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Author
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Topic: ~RETHINKING THE BIBLE~
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fayte.m
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 08:23 AM
 
www.zeitgeistmovie.com ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
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Unmoved
Knowflake Posts: 2196
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted October 25, 2007 09:59 AM
to add to fayte.m's above post.
http://singinginthereign.blogspot.com/2007/07/zeitgeist-movie-is-christianity.html IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 11:11 AM
I'm going to try to say this as gently as possible as I don't wish to offend anyone. This is a wonderful example of the confusion that occurs when spiritual matters are looked upon with a thoroughly materialistic eye. I don't know who wrote it, but he/she appears to be seriously lacking in a esoteric education of any valid sort. The theory is an old one, bantered about now and again, and invariably lauded as "earth-shattering" or "revolutionary" or some such nonsense. It would be amusing if not for its potential to confuse the beginner or casual viewer. I suppose all we can do is hope that it's a first step toward a deeper understanding. I won't get into the scholarly inaccuracies. "A little learning is a dangerous thing" Pope IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 12:21 PM
I do not agree entirely with his biblical rant, he should have done better research, but I see the point he was trying to make.
No more than I buy all the story here: www.tombofjesus.com
But I do know I also buy very little as literal in the bible(s).
------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 04:03 PM
I'm not certain what you might mean by "literal". At any rate, I would say that those approaching the either Old or New Testament as an historical document will find themselves bitterly disappointed. Put simply, it's just not the point of the thing.I've come across the India theory in the past and found it lacking, as I'm sure you can imagine. A quick peek into this website and I've turned up nothing. Willing to point me to what you found worthwhile? IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 04:37 PM
I feel he did go to India and Persia as a teenager and young twenties. Then again after he escaped the crucifixion, where he lived for the rest of his life.
I do not believe it is his tomb though.
As much mythos was added to that story as the biblical versions. The Islamic writings have some of the story too. But no one in my opinion has written yet of the real story.
They all have tiny pieces of the puzzle but it is all messed up, wrong times, people, places, and events. Only the insider group knew what really happened and they did not document it. So what is left are bits of oral tellings warped and confused generations later. Just like the Merlin stories. Oh there was indeed a Merlin too, but his real story is confused with the stories of a few others, and re-tellings got it all mixed together until 3 or 4 men became an amalgam of one.
And story tellers of the past did often exaggerate
As long as Yeshua is seen as a deity the real story of an amazing man, his family and true close friends, will remain hidden or unaccepted by many.------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
Petron
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 06:04 PM
you're onto something there fayte!!!keep blazing that trail you're on and never look back!!  IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 25, 2007 06:05 PM
Fayte.m, I am unclear about this: quote:
As much mythos was added to that story as the biblical versions. The Islamic writings have some of the story too.
Do you mean the Quran speaks of Jesus`s life in India? Or that he lived a full life after Crucifixion? thanks   ------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 06:58 PM
http://www.geocities.com/athens/delphi/1340/jesus_in_india.htm
http://almuslimin.org/ISLAAM/Jesus-son-of-Mary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/articles/GSJesusinQuran/GSJesusinQuran.html ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 07:11 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuz_Asaf
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Gospel-of-Judas---Jesus-Was-Not-Crucified&id=179434
http://www.quransearch.com/crucified.htm
http://www.quransearch.com/ac24.htm#links
http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_historicaljesus.htm ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 25, 2007 07:59 PM
I see the links and will look into them But, my question remains unanswered. India or the Crucifixion? A heads up on which one I am seeking will help, yes?
thanks! ------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 08:20 PM
I find no contradiction between the Quran and the Bible.
I feel perhaps the first step here is to acknowledge and understand the difference between the Body and the flesh. The second might be to decipher the meaning of "To raise up". At that point, the Muslim and Christian views begin to compliment and illuminate each other perfectly. Taken together they both offer a greater understanding of the event.I must say, I find a few of those sites to be of a somewhat dubious nature. Sadly, the Quran is as open to misinterpretation as are the Gospels. Too often they are used as a means to divide, to spread fear and distrust. IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
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posted October 25, 2007 08:55 PM
quote:
Do you mean the Quran speaks of Jesus`s life in India? Or that he lived a full life after
quote:
But, my question remains unanswered. India or the Crucifixion?A heads up on which one I am seeking will help, yes?
thanks!
Not sure what you want a "heads up" on....
No, the Quran does not say anything specific on that issue..of India to my knowlege.
quote:
I find no contradiction between the Quran and the Bible.
http://islamunveiled.info/Jesus.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Ahmadiyya/notovich.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya
http://markmason.net/ch4ex2.htm
http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/legends.htm#V The first Muslim writer known to have included the tradition of Jesus having traveled to India in his youth with the tradition that he, as Yuz Asaf, had traveled in southwest Asia in the latter half of the first century, was the 10th-century historian, Shaikh Al-Said. 41
http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/legends.htm#41 Within the Holy Quran there are many verses discussing Jesus, and often Mary also, but these either deal with the Nativity or his Palestinian ministry, or contain no definite geographical and temporal context. A possible exception, however, is Surah 23:50, a translation of which reads: And We made the son of Marium [Mary] and his mother a sign, and We gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs. Since Israel is not noted for having lofty ground with meadows and springs, this verse suggests a different location, and if shelter was needed, it indicates they were traveling. ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 25, 2007 09:26 PM
Thank you Fayte I agree with tink on the links being dubious at best. But, then again, we are at the mercy of them if we haven`t studied the Holy Texts. I am aware of the Islamic belief of who and what Jesus was/is. Also, confident the Quran doesn`t mention a visit or stay to India. The Holy Texts do tell us who Jesus was and what he did.
