posted May 07, 2009 09:07 PM         

Since I've been looking into Islam lately I had to look into the views on reincarnation (secretly hoping it wasnt part of the belief system lol). Reincarnation is something that never really sat well with me, though I made it. After much contemplation and reading and learning I still to this day, I thought it sounded like horrible torture and couldnt make it completely fit with my world or life view. Anyway, I wanted to share this article that goes into so much more and helps to make sense of what we call Karma too.

Enjoy.

Reincarnation or Life in the Hereafter?
By V.A. Mohamad Ashrof
Activist and Writer - India
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1153698300056&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout

To the proponents of the theory, Karma is an immutable law, according to which the present fortune or fate is considered to be the aftermath of one’s past deeds or Karma. The following paper is a rational, logical, and sociological examination of the theory of reincarnation. The concept of Karma is also evaluated Qur’anically.

The doctrine of Reincarnation and Karma are the very basis of the Brahmanical teachings with regard to the organizations and scheme of the world and of human life. For the better or for the worse, the human soul is postulated to be reborn into such conditions as one’s previous life entitles one.

Karma may be defined as the law of consequence with regard to one’s activities in the given life, which is supposed to be the driving force behind the cycle of reincarnations or rebirths. The law of Karma postulates that every individual has to pass through a series of lives, either on earth again or somewhere else, before he or she attains moksha or liberation.

According to the theory of Karma, a soul is born many times and dies many times. In each of its incarnations the person entails certain Karma, which stems from the good and evil that one performed in the previous life. Good deeds earn good Karma and allow one to be reborn into a higher caste than the previous one, consequent upon one’s Karma in the previous incarnation. As one sows, so one reaps, the only problem being that the reaping, according to Brahmanical belief, does not come until rebirth. The law of Karma is considered to conserve the moral consequences of all actions, and predetermines our present and future lives accordingly. The doctrine of reincarnation teaches that each person continues his or her lives one after another, and will do so endlessly until becoming absolved.

The doctrine claims that each person is embodied in a newly born body, lives a human life however long that body lives, and, when that body dies, reincarnates in another new body. The doctrine of Karma says that the physical, social, economic, and political conditions under which a person is embodied and lives out the given life are the conditions rendered appropriate as entitled by the person’s actions in the previous life. The two claims together yield a third: the evils that chance upon a person in a given lifetime are morally proper, being the appropriate consequences of what he or she did previously. In part, the present life is determined by the results of past deeds. We are, according to this doctrine of Karma, the effects of our own infinite past. Every child born into this world is born to live out its own past deeds. This means that everything we see is just and balanced, and the distresses we encounter are to be relished as “religious theater.” It perhaps explains why certain people are born untouchables.

The notion of Karma as a moral principle offering the inevitable consequences of human conditions provides the ideological undergirding for the existence of various Varnas (original social divisions). The idea of expiation was linked to the individual’s social fate in the societal organization and, thereby, to the caste order. All (ritual or ethical) merits and faults of the individual are recorded in a ledger of accounts; the balance irrefutably determines the fate of the soul at rebirth, and this is in exact proportion to the surplus of the one or the other side of the ledger.

The result of the belief in this theory is, perhaps, best outlined by Shri Aurobindo:

At any rate, at least nine-tenths of our freedom of will is a palpable fiction. That will is created and determined not by its own self-existent action at a given moment, but our past, our heredity, our training, the whole tremendous complex thing called Karma, which is, behind us, the whole past actions of Nature on us and the world converging in the individual, determining what he is, determining what his will shall be at a given moment and determining, as far as analyses can see, even its action at that moment1.

Karma transforms the world into a strictly rational and ethically determined cosmos representing the most inconsistent theodicy ever produced in history. It also requires the strict fulfillment of caste obligation. The absence of ethical universalism leads to striving for individual salvation based on attempts to escape the cycle of rebirths. A pious low-caste individual believes that he, too, can win the world; that he can become a Kshatriya (member of the royal or warrior Hindu caste) or a Brahmin (high caste of priests) after rebirths in the same pattern. According to the doctrine, the order and rank of the castes are also eternal, as are the courses of the cosmic bodies or the difference between the animal and human species. To overthrow them would be sacrilegious. Rebirth can drag man down to the life of a “worm in the intestine of a dog,” but, according to his conduct, it might raise him and place him in the womb of a queen or a Brahmin’s daughter. Absolute prerequisites, however, are strict fulfillment of caste obligations in the given life. Since the lower castes, furthermore, had the most to win through strict ritual observances of the dictates of the upper caste, they were least tempted or dared any innovation or revolt. It is very clear that so long as the Karma doctrine remains unshaken, revolutionary ideas would be inconceivable.

