posted October 08, 2007 10:31 PM              

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Greetings, Juniperb!

I have most translations on hand.

I use here KJV. I also like George M. Lamsa`s Translation.

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Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year....
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep. ~Robert Frost

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posted October 08, 2007 10:34 PM              

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quote:

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I use here KJV. I also like George M. Lamsa`s Translation.

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Same here.

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"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 08, 2007 10:37 PM              

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Greetings~

Juniperb...

Some of them I quoted from this site, so not sure what translation on a few: http://www.apocalipsis.org/t12-war-heaven.htm

You may want to check it out, I am sure is in the reference section of the web page!

Cheers

------------------
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year....
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep. ~Robert Frost

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posted October 08, 2007 10:40 PM              

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Juniperb, same here: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

I mostly use KJV and George M. Lamsa`s Translation.

------------------
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year....
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep. ~Robert Frost

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Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 09, 2007 09:14 AM            

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Greetings Silverstone, then we are in agreement?

My desire is for others to walk cleanly thru these pages being able to reference the Holy Texts we cite. Our perspectives, if we state them as such, are just that: perspective

It helps create a flame free (well as close as we can get) discussion.

I noted this chapter discrepency; it took but a moment to figure out why and it is one of the easiest mistakes we make ... typos, it correctly would read: Revelations 22:16

quote:

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Revelation 21:16 "I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."

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Revelations 21:16 KJV( comparing the quote`s chapter reference)

And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Revelations 22:16 KJV (matching chapter to quote )

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

I only cited one translation as it is easy to verify. We are not confused, but one can clearly see how another could be.

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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posted October 09, 2007 09:51 AM              

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quote:

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Over 450 versions of the Bible have been created over time.

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That's quite the haystack!

Let the needle hunting commence!!

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posted October 09, 2007 10:15 AM              

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silverstone

quote:

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Some of them I quoted from this site, so not sure what translation on a few: http://www.apocalipsis.org/t12-war-heaven.htm

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They use the NIV. http://www.apocalipsis.org/niv.htm

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 09, 2007 10:24 AM              

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quote:

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That's quite the haystack!

Let the needle hunting commence!!

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------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 09, 2007 10:30 AM              

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http://www.nobeliefs.com/

http://www.nobeliefs.com/index.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/freethinkers.htm

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 09, 2007 10:37 AM            

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Being the curious cat that I am

I looked at NIV for the Revelations chapter 21:16 vs 22:16

Rev 21:16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[fn1]in length, and as wide and high as it is long.

Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[fn1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Thank you for the links Fayte!

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posted October 09, 2007 10:48 AM              

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You are most welcome juniperb!

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 09, 2007 11:16 AM              

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juniperb:

quote:

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Knowflake
Posts: 6450
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Mar 2002
posted October 09, 2007 09:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings Silverstone, then we are in agreement?

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Indeed

quote:

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They use the NIV. http://www.apocalipsis.org/niv.htm

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Thanks, Fayte

------------------
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year....
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep. ~Robert Frost

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posted October 09, 2007 12:01 PM              

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Let's not forget all the additions and subtractions throughout the years due to politics, and/or those who thought they knew best for all the people thinking that they "weren't" good enough for that esoteric knowledge, etc. That does cause some problems as well in trying to find the true meaning of these writings.

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The good life, as I conceive it, is a happy life. I do not mean that if you are good you will be happy - I mean that if you are happy you will be good. ~ Bertrand Russell

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posted October 09, 2007 01:34 PM              

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quote:

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Let's not forget all the additions and subtractions throughout the years due to politics, and/or those who thought they knew best for all the people thinking that they "weren't" good enough for that esoteric knowledge, etc. That does cause some problems as well in trying to find the true meaning of these writings.

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Indeed!
That is one thing I have posted before about and wish to look into more and discuss. More has been removed than is included. And the changes run into tens of thousands. Then take into account what is allegory, midrash, redactions, scribal errors, scribal changes, bad translations by those not well learned in
other languages, what is symbolic, what is metaphor, what is literal, dream, vision, and the list of "what does it mean" goes on.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 09, 2007 01:52 PM              

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There have been at least some 75,000 word changes.
And that is in addition to omitted books, and accidental and intentional changes.

A good read:

Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (Plus)
by Bart D. Ehrman

Format Paperback
Published 02/06/2007
Categories Christianity, General, Religion & Spirituality, Religious Studies
Publisher HarperOne
ISBN 0060859512
Pages 272
Description
For almost 1,500 years, the New Testament manuscripts were copied by hand––and mistakes and intentional changes abound in the competing manuscript versions. Religious and biblical scholar Bart Ehrman makes the provocative case that many of our widely held beliefs concerning the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, and the divine origins of the Bible itself are the results of both intentional and accidental alterations by scribes.
In this compelling and fascinating book, Ehrman shows where and why changes were made in our earliest surviving manuscripts, explaining for the first time how the many variations of our cherished biblical stories came to be, and why only certain versions of the stories qualify for publication in the Bibles we read today. Ehrman frames his account with personal reflections on how his study of the Greek manuscripts made him abandon his once ultra–conservative views of the Bible.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 09, 2007 10:33 PM              

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BUMP....

Hmmm, I haven't read that book, Fayte... I've seen it at the bookstore, it looks interesting...

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posted October 09, 2007 10:51 PM              

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Misquoting Jesus, I like the title~

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posted October 10, 2007 12:04 AM              

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Thanks silverstone!
Yeah a good read!

Mannu and Dean......
I will reply to your initial posts when I get time.
After todays debacle I am even more leery of opening up and getting a bit paranoid again that what I say will be taken wrong.

You both made some real valid points and gave food for thought.
I want to reply as carefully, clearly, and succinctly as possible.
Later fellows!
Its been a long day.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~

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posted October 10, 2007 11:43 AM              

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posted October 10, 2007 04:21 PM              

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There is a difference between art and art history. The latter is a division of history, not art. Being an artist and being a researcher of art history are very different things. The same is true of being religious/spiritual, and studying the history of religion/spirituality.

A person may know a great deal about the history of art, and not be an artist. A person may know nothing of art history, and be a master artist. Likewise, with religion/spirituality.

When I read this thread, I see that it is full of history. It is interesting, it is even compelling, but it is history. It is not spirituality. It is the difference between reading a biography of the master, and reading the masterpiece, or between writing the biography, and writing the masterpiece.

I do admire the analytical intelligence I see in people who are able to penetrate these subjects, but I have to wonder sometimes what the point is. What greater purpose does it serve, if not to debunk the superstitions of fundamentalists (whom you have asked not to enter the discussion; thereby defeating that purpose)?

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Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 10, 2007 04:57 PM            

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quote:

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Seriously. Tell me, my dear historians, why is it fun? I'm a four-year-old. Teach me .

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But I already knew that

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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posted October 10, 2007 05:54 PM              

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posted October 10, 2007 08:30 PM              

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Why HSC, my dear brother, I see you've made much progress since our last meeting!

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posted October 10, 2007 10:29 PM              

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Are you making fun of me?
How's that working for you?

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posted October 10, 2007 11:32 PM              

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not at all.

I think you well worth the time and trouble.

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