If one could read them as the authors wrote them, ie with the esoteric understanding that they had, a whole different picture would present us Jesus the Christ. I find no contradiction between the Quran and the Bible either.. It`s all in understanding the intent of the author. Is it what or how we read ??
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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
|
posted October 25, 2007 09:39 PM
You are welcome!
I like it all as food for thought but do not buy into much of what has been written.
------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
|
posted October 25, 2007 10:34 PM
Answering Islam would be one of the dubious sites.  I've spent more hours than I care to remember inspecting its wares ... and that of its sister site as well, Answering Christianity. A tangled web, to be sure. And that's giving it the benefit of the doubt.Again, many of these sites offer articles written by those without the occult training to discern true meaning from the events and "facts" which they relate. For instance, Mark Mason clearly does not grasp the truth behind such statements as his "...the Bible says Jesus' body was not subject to any decay." Additionally, he more than misses the mark when citing Jesus' reference to Jonah (a worthy reference and full of profundity). His lack of understanding has brought him to a false conclusion. As for the assorted Muslim writers ... well I think them no different than their Christian counterparts. Some I find worthy and some I don't. Some speak Truth from a place of Certainty ... and some don't. I try not to confuse the commentator with the original work being commented upon. What a Muslim commentator has to say is very often quite a bit different than what the Quran has to say. I daresay as many Muslims misunderstand the Quran's account of the Crucifixion as Christians misunderstand the Gospel's account. And We made the son of Marium [Mary] and his mother a sign, and We gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs. quote:
Since Israel is not noted for having lofty ground with meadows and springs, this verse suggests a different location, and if shelter was needed, it indicates they were traveling.
Israel is also very often referred to as "the Land of Milk and Honey". As we agreed, the Bible is rarely to be taken literaly. It is most often a symbolic work. Thank you for all the links. Food for thought, as you say. I read most of them. I was surprised to find these two. Have you read these?
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/articles/GSJesusinQuran/GSJesusinQuran.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Ahmadiyya/notovich.htm
IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
|
posted October 25, 2007 11:20 PM
Yes I read them and most of the books on the various bib lists.
I was trying to find things to corroborate my dreams and visions.
------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
|
posted October 26, 2007 09:39 AM
I carefully read 2 of the links fayte.m provided.
They satisfy in the fact they both contradict the theories that Jesus went to India and there is a contradiction between the Holy Quran and Holy Bible. http://www.answering-islam.org/Ahmadiyya/notovich.htm Completely contradicts the theory Jesus went to India. Exerpt: quote:
In 1895 J.A. Douglas, a professor at Government College in Agra, India retraced Notovitch's steps to Tibet. He interviewed the Head Abbot at the Monastery where Notovitch claimed the scrolls were. Douglas obtained an affidavit from the Abbot denouncing Notovitch's story as a lie. Douglas established there were no scrolls about St Issa or Jesus. He published his findings in the popular monthly journal The Nineteenth Century (The Chief Lama of Himis on the Alleged Unknown Life of Christ April 1896).
The other link;
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/articles/GSJesusinQuran/GSJesusinQuran.html It also completely debunks the support for the theory/ believing a contradiction between the Quran and Bible exists. Exerpt: quote:
But contrary to the Hadith interpretation of the Qur’anic verse, and contrary to the translation mentioned above, and to the erroneous interpretation rendered by Abdullah Yussuf Ali, the Qur’an does not deny the death and Crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah. In fact the Aramaic language of the Qur’an is identical to the story of Crucifixion mentioned in the New Testament.
Thanks for the exercise Fayte, sharpens the intellect and helps root out mythos!!
------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
|
posted October 26, 2007 09:55 AM
Brain Candy is good stuff!
But I only tasted it, still won't swallow 90%+ of anything written on the issue to date. It just does not taste right; no matter what source. I feel they are all more wrong than right.  ------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
|
posted October 26, 2007 10:03 AM
And as you can see, there are ones who say yay and nay to all the theories but none I feel have a firm leg to stand on.
They cannot all be right...they cannot all be wrong....but they sure can convolute and misinterpret and refuse to see what bits from each are real parts of the puzzle.
------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
|
posted October 26, 2007 10:27 AM
I do agree there fayte. quote:
but they sure can convolute and misinterpret and refuse to see what bits from each are real
What parts of the 2 links you provided do you believe supports the theory Jesus went to India and the Holy Quran and Holy Bible contradict each other? Will you share your interpretation of the 2 links in connection to your provision of support for the theories? ------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
fayte.m
unregistered
|
posted October 26, 2007 08:05 PM
Food for thought.Beware a jealous lord who tells you that the Bringer of Light and Wisdom is evil. And from an atheist site: 
------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
IP: Logged |
Happy Dragon
unregistered
|
posted October 26, 2007 09:12 PM
re:
***Since Israel is not noted for having lofty ground with meadows and springs,***
depends Where in israel .. it is very diverse .. from desert to lush greenery ..
yes it sure does have meadows and springs ..
pic ..the 'spring' source of the river jordan .. Tel Dan and Banias ..
maybe this site will give an idea of the geography ..
~ http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tourist+Information/Discover+Israel/Geography+and+Nature.htm ~IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
|
posted October 26, 2007 10:15 PM
Happy Dragon, what a nice surprise to see you
here ! Thank you for the lovely link and pic! Yes, Israel has a diverse and beautiful climate. Even the mundane wikipedia has a rather nice summery of it. Meadows and springs are most certainly a part of the diversity. ------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 7396
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
|
posted October 26, 2007 10:16 PM
I do agree there fayte.
quote:
but they sure can convolute and misinterpret and refuse to see what bits from each are real
What parts of the 2 links you provided do you believe supports the theory Jesus went to India and the Holy Quran and Holy Bible contradict each other? Will you share your interpretation of the 2 links in connection to your provision of support for the theories? ------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged | |
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