Chandogya Upanishad (5:10:7) says:

Those who are of pleasant conduct here the prospect is, indeed, that they will enter a pleasant womb, either the womb of a Brahmin, or the womb of a Kshatriya, or the womb of a Vaishya (the caste of ordinaries). But those who are of perfidious conduct here the prospect is, indeed, that they will enter a contemptible womb, either the womb of a dog, or the womb of a swine or the womb of an outcast (Chandala), await for development.2

This being the first reference to the theory, it was by the end of the Vedic period (500 BC), that the Brahminical system, with its hierarchical division of society, was supported ideologically both by reference in the ancient texts and by the doctrines of Karma and rebirth.

The concept of Karma has its roots in the philosophy of the Gita as well, which states that man attains spiritual perfection by worshiping God through performance of one’s own duties as postulated by the relevant scriptures (The Bhagavat Gita 18:46). Consequently the adherents strongly believe that there is no salvation except through compliance with the rules of the caste system as interpreted by the Brahmins, who alone had the authority to do that.

The comments made by M. N. Roy on the social consequences of such a belief are pertinent to be quoted here:

The caste system places different groups of people in different social status. If that system is providentially ordained, those belonging to lower status must be reconciled forever to their positions. Social inequality is, thus, perpetuated on the authority of divine will. The slave must be a slave forever! The ruling class enjoys its power and privileges as gifts of God, which only the sinful can ever dare to take away from it.3“.

“The doctrine of Karma,” says John Gunter, “has considerable political consequences. Obviously, it embodies an extreme form of fatalism, which impedes ambition.4” Karma theory is indeed, at the root of keeping the down-trodden under perpetual bondage. The theory overlooks the fact that poverty actually is the fault of society —a society in which the greedy and the cunning exploit and rise to the top. The poor man has to accept starvation and squalor because he is underfed and has no energy to break away and create a revolution. He has to accept what life gives him, and so he says, “It is my Karma to be like this.” The rich man also resolves: “It is my Karma. I must have done good deeds in a previous life and now I am reaping the reward of my past actions.” Thus, Karma is to accept things as they are. It does not admit of revolt against tyranny; it prevents one from shaping one’s own destiny. Being fatalists, the poor in India believe that their sufferings are a punishment for the sins committed in the previous life. Submission without any demur is the only good. Indoctrination was so complete that rarely did there arise persons who entertained the idea of revolt.

Almost all the religious Brahmanical Gurus and Pujaris believed in the sanctity of "untouchability," an offshoot of the caste system. Even as recently as in 1969, Shri Shankaracharya of Jagannathpuri justified untouchability as a matter of religion, at the Vishwa Hindu sammelan held in Kashi, Banaras.5

What the law of Karma originally meant was: You reap what you sow. Actually the chain of cause and effect has little to do with the chain of incarnations, which is wholly imaginary. But the perverted theory of Karma, even its psychological influence, seems to obscure conveniently the principle of social justice here and now. Discipline was instilled into Hindu minds through elementary lessons in the law of Karma. If things went wrong, one was paying for the wrongs done in the past life. If one prospered, one was reaping the fruits of good deeds performed previously. The law of Karma gave one the feeling that yesterday is linked with today, even as today with tomorrow, in a never ending cycle. To the believers in reincarnation, the paths of life are penal, not remedial, every human soul animating in succession eighty-four lakhs bodies —the bodies of other human beings, beasts, birds, fish, plants, or the like. This weary but endless ordeal of the cycle of births fills the mind of a believer with the greatest horror.

The doctrine of Karma has some anti-social implications. It does not take into account the influence of the social forces regarding one’s present predicament. Consequently, this outlook begets a sort of indifference to the suffering of other people because the suffering of each one, whether of oneself or of others, is interpreted in terms of the actions in the past life. This outlook makes an individual disregardful or helpless regarding his own situation and unhelpful regarding the situations of other people. When no visible way is present to better their life, the people tend to become fatalistic, stick to their existing traditional norms, and lose the will to learn anything new, thus putting to no avail, if not disuse, the great human virtue of creativity.

