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Author
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Topic: Equality
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 02:55 AM
 
I know it says in the Bible that God made Man in his own image, but to me this doesn't make sense. Is man any more the microcosm of God than the birds, trees and animals? Is the genius of science superior in his soul essence and spirit to the mentally handicapped person, or is it just his body and biological brain? When great people suffer physically because of, say, an accident or a degenerative disease, where does their knowledge go do you think? And if you feel that it is only the biological body which has lost its connection to the knowledge, and not the soul, do you think perhaps,
it is possible that each and every living being
might be EQUAL?????  ------------------
If only we could feel and understand all each others feelings....then EMPATHY and LOVE would be law in itself. IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 03:05 AM
Is the ability to express our thoughts through language any proof of superiority, or is language just an illusion?Words, words......words are words, whatever language....even slang. For all words have been invented somewhere along the line. Just because some forms of language are highly regarded by those who have money and power, as opposed to "slang"......does that make them right? The prejudice goes as far even to discriminate against accents. These are all things we simply LEARN and THEREFORE repeat, for goodness sake. It has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence- only in how we make use of it. Just as intelligence itself is different altogether to WISDOM. You only have to look at the state of politics to understand that.
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 03:12 AM
In Tony Buzan's book, "Head First", he explains how, very generally, there are at least 10 different types of intelligence. (Tony Buzan is the creator of "mind-mapping" and books on how to master your I.Q).These are: 1) Create yourself- your creative intelligence 2) You and You- your personal intelligence 3) You and Them- your social intelligence 4) Heaven Knows!- your spiritual intelligence 5) Body Talk- your physical intelligence 6) Making Sense of your Senses- your sensual intelligence 7) Intelligent Sex- your sexual intelligence 8) Count on Yourself- your numerical intelligence 9) Mind the Gap- your spatial intelligence 10) The Power of Words- your verbal intelligence IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 03:20 AM
Perhaps it is beneficial to the soul to learn, through struggle, how to use and direct the physical body.But biological variations of this physical body are surely nothing to do with the actual value of the infinite flame of consciousness inside this actual body.
Shakespeare was born with the desire towards creativity, I would imagine.
But had he been raised by a pauper family with no books, no opportunity to read them and no-one to teach him to read, I doubt we would ever have heard of him in the sense that we have. Instead he would have made the best use of what he had to work with. Perhaps the creative spark/ fire of passion in him would have expressed itself in another way. Perhaps he would have become a notorious rebel or something like that. IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 06:06 AM
Hmmm......trying to think of things that may help solve the puzzle.Human beings have both a logical side of the brain and an intuitive/ instinctive side of the brain. *I'm trying to think of an animal that can use logic as well as intuition and "instinct". ("Intuition" and "instinct" are both very different things altogether, however they are said to come from the same part of the brain).
I know in my heart (not just believe but know) that animals have souls, and that many species feel all the emotions that we do. Animals are also capable of perceiving things that we can't, with senses that we don't have.
*Speaking of logic, many animals have been shown to be capable of solving quite complex puzzles and such (squirrels, pigeons, rats, primates, etc). If this isn't logic, then what is it? There were even some tests that pigeons managed a higher score on than the humans.
Hmm.
Ok. So as far as we know, both animals and humans are capable, to a certain extent, of expressing logic and intuition.
Humans, in general, to my own limited viewpoint, appear to be the species which uses "logic" in the most advanced way.
Animals, on the other hand, appear to possess MUCH more intuition than humans, apart from the rare few who are born with "gifts" of clairvoyancy and such. Whether or not the humans who have this perception have it as much as animals do.....who knows- but each and every sentient being is an individual, therefore each comparison must be unique to the individuals concerned.
Individuals....so we may all be- human animal or non-human animal.
And yet at the same time there is a life-force which connects us all.
"In every colour, there's the light. In every stone sleeps a crystal"- from "Dream of the Dolphin", by Enigma.
When the wise man named Jesus told us that we are all equal, did he mean this completely and absolutely?
Humans have souls.
