posted October 16, 2007 12:01 AM              

I usually understand where you are coming from and the point you are trying to make.
At the moment I am confused but it may be just me.
I confess I am quite tired and in alot of pain, and having oral surgery tomorrow if there are no further complications, So at the moment I am not very clear headed. Been mostly bumping up interesting threads is all...and cutting and pasting from old posts long buried.

posted October 16, 2007 12:37 AM              

quote:

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p.s. Partly because of recent threads here in LL regarding the Bible, I came to a conclusion that I have to finally read it. So thank you Fayte and everyone who contributed to inspiring that too. -- Any suggestions for good concordences or helpful guides on understanding it?

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posted October 16, 2007 03:53 AM              

Since all are welcome here and since you asked the question Mannu, my reponse is that Jesus is both human and God. Jesus is God Incarnate - The Incarnation.

Just to clarify. Though it's a common misunderstanding and one that even some Catholics misunderstand, Jesus was the Virginal Conception. The Immaculate Conception refers to his mother Mary. Not Jesus. The Immaculate Conception is strictly a Roman Catholic belief. It's not doctrine it is dogma. It is one of only two dogmas that was ever declared ex cathedra ( from the chair ) or infallible in the history of the RC Church. Both of those were Marian dogmas.

posted October 16, 2007 01:50 PM            

Jesus who appears to be all peaceful and loving seems to be telling those people "you people are conceived of lust while I am not."

Well even I was conceived of Lust of my father and mother.

So much for the immaculate conception (as Mirandee's above post and Paul's quote from Galatian says) - Jesus was born from a Woman. Period.

Mirandee - Appreciate your comments as well. We each hold keys to the puzzle. i have nothing against any one shedding their light on the topic being discussed in a good spirit.

artlovesdawn
- I am so glad that you pointed out that similarity in the pictures. Thank you. I didn't notice that.

Fayte- will reply to your other question after im back from a meeting.

posted October 16, 2007 04:20 PM            

Fayte,
Where I wanted to go was - how do we recognize our own divinity(Godhood) within and make that small jump from humanity in to that realm.

That John gospel assumes Jesus to be already someone above all of us human beings and then coming down to us in flesh and insulting them when they tried to kill him. How could a loving person do that?

*edited later****begin
I mean I hear spiritual people commenting about ordinary people all the time, even today. Perhaps Jesus is being no different. But he is faced with great danger to life, surrounded by religious fanatics.
I mean whats wrong with snarky remarks, they are wake up calls isn't it?

Or it could mean both parties are accusing each other of having a illicit father.

Or it could mean Jesus is defending himself on his earthly paternity...

I'm tired and give up.

*edited later****end

Your thoughts are enlightening because you are making us understand the human side of Jesus. But he just wouldn't have had that access to esoteric knowledge. Which leads to the baptism of Jesus by John. Perhaps Jesus and John went to the same school.

The new testament does seem to be writings of several men, who tried to fit the Jesus story to the old testament.

Hmmm...... but its my opinion perhaps.

Some more knowledge dawned on me from my last post. I think we shared the wisdom of serpent on the gnostic bible. So skipping that:

- the color blue represents that of Sophia (goddess of wisdom). Hmmm...i find so much peace with that color.

- there is a serpent god depicted in Egypt mythology who is part of the Trinity. Will post a good picture sometime when I have the time.

- The hindu God Vishnu/Gabriel for the west is claimed to be seated on a Serpent

- Infact underneath this universe is the Serpent cosmic energy that resonates with a peaceful sound. Some people hear that sound even in the awake state

posted October 17, 2007 02:02 AM              

Also clarifying that when someone speaks of the Immaculate Conception they are speaking strictly of Roman Catholic dogma. Some people here at LL who live in different cultures, countries and have different religions don't understand that there are different teachings in Chrisitanity and that there is Roman Catholicism and many different factions of Protestantism. They are all Christian in that they follow Jesus as the Christ or messiah. But different in their teachings and beliefs. This was brought to my attention lately by someone here at LL who is Hindu. It is really those people I was thinking of when I clarified that term. They could be confused by that term thinking it was a belief held by all Christians. It is not. Only Roman Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. When we talk about religion or in this case a specific religion, Chrisitanity, we can confuse people by just throwing out terms like that.

Mannu you will understand that particular passage of John's Gospel better if you read all that came before it in chapter 7. Then read what happens or is said after that passage. It's never a good idea to read things out of context in Scripture without knowing what came before and what came after. That will only create confusion.

Those passages of Scripture that you cited here is the interchange that sealed Jesus' death on the cross.