The process of procreation demands gender difference. One may ascribe one’s present difference from another human being to some cause of one’s previous life, but where were the actions which caused the difference of sex in the first pair, whence these multitudes have sprung? Difference in sonhood and fatherhood is another sequence which must have existed even at the beginning of life. How are we to explain these differences when there was no previous life and consequently no previous action?

Our bad habits, according to the theory of Karma, have come to us as the fruit of some past actions. They cannot be undone, and all our efforts to undo them will be in vain. If I committed some wrongs in a previous life, I must, therefore, suffer their consequences in the present life, and all my efforts to be free from them are simply to belie that theory. If A receives some injury from B, it is, as the concept of Karma says, to make up for some injury received by B, from A in his previous existence. Thus, offense becomes a justification in the eyes of the culprit! One need not be thankful to one’s benefactors, because one receives from them what one had given them in charity in the past life. When every act of man—of wickedness and corruption, of kindness and love, and so on—is forced to be regarded as inevitably consequential and inalienable, societal and social laws and their enforcement are sure to become the whims of those who wield the authority. The theory is thus, indeed, most unfavorable to our moral growth.

The position of the untouchables, the Dalits and the Bahujans, were based on a concocted philosophy and a diabolical theology. The doctrine of Karma was cunningly formulated to canonize inequality of man from birth to death and even afterwards. The mindset of the poor, the ignorant, and the downtrodden was entrapped without an escape route. The concept of human rights was non-existent and its practice could never be dreamt of in such a socio-religious order. The entire contraption was perfected with such philosophical verbiage that, while confounding the mind of the common man, it never lets him get out of it. The human psyche became a victim of contradictions, and caste supremacy was made sacrosanct beyond the powers of civil society and state-made laws.

In short, the doctrine of Karma was deliberately employed as a subtle but powerful instrument for justifying and perpetuating inequality and exploitation. It has inflicted the single biggest blow on the Indian social fabric. In one stroke, the people have been told that however much they try to better their lot in this birth, they cannot help it because of the accumulated sins of the past. So it is better to resign to the fate and suffer in expiation, for it is the way out! No wonder the slaves enjoy their slavery with this belief.

A careful examination proves that the social implications of the doctrine of rebirth of the soul is an absurd phenomenon. A human being, according to the concept of Karma, might have been an animal in a previous form. Naturally, an animal that was a human being might have committed some evil deeds. This creates a vicious circle. The advocates of this belief cannot settle any form for the first creature, for every generation implies a preceding generation so that the succeeding generation may be considered as the consequence of the former. This, in simple words, is quite absurd.

Karma: A Qur’anic Appraisal

According to Islam the soul remains with the human body throughout the life and departs at death. When separated from the human body, the soul enters the realm of Barzakh, which is the period between one’s death and the Final Judgment. The Qur’an teaches that God is responsible to see that every being gets its due right and that injustice will not go unpunished.

Indeed, belief in the life hereafter is very important in the doctrinal foundation of Islam. In the Qur’an it has been mentioned at numerous places conjoined with the belief in God (see for example 9:44–45, 4:59, 9:99, 2:228). The evil consequences of the disbelief in the life hereafter are far-reaching in so far as they deprive human beings of genuine success in this life. The Qur’an puts forth detailed arguments and evidence in favor of life hereafter (see 85:36–40, 50:9–15, 45:24–26). Cloning provides an irrefutable proof of the claim of resurrection. The possibility of developing the same entity from a single surviving preserved cell or part has been proved by cloning experiments. The process of creation through a single cell is common knowledge for us, as we are all born in this way. Similar would be the creation of human beings on the Day of Resurrection, the Qur’an says (56:62).

The earthly life becomes meaningless if it is not followed by another life where reward or punishment is given to individuals on the basis of the deeds performed by them in their terrestrial life. God being absolutely Just, His justice makes it imperative that those who spent their lives obeying His guidance must not be treated like those who have gone astray. Concerning the soul after death, the Qur’an and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad mention nothing except that the soul remains after death either living in ease and comfort or in torment (3:169–170).

