Posts: 9809
From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 08:20 PM         

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Unmoved!

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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posted October 30, 2007 08:27 PM         

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fayte.m

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posted October 30, 2007 08:30 PM         

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Like I really want to get into this but...

I think there is a difference between a smart-ass comment and "rude". People often think you are rude, Fayte, but often you just "tell it like it is," (I think that's how you put it) and I just see it as the way you "talk".

We all have different ways of expressing annoyance and it is bound to happen.

"You've heard about the fury of a woman scorned, haven't you?"

"Well, that's nothing compared to the fury of a woman cheated out of tricks or treats."

(guess what is on the television behind me?)

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posted October 30, 2007 08:31 PM         

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UnMoved, I still haven't read it but I'm sure I will get it. Your writing seems well done. I can appreciate that.

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posted October 30, 2007 08:46 PM         

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Great post, Unmoved!

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posted October 30, 2007 08:54 PM         

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Thank you.

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted October 30, 2007 09:03 PM         

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Unmoved,

Maybe I did misunderstand you.

I havent read your article, but I will.

quote:

---

If anything is absolute, it would have to be the the fact that nothing is absolute to me.

---

I'm not going to point out the obvious here.

I'll just say that this is a logical error.

Like,
"Everything is a lie, including this statement."

In any case,
I probably do not hold to more absolutes than you.
Actually, I'm really a one-trick pony.
I've got one thing, one idea,
which no matter how I flip it,
it always turns up heads.

If you want to discuss it, we can.

In short:

Every thing has a reason for being such as it is,
and for not being otherwise than it is;
everything is determined;
All is One.

There are other things that make a lot of sense to me,
but which I do not claim to know absolutely.

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posted October 30, 2007 09:22 PM         

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HSC

When I said this:

quote:

---

If anything is absolute, it would have to be the the fact that nothing is absolute to me.

---

I was speaking for myself, expression what "I" think, not what anyone else thinks.

This is an error in my logic, you say?

Well, so be it. It just so happens that I make a lot of errors, therefore it doesn't surprise me that this could be one of those moments.

It makes sense to me currently, so... I guess I'll see it as an error (just as you see it) when I know different than I do now.

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted October 30, 2007 09:32 PM         

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Fayte,

You see arrogance and rudeness.
I see provocativeness.
Sometimes I think you see evil everywhere.

quote:

---

Your stuff is hypotheticals and rehashings of biblical writings and other writings.
And you are sorry her "knowledge" is hypothetical.????????????
What?????? So do you think yours is not?????????????
OK for discussion and debate,
but far from any valid evidence to it being real knowledge or truth.
None of that is proof.
No more than anyone here has any empirical evidence.
I do not.
And neither do you.

---

I claim to know one thing absolutely.

There are other things that make great sense to me,
but I do not claim to know them absolutely.
In either case, I invite scrutiny.

As I see it, theology is just philosophy in the form of analogy. So I approach it that way, as a philosopher, and, yes, I clothe much of my philosophy in the language of Christian Symbolism, even as I seek to reinterpret this language. My thinking is not hypotheticals and rehashings, and, in fact, most of the insights I have had into the symbols, parables, etc., is purely original (i.e. was never told to me, and I've yet to hear them repeated).

I have explained my view of "God" to you enough times now for you to see that my view is a thousand times closer to your own, and to agnosticism, than it is to any officially sanctioned church dogma. If there are elements that strike you as echoes from wise men of the past, it is because wisdom is wisdom. I am not trying to be original, I'm trying to be wise. Christianity is "rehashed" Neo-Platonism and Stoicism, which in turn "reahashed" other stuff. Thats how it goes. You get the truths out there. We are talking about abstract ideas which were understood by various peoples at various times, but they are the same ideas "rehashed". The fact that you remain so obtuse to my position suggests to me that you dont even have the faintest inkling what I am talking about when I speak of eternal verities and metaphysical laws, that all you ever grasp about religion is the outer form, and all you care to know about Jesus is what brand of sandal he wore, and materialistic bull like that. Here is an example of what I'm talking about:

"Bad bread, you say? Just wait for it.
Hunger will make even the coarsest bread soft
and of the finest flavor."
~ Seneca

Its philosophy.

And the sayings in the gospel,
and the parables, Fayte, -
most of them are philosophy too.
Thats all I've ever tried to show,
that many verses in the bible have direct
correlaries in the writings of philosophers.
The dogma was added later.
I leave it out.

