreading it will pass
Images remain, marks remain

Life is nothing else
It is the story of you and me
It is a song of love, it is a flow of ecstasy
Life is nothing else
It is the story of you and me
It is a song of love

---

posted September 02, 2006 01:36 AM            

quote:

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After all who really gets it right the first time

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Hmmm...I know Mirandee doesn't believe in it.

posted September 02, 2006 01:40 AM              

(*thinking*)

beautiful song that is, Mannu

posted September 02, 2006 02:07 AM              

My brain is admittedly mush tonight.
Too tired to form intelligible thoughts.
But I will say that I've never felt I could believe entirely that reality is an illusion. Or maybe the thought of the coldness and meaningless of that, is too horrific for my mind to wrap around.
Or maybe it's just a matter of what is really meant by 'illusion'. Is it thought of as an illusion merely because it is manifested by thought?
Beyond this 'reality' all is manifested by energy rather than physically.
Yet, I don't believe that that in itself makes it any less Real.

goodnight,Sweet Dreams

posted September 02, 2006 02:38 AM              

It is late now that I see this and there are some very interesting thoughts that you guys have so will get back with my thoughts on free will this weekend.

No, I personally don't believe in reincarnation and I will give you my reasons when I come back. It mostly has to do with my belief in the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross and his taking upon himself all the sins of the world and paying the price for those sins. In doing that all of mankind who died before Jesus's blood atonement for the worlds sins and all of mankind from that time on could attain forgiveness for their sins. When Jesus ascended into heaven after his resurrection he drew everything up with himself. All those souls who were in hell who died before him were drawn up with him to heaven as he had atoned for their sins. They were forgiven.

In Scripture it states that Jesus rose on the third day after his death. Outside of the fact that the Jewish religion used the number three to denote " a short time" so we are not really certain if it truly was three days, but where was Jesus between the time he died on the cross until he rose from the dead? I was taught that Jesus descended into hell and that was part of the atonement for our sins. In fact that is part of the creed that is recited at mass in the RC church daily. That part of the creed goes, " He was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead."

It is late now and I am tired so I can't really explain it in more detail right now. So now having given you most of my reason for not believing in reincarnation maybe you guys can explain why you believe in it to me. Admittedly I am not real sure of the teaching of reincarnation so if maybe those of you here who do believe in it could explain to me why you believe in reincarnation and educate me more regarding the teachings of it would be helpful to me.

posted September 02, 2006 04:30 AM              

I am listening, Mannu give me some time, my thoughts on your post will come.

Silverstone

------------------
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

posted September 02, 2006 11:48 AM            

So Jesus descending in to hell may be a metaphor to guide those lost captains towards him.

So what do you think happens to people who die now? Are they also waiting in a transitory plane and waiting till judgement day? Are all muslimes destined to hell? I do not believe that. When Mother Mary appeared to St Bernadette. She said she promises to give her a better life in the next world and not in this life here on earth.

I believe that we are all flames of the soul of God. Some have dimmed flames after going and coming here and the flames are bright in others.

The jews believe that in three days the soul complete goes forever behind the veil and its impossible to come back alive. Hence Jesus deliberately waited till the 4th day when Lazarus died.

He died on the passover day on Friday, because Gods plan was that Jesus be the paschal lamb (sacrificial lamb).

Do you believe that we are all many incarnations of the one incarnation Adam? Jesus was the perfect incarnation of Adam. And Mary the perfect incarnation of Eve.

The mission was accomplished.

Have to go and run some errands. I will be back.

posted September 02, 2006 12:38 PM            

"Under the most rigorously controlled
conditions of pressure, temperature,
volume, humidity, and other variables,
the organism will
do as it damn well pleases."
~unknown

That may or may not be true. But, it is worth considering that the substance and nature of the organism itself is perhaps the most significant condition of all. There is an inner environment which influences us, just as surely as an outer one, and, it would appear, far more powerfully. But, can that which we call "ourselves" be said to exist within, any more than without? Perhaps we are nothing at all. Nothing but a concatenation of relationships, ever changing, never a static "I". How can we then be free? Even if we are free to do as we please, how could we be free to please as we please, so to speak?

posted September 02, 2006 01:09 PM            

"So bottomline do not make excuses by blaming God but make wise choices in your lives."

I think that is judgemental and hostile, to dismiss the logical arguments of those who disagree with you as mere "excuses". Whether you find these arguments convenient or not, you ought to refute or accept them on the basis of their merits as arguments. It is not logical to say to someone, "be wise", any more than it is to say "be beautiful", or "be tall". There are limits to our freedom, as there are limits to our beauty, our height, and our wisdom. If you are wise, you will ackowledge and work within those limits, not deny them for the sake of continuity and blind faith.