In awe-inspiring language, the Qur’an sketches over and again the events of the Last Day. At a point in time this world will be brought to an end in a terrifying cosmic cataclysm, frightful beyond imagination, and all people, past and present, will then stand before God—each one as totally alone and helpless as he or she came into the world—to render their accounts (80:33–42, 84:1–19). Those who denied God and rejected His guidance will long for another chance to return to the world to live their lives in obeisance in the light of their present knowledge of Reality, but they will be too late (Qur’an 43:74–76, 46:34).

The Qur’an asserts that the present life is but a minute part of the totality of existence. For God is able to transform His creations from one state of being to another (see Qur’an 41:39, 36:77–79). The belief in the life hereafter is grounded in the Qur’anic teaching that the world is a moral order, wherein every action of man, however insignificant, is accountable and must meet its reward or punishment (50:16–18, 36:12, 17:13–14, 13:9–11, 82:9–12). The good and evil fruits of human deeds become manifest in accordance with the limitations of man’s earthly life, even in this world (92:4–10). However, it is on the Day of Judgment in the life hereafter that every human action, however insignificant it might appear to us, will meet its full and complete recompense (99:1–8). On that Day, the virtuous will be more than fully rewarded for their righteous life (2:212).

Unlike the concept of Karma theory, the Islamic belief in the life after death does not dissuade man from striving for a polity based on socio-economic justice. On the other hand, it persuades a Muslim to harness all intellectual and physical endeavors in the cause of advancement of justice (4:58, 4:135, 5:8, 38:26).

A Qur’anic verse (28:4) describes Pharaoh’s lust for power and superiority and his claim to divinity which led him to treat others as slaves. The policy of discrimination had divided them into mutually conflicting groups. Like Brahminism, Pharaoh also had humiliated the majority of his people by such hierarchic division of power. The Qur’an mentions him as mufsid (one who corrupts): [Assuredly, We have created man with the best traits (having the goodliest nature)](95:4). This verse establishes the essential goodness of human nature in contradistinction to the ideational culture that man is born neither with any stigma of sin nor with the fettering chains of reincarnation; and it proves human competence for pursuing good successfully and fighting evil on individual, collective, and social levels.

posted May 08, 2009 07:24 PM         

I can see where people who "remember" past lives, especially while under hypnosis are not really remembering anything of the sort. Though nothing will convince them otherwise.

I agree; Love conquers all.
In the meantime though...maybe we are being duped more than we know. And it keeps us stuck and like broken records...getting tripped up left and right, though not even realizing it most of the time. Good practice I guess, for the sincere heart.

posted May 08, 2009 07:28 PM         

quote:

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In short, the doctrine of Karma was deliberately employed as a subtle but powerful instrument for justifying and perpetuating inequality and exploitation. It has inflicted the single biggest blow on the Indian social fabric. In one stroke, the people have been told that however much they try to better their lot in this birth, they cannot help it because of the accumulated sins of the past. So it is better to resign to the fate and suffer in expiation, for it is the way out! No wonder the slaves enjoy their slavery with this belief.

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quote:

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Karma transforms the world into a strictly rational and ethically determined cosmos representing the most inconsistent theodicy ever produced in history. It also requires the strict fulfillment of caste obligation. The absence of ethical universalism leads to striving for individual salvation based on attempts to escape the cycle of rebirths. A pious low-caste individual believes that he, too, can win the world; that he can become a Kshatriya (member of the royal or warrior Hindu caste) or a Brahmin (high caste of priests) after rebirths in the same pattern. According to the doctrine, the order and rank of the castes are also eternal, as are the courses of the cosmic bodies or the difference between the animal and human species. To overthrow them would be sacrilegious. Rebirth can drag man down to the life of a “worm in the intestine of a dog,” but, according to his conduct, it might raise him and place him in the womb of a queen or a Brahmin’s daughter. Absolute prerequisites, however, are strict fulfillment of caste obligations in the given life. Since the lower castes, furthermore, had the most to win through strict ritual observances of the dictates of the upper caste, they were least tempted or dared any innovation or revolt. It is very clear that so long as the Karma doctrine remains unshaken, revolutionary ideas would be inconceivable.