It is worded differently according to which translation of Scripture you are reading. Beginning in John's Gospel, chapter 8:39 of my Bible, which is the Saint Joseph Edition of the New American Bible, ( and this edition of Scipture does word things in more direct English without the ye's and thees etc. making it easier reading ) it reads:

quote:

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39. They answered and said to him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's chidren, you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40. But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. 41. You are doing the works of your father!" [So] they said to him, "We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God." 42. Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me.43. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44. You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie,he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45. But because I speak the truth you do not believe me. Can any of you charge me with sin? If I am telling the truth why do you not believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God."

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What the pharisees were doing in this passage and what they continued to do in the rest of the passages in chapter 8 of John's Gospel was to twist and distort the words of Jesus for their own agenda. They were upset because the crowd that gathered to hear Jesus speak believed him. When they said " we are not illegitimate" that was a dig at Jesus because they felt he was. This passage is where Jesus confronted the Jewish Pharisees face to face and declared to them his divinity.

What came after that dialouge in the passage of John's Gospel that you quoted here is what is most important and it set in motion everything that lead up to the crucifixion of Jesus.

quote:

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John's Gospel Chapter 8:57 " So the Jews said to him, " You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?" 58. Jesus said to them, "Amen, Amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM." 59. So they picked up stones to throw at him but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.

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posted October 17, 2007 07:55 AM              

I would very muchly like to respond to both of your posts but will do so only with permission
from each of you.

You both raised interesting points on the subject.

I am also on some serious pain meds this morning so will wait to respond in depth...once my head clears and permission(s) are granted.

Thank you both.

posted October 17, 2007 12:23 PM            

As I said everyone sees differently , I really appreciate your comments. I am of the same opinion as you and that is to read the bible from entirety.

I enlisted before possible scenarious based on what transpired there between Jesus and the people. Perhaps I missed a scenario on what went on during the exchange. But thats the direction I wanted this discussion to go into. Hope it helps to understand where I was coming from.

=======================

Continuing further..... with regards to Kats Meow view of Goddess being seperated from God. Thats interesting. I have been thru that theory also.
It seems Goddess went on her own journey and this universe is created by her. Perhaps Jesus comes from the Father to unite people back, and hence he is from above. Interesting.

What if there are men who does not wish to go back to the Father and stay with Mother?

posted October 17, 2007 03:11 PM              

I disagree that Jesus was predestined to die. It did occur to Jesus over a period of time in his mission but he did not know that in the beginning. If you read all of the New Testament you will see how often things occurred to Jesus as he followed through on his mission. His course did become apparent to him through events and the attitude of the Jewish Pharisees. It was revealed to him as he went along. He did not come into the world to die on a cross. Humanity did that to him. We can't pin that rap on God with the cop out of predestination.

Humanity could have accepted the message. Think of it in terms of a lifeguard. Jesus came into the world to save mankind. Instead of accepting that, out of our fear we pulled Jesus down with us. Just as a drowning person often does to a lifeguard trying to save him.

Humanity did not accept the message and it still doesn't to this day. Jesus' message was one of love, unity, peace, tolerance, and forgiveness. God revealed what He truly is through Jesus. Now how often do we see that message being followed or heard on the planet today? The message is still being rejected. Jesus is still being rejected and we are still attempting to drag him down with us.

We still are doing what the Pharisees did. We are playing games of semantics and distorting and twisting the words and message of Jesus and even who Jesus was. It isn't just the Catholic Church though like God himself the Church is a good scapegoat for many people. It's all of humanity.

No one will ever know who and what Jesus was or get the message just from a scholarly approach. Jesus said it in that passage. Those who love God and know God ( in their heart and soul ) will know the words that are of God and the words that are not of God. Jesus also said, " my sheep know me just as I know them."

Jesus says in the Gospel of John. " When the Son of Man returns do you think there will be any faith on earth?"

The message in Scripture is what you look for. Not the differences in how it is said.

Hear the voice come through the music on the harp unstrung. Instead of getting hung up on semantics.

posted October 17, 2007 03:59 PM            

The bible is the most confusing book. And i guess people should know that its not the word of God but a collection of book written by men. It was never meant that God speak to us thru books. Books are abstract. Perhaps thru Prophets. Yes. Look what they did to words of Isaiah. People added stuff to his book as well over time.

I also believe that all of us have the light within us to know the truth. No need to cry for holy spirit. Or other things going on in the world in the name of God.

I also reject the notion of Jesus being the only son of God.

I reject all words in the new testament such as :

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

posted October 17, 2007 04:07 PM            

During an interview with Donny Deutsch on his CNBC program The Big Idea (8 October 2007), Coulter stated that the United States is a "Christian nation" and suggested that Jews needed to "perfect" themselves into Christians.[128][129] Deutsch, a practicing Jew, told Coulter he found the comments personally offensive and anti-semitic; Coulter replied that she could not understand his reaction.

“ DEUTSCH: You said -- your exact words were, "Jews need to be perfected." Those are the words out of your mouth.