The most evident principles I have found in the Gospel,
suggest determinism, interconnectedness, and oneness;
all of which are related ideas.

But I have not used the bible to make this case.
I do not even care if people realize that the words of Christ
were indeed deterministic philosophy
disguised in parables and analogies.

What is truly important to me is to illustrate,
by the use of simple reason,
the undeniable logic of determinism.

If the theological terms throw you,
throw them off.
My message is not dependent on them.

hsc

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 09:37 PM         

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quote:

---

I think there is a difference between a smart-ass comment and "rude".

---

So it was a smart ass comment? I take smart ass as when it is not meant and rude when it sounds pompous or condescending. It just read to me like HSC was looking down on Unmoved as if he had all the answers and her thoughts were nothing. Maybe I took it wrong. Only HSC knows what he meant by it I guess.

quote:

---

People often think you are rude, Fayte,

---

I try not to be. But I guess it is part and parcel of discussing controversial topics. Some people may see someone's words as rude another as sarcasm, another as kidding and another as yeah..they have a point.
Cannot please everyone hey?

HSC

quote:

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Fayte,

You see arrogance and rudeness.
I see provocativeness.
Sometimes I think you see evil everywhere.

---

Sorry..I saw it as condescending/rude not provocative.
And what is the deal with you so often accusing me of seeing evil everywhere?
I did not call you evil.
Please stop judging me already. I hesitate to reply to you very often anymore because it is usually an exasperating exercise in futility
for me. When I agree with you I try to reply and when not I try of late to ignore you.
You have too many times taken even my sincere heart felt compliments of you, to you as grievous insults. I have never understood your reactions then.
When I read your posts sometimes it reminds me of a bill before congress..you know..the ones where they bundle several opposing things into one package, take it all or none? So even when I see wisdom and great things come from you and I agree, I have to ignore the whole because in between are those bits I do not endorse.
I am really trying my best to get along with you. But I still felt you insulted Unmoved.
But it did not bother her so forget it hey?

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 09:43 PM         

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quote:

---

We all have different ways of expressing annoyance and it is bound to happen.

---

True.

quote:

---

"You've heard about the fury of a woman scorned, haven't you?"

---

Not sure what that has to do with all this.

quote:

---

"Well, that's nothing compared to the fury of a woman cheated out of tricks or treats."

---

Ok..youv'e totally lost me now!

quote:

---

(guess what is on the television behind me?)

---

Have not had tv for over a decade or so. No idea on that.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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posted October 30, 2007 09:55 PM         

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Sorry, my daughter was watching It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown. That line just happened to come up when I was typing and thinking of time when I have been annoyed myself. I thought it was funny. "God" often pokes fun at me in that manner, or I poke fun at myself is just as accurate.
Thanks for the cool-headed response. You are right, only he knows, we all take things whatever way we want to according to our thoughts and mood, I suppose, when it comes to things like that.

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posted October 30, 2007 10:06 PM         

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fayte.m

'funny thing is, it was only when you pointed it out that I noticed that I was meant to be insulted.

I seem to be unmoved today.

hsc

If that was the intention, I truly wonder why you would be condescending to me.

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:07 PM         

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I know the comic strip! I get it now!
I think with HSC and myself it is our charts are so similar yet so different. We either totally click or not on things it often seems.

HSC.....now take this as a compliment please!
I am not kidding!
It would be intriguing to see where your head is at say 20 years from now! So shall we set a date?
Unless I am living on Mars by then.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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posted October 30, 2007 10:09 PM         

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I didn't see the end part to your first post... I think he may have been reacting to the you posted. I, myself, hate the the It is total disapproval.

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:13 PM         

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Are you playing with my head?
What is the difference between disapproval and total disapproval? I did not have a naughty naughty shaking finger to use to say..not nice not nice insulting Unmoved like that.
Of course I disapproved.
BTW a to me means...alrighty then...ok..let it go lets move on not worth discussing....it was taken to seriously harshly not as intended...but there is no gentle chiding smiley here to use......

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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posted October 30, 2007 10:19 PM         

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UnMoved, this is only my perspective, which has been VERY WRONG often enough in the past... but I thought you were using the same "tone" on HSC in the original thread right before he posted that to you (which I realized after speaking more to you that you were not and there was some sort of miscommunication) so I think that is why that was his first reaction. I noticed you did not take offense so I was glad it was resolved. Then Fayte had to open her big mouth.... !!!! hehe I am teasing in kind-hearted way. It did appear to me that you were looking for trouble, Fayte, when you first posted that... but maybe... just maybe... you were just trying to heroically support UnMoved in the face of what you saw was an injustice. I have seen HSC do the same for others so I'm sure he could appreciate that if he could sense and trust that was your true intention.
God only Knows... eh? It's between ourselves and God they say.