"I also believe that every one is driving a boat as a captain of that boat. The difference is that some of the captains know where they are going and some do not."

I agree. But let me ask you this...
How can someone who does not know where they are going, make a free choice about the direction they take? --
And, how can someone who does know where they are going, freely choose to go in the wrong direction?

I dare you to answer these questions,
without changing the subject.
Perhaps then we can stay on course,
and reach a mutual understanding.

posted September 02, 2006 02:01 PM              

All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

Yet, if experience has taught me one thing, it is that there is no one we can rely on in this world. Only ourselves and God. When all the noises have faded, only the quiet endures.

What to do with this? Therein lies choice/freedom.
Tune in/listen/remain innocent,or turn away/harden/close.
Each moment you can go either way.
Each breathing moment is freedom.
But I think the most natural of freedoms is our own divine natural impulse to hear divinity from within. This is why I believe that a harmonious balance between the free will of ourselves, in uniting with the free gift of God's flowing hope/will is ourselves in our most divine centeredness and Truth.
This centeredness of Being would not Be selfish or seperate from Oneness or only thought of pleasing oneself, but would be naturally inspired otherwise.

Why would you continue to give when you know there may not be appreciation?
Why would you hope without reliability or any proof that anything is meaningful?

Compassion?

The only freedom I care about is the freedom to do right;
the freedom to do wrong I am ready to part with.~ Thomas Henry Huxely

Compassion is freedom. Yes, natural, but so easily can it be suppressed by fears, conditioning, and distractions. Who would deny? God? Or the free will of our Selves?

Our focus manifests creation, just as God's. (or so I believe anyway)
Where do we place our focus? Is it clouded with personal agendas...with manipulation or restrictive conditionings from our environment and programming? Or is it more of a surrender of control? A surrender of expectation and reward? Most often for the most pure, unconditional and beautiful hope, we have floored ourselves in the dark well of hopelessness and risen again.
We would have found some unique striving place within our Spirit, entirely independant on reinforcement of One, which would endure all exhaustion of hope and because of it's detatched, yet simultaneous natural inclination from this divine place of perception (which brought God closer within), be inspired naturally to Unite again.

I know this is scattered, but just some rambling thoughts for now.

posted September 02, 2006 02:13 PM              

quote:

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I also believe that every one is driving a boat as a captain of that boat. The difference is that some of the captains know where they are going and some do not.
So Jesus descending in to hell may be a metaphor to guide those lost captains towards him.

So what do you think happens to people who die now? Are they also waiting in a transitory plane and waiting till judgement day? Are all muslimes destined to hell? I do not believe that. When Mother Mary appeared to St Bernadette. She said she promises to give her a better life in the next world and not in this life here on earth.

---

I agree about the boat analogy, Mannu. In fact some of us are not only missing a captain for our boat we are also missing our rudders. And the captain does need guidance all the time. I agree. That Jesus descended into hell may well be a metaphor as you stated. Who could know that Jesus spent three days in hell for certain?

What I think about people who die now and in the past is that they ( their souls ) live on for all eternity and due to what I said about forgiveness being attained for us through the acts of Jesus I think very few people live their eternal existance in a condition that we describe as being "hell." I do not think that either "heaven" or "hell" is an actual place. I think it is a state of eternal existance.

posted September 02, 2006 02:15 PM              

The debate regarding free will among philosophers who do believe in free will seems is centered on the question of both outer and inner constraints on our choices. The outer constraints would be the mores of society, laws, repressive governments, etc., being more restrictant in some societies than others, and the inner constraints being our psychological make-up.

My thoughts on that is that free will, in itself, is inate and has no constraints. We see that in how many people throughout the history of the world have rose up and fought the restraints on their freedom and gone against both societal mores and oppressive laws in an attempt to lift the veil of oppression on their freedom. Their choice was to live free or die. Free will and the constraints placed on it by outward sources is the very reason that oppression of any kind is so evil in it's nature. Outside of society's mores and repressive governments there is our human need to be accepted and approved of by our peers that can restrict our free will depending on how strong that need to be accepted and approved is in each individual. We can be self-oppressive as well by choice. However, the choice is ours to make as to whether or not we would rather be accepted and approved of by others or tow the line according to society and government restrictions or follow our own hearts and we can only make that choice due to our inate free will.