COULTER: No, I'm saying that's what a Christian is.
DEUTSCH: But that's what you said -- don't you see how hateful, how anti-Semitic --
COULTER: No!
DEUTSCH: How do you not see? You're an educated woman. How do you not see that?
COULTER: That isn't hateful at all.
DEUTSCH: But that's even a scarier thought[130].

”

In an interview published in Adweek three days after the interview, Deutsch noted that when he challenged her comments, Coulter appeared "to back off" and "seemed a little upset", adding, "I think she got frightened that maybe she had crossed a line, that this was maybe a faux pas of great proportions. I mean, did it show ignorance? Anti-Semitism? It wasn't just one of those silly things."[131]

Dennis Prager, a prominent conservative talk show host, commented that although, as a practicing Jew, he obviously did not agree with Coulter's theology, her comments were not anti-semitic.[132] Pointing out that "Liberals yearn for a world without conservatives at least as much as most believing Christians want a world without non-Christians", Dennis Prager noted that: "There is nothing in what Ann Coulter said to a Jewish interviewer on CNBC that indicates she hates Jews or wishes them ill, or does damage to the Jewish people or the Jewish state. And if none of those criteria is present, how can someone be labeled anti-Semitic?"[133]

However, the Anti-Defamation League issued a statement saying it "strongly condemns Ann Coulter for her anti-Semitic comment", and that to "espouse the idea that Judaism needs to be replaced with Christianity and that each individual Jew is somehow deficient and needs to be 'perfected,' is rank Christian supersessionism and has been rejected by the Catholic Church and the vast majority of mainstream Christian denominations."[134] The American Jewish Committee similarly issued a statement asserting that "Ms. Coulter's assertion that Jews are somehow religiously imperfect smacks of the most odious anti-Jewish sentiment."[135] Ann Coulter was again the subject of much hostle attention because of the incident.[136]

posted October 20, 2007 11:27 AM            

I was spiralling as below on reading your post. Forgive me if I'm perceived to be differering:

God only has one mask for each role in which he presents himself to his creation. Lets say he wants to manifest as Guru, then his Guru or Master spirit is only one. But the color of the Mask is what makes sense to the subject.

It changes form/appearance in a way the subject finds it acceptable. For example, if I was thinking of a Master, I would think of a bright white light and suddenly the most kindest face with a noticeable beard appearing thru the light. It was my idea to see God in Masters form that way, you know what I mean. I am trying to make a reality out of an abstract thought and abstract begets abstract. Not sure if any one is following me there.
This is no different to me than an idol worship.

Jesus is unique so is buddha and so is Muhammed and so is Krishna. No one is really greater or lesser. It is we who subject them to such attributes. Each of God's mask came to us and each was different. No, not the same. Behind each of those masks is the supreme Brahman or the One Soul. Every one talks about her but no one knows her. "If you have seen me, you have seen God" said Jesus. Even I could say the same statement and people will stone me All right if Muhammed said that , people will accept it with salt. Because they are not ready to accept God as a human yet.

I am different and a unique mask presented to existence or cosmos or whatever you wanna call it. People may like me or may not like me.

It does not make any difference to me. Same goes the other way, if I think every one is really a mask of God present in existence and I may not like some people.
It does not mean they will cease to exist.
Behind that mask or persona is God who is laughing at us for our ignorance. Coulter is a stupid lady. She must accept all differences as that of God.

Oh - by the way if you are full of love and light - it does not mean you express your self honestly. What have you got to fear or defend? Jesus did just that. Even at the expense of his life.

There is only one Guru/Teacher in the universe. Only one Father God
And I was thinking a person who is of love and light need not fear people. So what if he called us children of fornication.
I am also very direct , and I do not fear any authority. Why must we put our masks what we present to the world.

posted October 20, 2007 11:38 AM            

Some one here - no name calling. Accused me of not caring for people if said "I want to be detatched."

Tell me how can one after realizing that they are God be a "Stone Buddha"?
A stone buddha is dead to the world.
We must be like fresh water spring, always moving on. Always refreshing.

Adults have identified themselves with their personality so much that even they are about to die, they are so attached to that personality.

Children on the other hand do not have a Mask in which they present to the world.

Hence all spiritual beings refer to children.

When an adult introduces to another adult. They will say "Jane is a real estate agent". "Joe is a plumber", etc...etc.
How many times at Lindaland people have put an avatar of themselves. I am catholic, I am protestant. I am a tarot reader. Can any one communicate without these avatars?
Let there be a website which does not allow any one to say "what work they do", "are they male or female or both" anything that has the effect of introducing a mask. Can such a web site exist?

Eavesdrop on small children communicating with each other. They don't have any mask. They are just as they are
Whatever masks exists is from the parents.

Heheh.... gotta go upstate New york to visit a friend.