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posted May 08, 2009 09:35 PM         

He said that people experience difficulties and disabilities in life not because of karma...but to enable them to learn such valuable lessons of love, empathy, humility, etc....

The ones who project the most beauty of their being....in my experience....are often those who have suffered much in life.

I don't believe in karma, but I believe life gives to us the situations most needed in order to learn. The most painful part of the experience is when we feel trapped and lost rather than viewing what we are experiencing from another angle....the blessing disguised as a nightmare; the wisdom that is gained from the experience as the silver lining from the cloud.

I don't know where all this waffle I'm typing is coming from exactly, by the way.

posted May 08, 2009 10:04 PM         

Have you met people who have suffered much and it seems to have destroyed them? Some give up hope and turn to a life of crime or addiction etc. I've met a lot of those. Most of them have grown up in a life full of hardship and abuse, they suffered greatly at an early age. So I cant say the one's I know who have suffered greatly are the ones who project the most beauty. Not in every single case of course. Actually, a few people I know that project much beauty and help others to discover it within themselves, have had very nice lives and grown up in loving families....So who knows where that really comes from?

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I don't believe in karma, but I believe life gives to us the situations most needed in order to learn.

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Me too.

Feeling like you are trapped here might not actually be such a negative thing for a person. it helps to drive you to seek what is real, what is Love and Truth. Pulls you out of yourself and towards what everyone is yearning for. Without it, you wouldnt get very far. I'd rather feel that "pain" than be someone who doesnt think much about what the purpose of life is because they are so caught up in their worldly pursuits and desires. Being conscious of the imprisonment might be half the battle.

Yeah, from all I've heard and read it seems reincarnation is definitely a possibility too. Still, it's just that. And there is a possibility that is not quite how we've always heard it is and it goes to show how long and how deep a lot of these deceptions go and have been going on. Since the beginning of time?

I'm rambling too. Thanks for listening and sharing!

posted May 09, 2009 02:29 PM         

I have various, complex, theories on reincarnation,
and what "past-life recall" experiences may signify.

None of the interpretations listed in the article,
on either karma or reincarnation, reflect my own,
and, yet, I still suspect they exist in some form.

I think the idea of eternal torment,
for whatever "justification" is barbaric,
and more horrific than any near-eternal
string of incarnations could be.

I find it very hard to believe that
this life will end in a Final Judgement
a la "you just wait until your father gets home",
although its easy to see how such a dogma might develop.

Big Daddy Saturn with his big stick
gonna come and give everyone
their eternal just desserts.
No, I dont buy it.
But, I'm not that Saturnian.

I think the notions
of reward and punishment
are inventions of people who are
sick with the lust for revenge,
just as Nietzsche claimed.

Science and reason indicate that men are not free,
but ideas of reward and punishment predominate,
simply because people, deep down, want revenge.
Those who have any reason to feel cheated (all of us!)
may be seduced by the hope of being recompensed,
and of seeing others stripped of health and honors.

I'm sorry, but,
I keep coming back to Christ,
and the heart of Christianity...

Christ came to heal the sick;
meaning the spiritually sick.

Christ did not come to judge,
but, to deliver from judgement.

The Law, which men had used to know righteousness
had been corrupted into a means of comparing men --
but, as the saying goes, "all comparisons are odious".
By attention to the law, men were pitted against one another,
each having some reason to scorn or envy his neighbor.
But the heart of the law is, and has always been, love.
Without love, the rest is cold, authoritarian, desolate.

This is what Christ came to do.
To place love and grace at the forefront.

According to this way of seeing...

The most likely trick of the devil
would be to promise heaven to some people
provided they see no problem in sending
a whole lot of other people to hell.

The only ones who would really get in,
would be the ones who refused the bribe,
and chose to pray for the salvation
of the souls condemned to hell.

Like Kwan Yin, when she refused to enter Nirvana
until all sentient beings are liberated with her.

This is very much in keeping with the popular notion
of the devil as a trickster, who promises one thing,
but refuses to give it when the bargain is adhered to,
and only gives when the bargain has been broken.

Ever since the Reformation,
there has been a renewed emphasis
on lauding the virtue of hard work.
This is such a part of our heritage
we often do not even notice it, but,
it is known as the Protestant work ethic,
and many credit it with the abundance of undue
guilt and obligation which people in the west experience.