I guess the bottom line is that we are all trying our best.
And according to determinism, this is the best we can do anyway so we might as well just accept it.

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:20 PM         

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Unmoved

quote:

---

fayte.m

'funny thing is, it was only when you pointed it out that I noticed that I was meant to be insulted.

I seem to be unmoved today.

hsc

If that was the intention, I truly wonder why you would be condescending to me.

---

Well...now that you see what I thought I saw...as an insult to you....
I would like HSC to tell us exactly what he meant by saying to you:

quote:

---

I'm sorry if your "knowledge" is hypothetical.

hsc

---

I mean why else would he be sorry your knowledge is hypothetical?????????????

Ok..HSC...please explain.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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posted October 30, 2007 10:28 PM         

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Cool, Fayte. No, I am not messing with your head. I am just thinking of differences in what people value and see as loving behavior. If someone said to you, "I disapprove of what you said" you might not find it as offensive as if someone said, "I don't CARE what you think, Fayte."
Others find it more offensive if you are disapproving.

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posted October 30, 2007 10:28 PM         

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MM...

I can see what fayte.m saw.

So, hsc could have been insulting. I do not know enough to say if he was being glib or not. Only he can say if he was or not.

The fact that I am not insulted doesn't mean that I was not meant to insulted.

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:31 PM         

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quote:

---

Then Fayte had to open her big mouth.... !!!! hehe I am teasing in kind-hearted way. It did appear to me that you were looking for trouble, Fayte, when you first posted that... but maybe... just maybe... you were just trying to heroically support UnMoved in the face of what you saw was an injustice.

---

It was simply as you said in the last bit there....

quote:

---

you were just trying to heroically support UnMoved in the face of what you saw was an injustice.

---

There were no maybes involved. I did not like seeing Unmoved insulted.

You really thought I was looking for trouble...??????!!!??????? Oh my...what a bummer opinion of my sincere motives.

I hate trouble. I hate it so bad I have deleted dozens of my posts and even left LL for about a 1/2 a year. I almost did it awhile back twice. Believe me...trouble is not something I get a thrill out of. Even this right now is going off topic and disturbing and tiring and I feel as if I am on trial again...and I am going now rather than unintentionally fuel anymore fires with my big mouth.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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From:
Registered: Dec 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:31 PM         

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This is called "borrowing trouble".

God bless you all and may you find peace.

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:35 PM         

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Ok..I have to reply to this!

quote:

---

If someone said to you, "I disapprove of what you said" you might not find it as offensive as if someone said, "I don't CARE what you think, Fayte."
Others find it more offensive if you are disapproving.

---

Totally weird!
Someone telling me they disapprove is far less offensive then they do not care. I'd rather face disapproval than what I do or say is worthless.
"I do not care" sounds very condescending to me...and "I disapprove" is simply I do not agree...or condone....
not insulting like a don't care is.

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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From: South Africa
Registered: Jun 2007

posted October 30, 2007 10:50 PM         

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Ok...

I'm gonna leave it here.

The statement was/is ambiguous because it can be read in many ways. I see 2 ways of reading it... as far as what its true intention was, only hsc knows.

hsc may explain if he wishes, but he doesn't have to.

If the statement was sincere, thanks.

If it was an insult... LOL... then, thanks again.

Fayte.m

MM, thanks once again for your effort regarding this discussion.

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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat. fayte1954@hotmail.com
Registered: Mar 2005

posted October 30, 2007 10:54 PM         

---

Unmoved Your input has been very welcomed! Still love the article!

------------------
"Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over and start a rehab for the damned!"
~Judgement Must Be Balanced With Compassion~
~Do Not Seek Wealth From The Suffering, Or The Dire Needs Of Others~
~Assumption Is The Bane Of Understanding~
~ if you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got.~
Everything changes.
Fear not the changes.
"My body is physically disabled, but I am not my body nor am I its disabilities!"
"I would rather," Truth said; "to walk naked than wear the raiments of Falsehood!"
}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}><}}}(*> <*){{{><{}<}}(*> <3
~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~
~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~

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