Animals have souls. (Again, I am speaking from that sense of "knowing" as opposed to belief. I understand that there are some that will disagree, and you are entitled to your opinions. But I think most people who have any sort of true love; affinity for animals will know this).
If humans have souls and animals have souls, then how are humans different from animals in a way which is different from each species being different?
Chimpanzees have started to use tools in the wild and primates can be taught sign language and such.
So it is not difficult to see that given a length of time, other species could eventually develop technology too. What is the purpose of technology anyway? 
What is the real difference between humans and other animals?
Maybe we've just been around long enough to be able to think of making houses, cars, food additives, weapons, etc. Maybe, even, we came here from another planet????? http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/marte/esp_marte_3.htm
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 07:23 AM
Interesting articles about the psychic abilities of animals.
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa012201a.htm
http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/article.php?id=29 IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 07:38 AM
A Christian perspective- written by a lady who loves/ respects animals who also happens to be Roman catholic:
http://www.all-creatures.org/ca/ark-186soul.html If anybody finds any more interesting links regarding the definition of God making "man in his own image", etc- do let me know.  However, some of the arguments about animals not having personalities and such, simply have no facts to back them up. I know better. IP: Logged |
fayte.m
Knowflake Posts: 9128
From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 08:03 AM
I have witnessed far to many animals doing things that are not common to what most expect from them.
Things they were NOT taught!
I have had and have a cat(s) who all on their/his own..
have spontaneously taught themselves to:
Fetch
Open latches and turn doorknobs
Flush toilets
Drag their blanket and cover themselves for a nap
Bring their food to me including cans!
Use a stick or wand to poke under things to retrieve a lost toy.
Turn on the television.
Hitting snooze on the clock.
And many other things!
My iguannas had a distinct yes no communication. If they were given a choice of food they would shake their heads yes or no when asked. They loved certain music and would literally sway or dance to it.
When I told them I loved them they would smile and sigh and close their eyes. They loved having lullabies sang to them.
One would pick up her water bowl and tap on her tank with it until I refilled it.
Hide and seek was also a game both my cats(and my one now)and iguanna played/play without being taught,
Actually a blend of hide and seek and tag.
They came up and tapped me, made a purrrt or a grunt hiss and dashed off. I would find them and purrt or hiss back and go back to what I was doing and soon I'd get tagged, you're it again!
I had a 3 pound black toad who lived in a hollow in a tree base. I could whistle for him and he'd come out for treats of grubs I bought for him at a bait shop.
I have seen horses, dogs and other animals display unanimal like behaviours. A mother skunk, a wild one, would beg for treats from me and even though still able to spray, she never did for the 8 years she was around.
She thouhgt it was funny to tease the dogs in their kennel run though and would sashay about proudly walking by them making purry like sounds and snufflings. After awhile the dogs(one a 200 pound 3/4 white wolf)got used to her and stopped barking and watched her and the cats playing tag and gently wrestling with rapt fascination.
Animals have souls! Definitely!
I have spoken to too many disincarnate animals to think otherwise.
I work with folks who are having troubles with their pets. One person's new dog would not behave.
I was working with it when it said..."Blank"
is jealous! The owner would freak and say, "Oh my God! That was my dog I had to put down's
name!" I would then speak to the "dead" dog and confirm to the human that it was indeed that dog bothering their new living pet!
Like the dead dog would say.."she has MY blanket!" I would explain to it that it is no longer in body and ask the human to tell it they still loved it but to go play until it found a new body. Soon the problem would be resolved. I did not know anything about the dead dog nor that there had been one until the live dog told me about it.
Yeah...
Animals definitely are more than most think,
They consciously play, invent games, learn without being taught, see and get annoyed by ghosts, and do understand love and giving love. Animals mourn too. And make jokes.
 ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 12:00 PM
Nice stories.
They don't surprise me. So, from your point of view fayte, are the souls of animals equal to the souls of humans......or are we all "evolving"?
When I asked questions earlier about the meaning of the Bible when it says "God made man in his own image", I forgot to mention the Sumerian tablets- the oldest piece of literature in the world, as far as I know. 1000 years or so older than the Bible.