When it comes to inner constraints regarding our psychological make-up that gets tricky. In theological terms it amounts to how culpable we are for our actions. Culpability or blame for our actions depends on how knowledgable we are or how much effort we have taken to inform our conscience so that the decisions and choices we make are based on educated knowledge of why we behave as we do and our efforts to overcome the things within ourselves that prompt us to behave as we do. Culpability also takes into consideration mental conditions that we have no control over and for which there are no cures for. In Scripture the man who lived in the cave that Jesus encountered who terrorized all who passed his way by violently attacking them and who was said to be "possessed by a mulitude of demons" may well have been suffering from a severe mental condition. In Jesus' time possession by demons was used to describe many things from minor illnesses to raging insanity and to certain psychological behavior problems. There was no knowledge of psychology or medicine at that time as there is now. Culpability means how responsible a person is for their actions and the choices they make. It takes in a range from ignorance to mental capacity. These days with all the educational material available to us in all fields of study we can hardly use the saying "ignorance is bliss" as a cop out for our actions. My brother in law used to do that. He would say, "why did you tell me that because now I know." lol In other words he was saying that now that he knew he could no longer claim ignorance and for that reason he was now responsible for his actions. "To whom more is given, more is expected" is very true. On the other hand we cannot fault those who suffer with mental conditions that do not have cures and which cannot be controlled through medication for their actions. Their handicap in many ways does restrict their free will or free choice. It restricts their ability to inform their conscience to one degree or another. That's no fault of their own. With personality disorders that have resulted due to our experiences during formative years of our life and later we do have control over these days with the all the studies in psychology and the help of psychologists. However, the choice is ours to make through free will to take advantage of those tools. God gives us the tools. We make the choice as to whether or not we use those tools. Religion is also just a tool - the means and not the end in themselves. The rites and doctrines of each religion and church are only tools both offered as a form of worship and learning. Through our free will ignorance can also be a choice. An " I don't want to know" attitude or " I don't want to make the effort" attitude. We can choose ignorance.

It's my belief that God works in all of us depending on how open we are to him/her, how authentic we are, and our free will is also guided by our conscience - that Voice of God within all of us. However, we can as the result of our free will and the choices we make, kill our conscience or silence it. We do that with a pattern of silencing that Voice within in order to do what we choose or want to do without the feeling of guilt. Guilt is not a bad thing at all as it is often portrayed to be. Guilt is only not good if taken to excess. Guilt is a prompting, a message from our conscience that is telling us something is wrong here and we should think about it and address it. In effect it is that Voice within saying to us, " You know that you shouldn't do that or behave that way and you need to address it." Guilt is only bad if we become too strict on ourselves and unforgiving of ourselves and we become excessively reproaching of ourselves for any thing we do that we feel is wrong. Just as repressive or oppressive governments and societies can place constraints on our free will, we can also be repressive and oppressive on our free will ourselves. For that reason it is often necessary for us to question why we feel guilty. Is this coming from the Voice within - my conscience? Is it coming from my childhood and always being made to feel guilty by my parents for what I did wrong in their eyes? Is it coming from my fear of not being accepted and approved of by others? What exactly made me feel guilty?

Free will does make us responsible for our actions and choices but only depending on how culpable we are at the time or by psychological make-up. Often we do not even know what prompts our actions so that is why God, and only God really has the authority to judge our actions and hold us responsible for them. We can't really do that with ourselves most of the time much less do it with other people. We cannot even correctly judge ourselves because we do not know how culpable we were at the time we did what we did. How can we know what we have not yet learned? Mainly we can't judge because life is a constant learning process. Mainly the lessons we learn come about only through trial and error. What we are held responsible for is the fundamental we choice we make in life with our free will. That fundamental choice that will guide our journey through life is basically a simple one...to choose God or ourselves over God. If we make through our free will the fundamental choice of God, we may veer from that path of our journey from time to time, but we are always drawn and guided back to that one fundamental choice. Unless of course we choose through our free will to change that fundamental choice at some point.

As I mentioned to HSC before on a thread, put yourself in God's place for a moment. Imagine that you could control if others loved you and chose you over all else. Would you want to be loved because others had no choice but to love you? Or would you rather they loved you just because they wanted to love you based on their own choice to do so just because of who and what you are? I am certain that is why God chose to give us free will and make us in his image that way. I am not totally convinced that beings such as angels exist but I was taught that and I was taught that the angels also have free will. Because God did choose to make us in hid image by giving us free will means that he not only chose us through his Will to create us he wants us to also choose him based on our freedom to do so, not because we have no other choice. When you think about it we only have two choices to make in life, God or Ourselves over God, and everything else, all our life experiences will flow from those choices.

Since we posted at the same time, HSC, I edited this to say that maybe what I said here answers your questions:

quote:

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I agree. But let me ask you this...
How can someone who does not know where they are going, make a free choice about the direction they take? And, how can someone who does know where they are going, freely choose to go in the wrong direction?

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posted September 02, 2006 02:32 PM              

Free will is a mutual cooperation between our own inate free will and God. It cannot function any other way.