Zachariah Sitchin's interpretations of these tablets suggest that the human race today is what became of the genetic hybrid race a group of extra-terrestrials "created", long, long ago. They did this in order to have servants/ slaves who would work for them, gathering gold apparently (monatomic gold?). This is an extremely unsettling idea for most people as it goes against everything they have otherwise been taught and felt secure with. Faith is a powerful thing. It is a deeply painful experience to lose one's faith and have to start all over again, searching for new answers. Most people prefer to chose denial than to fully confront such possibilities. I haven't made a study of the Sumerian tablets myself, as I realize that there are hundreds of different ways to interpret something. Meanings may be abstract. Or they may be literal. If only there were a more reliable way to "tune into" the truth. If the ancients stored knowledge in crystals, I wonder when this knowledge will once more be shared with the world. Then there are the "Akashic Records" which is probably another name for "The Book Of Life".
I realize I'm rambling now, but I feel that these things are all crucial for man's excuse to use, abuse and exploit animals.
There is this deep-seated idea that people are superior to animals. There are many people who believe animals don't have souls. Other people aren't sure whether we can prove in the actual existence of a soul, but will make up all kinds of reasons for why they think that animals don't feel pain/ emotions in the same way we do. Perhaps these people haven't listened to, experienced, and read about all the things which absolutely prove otherwise.  IP: Logged |
fayte.m
Knowflake Posts: 9128
From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 12:42 PM
quote:
So, from your point of view fayte, are the souls of animals equal to the souls of humans......or are we all "evolving"?
All life is forever evolving.
I will get back to you later on the rest.
 ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 12:47 PM
Forgive me for being "long-winded". It's my moon in Libra. IP: Logged |
fayte.m
Knowflake Posts: 9128
From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted November 07, 2007 06:52 PM
I see nothing to forgive you for here!
I rather enjoyed and read it all twice!   ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 08, 2007 05:59 PM
Why can't I make the world see and understand these things? To show kindness, respect, appreciation and understanding to each other and animals? IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 11, 2007 04:15 PM
I think people ought to think about these things.As JDM said, WAKE UP! IP: Logged |
zanya
Knowflake Posts: 148
From:
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted November 11, 2007 04:47 PM
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zanya
Knowflake Posts: 148
From:
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted November 11, 2007 04:48 PM
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zanya
Knowflake Posts: 148
From:
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted November 11, 2007 04:49 PM
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 11, 2007 05:11 PM
  
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 11, 2007 05:13 PM
 In a zoo in California, a mother tiger gave birth to a rare set of triplet tiger cubs. Unfortunately, due to complications in the pregnancy, the cubs were born prematurely and due to their tiny size, they died shortly after birth. The mother tiger after recovering from the delivery, suddenly started to decline in health, although physically she was fine. The veterinarians felt that the loss of her litter had caused the tigress to fall into a depression. The doctors decided that if the tigress could surrogate another mother's cubs, perhaps she would improve. After checking with many other zoos across the country, the depressing news was that there were no tiger cubs of the right age to introduce to the mourning mother. The veterinarians decided to try something that had never been tried in a zoo environment. Sometimes a mother of one species will take on the care of a different species. The only orphans" that could be found quickly, were a litter of weaner pigs. The zoo keepers and vets wrapped the piglets in tiger skin and placed the babies around the mother tiger. Would they become cubs or pork chops?? Take a look........ you won't believe your eyes!!   
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ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 11, 2007 05:16 PM
   IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 11, 2007 05:31 PM
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad world needs.I am the voice of the voiceless:
Through me, the dumb shall speak;
Till the deaf world's ear be made to hear
The cry of the wordless weak. From street, from cage and from kennel,
From jungle and stall, the wail
Of my tortured kin proclaims the sin
Of the mighty against the frail. For love is the true religion,
And love is the law sublime;
And all that is wrought, where love is not
Will die at the touch of time. Oh, shame on the mothers of mortals
Who have not stopped to teach
Of the sorrow that lies in dear, dumb eyes,
The sorrow that has no speech. The same Power formed the sparrow
That fashioned man - the King;
The God of the whole gave a living soul
To furred and to feathered thing. And I am my brother's keeper,
And I will fight his fight;
And speak the word for beast and bird
Till the world shall set things right. Voice Of The Voiceless, by Ella Wheeler Wilcox IP: Logged |
Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake Posts: 5481
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted November 11, 2007 05:45 PM
Interesting thoughts. Keep seeking.There are indeed many forms of "intelligence",
and, for a number of good reasons,
we ought to learn our own strengths and weaknesses;
and, conversely, the weaknesses and strengths of others. For one thing,
we ought not to think ourselves equal in some area
in which we are actually deficient or gifted. And if we recognized our own gifts,
and how they are not given to everyone,
we would be more understanding of others,
and not expect others to have our gifts.
The only time the word "equal" was spoken by Christ, according to the KJV:
"And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." We are equal in spirit, but,
in spirit, we are not distinct.
In spirit, there is no marriage, death,
no boys or girls, brains or hearts,
intuition or instinct, humans or animals, etc. The questions:
Is spirit the only level?
Is it one of many levels?
Is it just the other side of the coin?
Does progress exist, etc. If we agree that all people are equal,
does this mean we have to agree
that all people have equal gifts? Or that all gifts of the same kind
are granted in the same degree,
or else compensated for with other gifts... What gifts did Hitler have,
that, taken as a whole,
were equal to Shakespeare's? As I see it,
if you try to balance the scales that way,
you will probably end up arguing against yourself.
If you need people to be equal,
in order to love them equally,
you may be in trouble. I think maybe the whole thing is off-balance,
and the real purpose is not balancing the accounts,
but, learning to love the imbalance. I think we do need to distinguish between
the person, and the gifts of the person.
And to value some gifts more,
or accord them more priority, than others.
This may deflate some egos, and puff-up some others,
but it is seems to me the logical and practical way. As I've said, one way to make sense of this,
so that we do not confuse the valuation of gifts
with the valuation of souls,
is to understand Determinism. Nuff said. And, yes, I do think animals are extremely soulful. IP: Logged |
Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake Posts: 5481
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted November 11, 2007 05:58 PM
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:- 2 Cor 8:14 IP: Logged |
ListensToTrees
Knowflake Posts: 2184
From: the capricious clouds, in the land formerly known as Albion
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 11, 2007 07:56 PM
Jesus lived thousands of years ago. Who knows what he said and what he didn't say? Does that make it right?In any case.......... What I mean by equality......... quote:
"Close one eye to see with the other."
Close both eyes to see with the third;
(Or close the second eye
to see with the first eye again,
for the first time?).
That's what I mean by equality, if you get my meaning. If you think of people as being like snowflakes; each with their own unique vibration......each with their own unique beauty. quote:
"Close one eye to see with the other."
Close both eyes to see with the third;
(Or close the second eye
to see with the first eye again,
for the first time?).
And we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. They say what God gives with one hand, he takes with another. Mentally handicapped people are special, for example. (There is a beautiful french film called "the 8th day" about a young lad with down's syndrone; his beauty; his innocence). The way in which a person (like Hitler) choses to polarize their talents is another matter altogether. IP: Logged |
artlovesdawn
Knowflake Posts: 1025
From: midwest USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 12, 2007 11:05 PM
I think about this question a lot too.This summer I got a book called Judaism in a Nutshell where the author describes the world in the same way that I was taught by Christians. I wish I had the book in front of me to quote it, but it said that God created man in the likeness of God, with the ability to create like God, and the angels were so in awe that at first they thought man was a God. According to that belief system God created everything, all angels and creatures, but only man has the God-like ability to co-create with God. I believe that everything is equal; but now I am also considering the possibility that man might be slightly different due to man's ability to co-create. This does not mean that I believe angels and animals and stones and stars are lesser creatures than man. I still believe we are all equal -- but I'm considering the possibility that we might have one different ability. Equal but different. What do you think? IP: Logged | |
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