Governments in the west have been exploiting this
deeply rooted appreciation for hard work and duty
as THE model virtue, and it is no wonder why they approve.
They want to keep us busy, making money for them,
and not leave us any time to think, or stray from
whatever the culture has told us is our responsibility.

The ideal of the man in the fields,
living off the sweat of his brow,
is just the sort of peasant that
the authorities love to rule over.

Nevermind advancements that could make life easier
and give us all leisure time to think and study.
These are mere "temptations" to the man who has learned,
as he's been taught, to value work for work's sake.

Its at the point now where people think that,
if a job is more difficult, it is more valuable,
and, if you dont bust your butt, you havent earned a crust of bread.

Its a ruse to keep us all fighting amongst ourselves,
while, really, there is plenty to accomodate our needs,
and we dont have to be working nearly so hard as we do.
The amount of labour that is honestly necessary
is so miniscule that men would be fighting over it,
just to have something predictable to do that day.

Just because you are working hard,
doesnt mean you are earning points upstairs.
More likely, its your own concepts of duty
which blind you to the real injustice,
which is, at this level, a social imbalance;
rooted in the social order, not in divine law.

posted May 09, 2009 06:02 PM         

Is it possible that the cruel, judgmental God of the Old Testament and Q'uran...is no more but a reflection of...us?

Could it be...that to destroy evil...we have to simply stop thinking of things in terms such as "good" and evil"?

posted May 09, 2009 06:31 PM         

I hear you. I have not gone that far and taken everything I'm learning as truth. Like every religion, Islam has extremists! And like every religion it has it's Mystics or mystical side, correct?

Some of what I've heard doesnt sit well with me either. You just understand where it's coming from and dig up your own jewels within it's teachings and be careful of who - what man you are listening to (his preachings). No religion or faith is without it's "faults". That's where your own heart and discernment comes in handy. Some people will read a holy book and get one message, another an entirely different one.

Right away one aspect I did not like was the belief that only certain people will go to Paradise and others to Hell because of this or that. Well, damn, I thought....There are two people especially dear to me that would never make it into Paradise under these conditions and I'm sorry, but if that's the case I don't want to go either (if i'd even be chosen anyway LOL!). How can one enjoy a Paradise that does not include everyone? How can someone be happy knowing others - whether they are dear to you or not - are suffering in pain somewhere else? That's no Paradise at all! Send me to Hell with my loved ones instead then!

I dont know where to begin with this one, because I've only just begun this journey myself. I'll just say that my beliefs are not what you are automatically thinking they are just because I may resonate to Islam or it's Mystical Path. I believe we are all chosen ones. Time is a tricky thing. Along with everything else, if you catch my drift.

I'm still not so sure about reincarnation right now. And that doesnt mean I believe in Heaven and Hell or everything Islamic extremists preach! Just like I'm sure you would have issues with many a bible thumping "Christian"!

There is beauty in every religion or faith and underneath them all is one message.

I've already said and pondered what both of you have just said here to myself. Thank you for sharing!

posted May 09, 2009 06:51 PM         

"is no more but a reflection of ....us?"

LTT, is there evil here or in the world and in man? ...I guess that has become a pretty debatable subject in this day and age. Somehow! How can it be debated? The war within, the war without - it's there!

I think there actually is evil. But it is there as a tool. If there is "evil" or a "devil", God made it or him too! All is God, nothing is more powerful. Could it be there is a reason for evil? Could the holy wars that every holy text speak of and that are meant to be read on many levels actually exist for a good reason? Just like everything else. Are they meant to be brushed aside and not faced? Will that "law of attraction" save us all? In a certain way, yes, but it's a slippery slope.

quote:

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Could it be that the way to end harm and restore our world to harmony....is simply to see the beauty in all forms of life as well as each other....and to feel the interconnectedness of all inside?

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Yes, LTT! And from what I am learning - from learned men, not the blind fanatics - is that is it. The Quran teaches this. Just because some men misinterpret it and teach differently, doesnt mean they have got it's message right!

posted May 09, 2009 07:28 PM         

karma is a choice. it is not set in stone and we are not necessarily obligated to satisfy the karma we bring into this life.

and though he uses karma AND reincarnation as MODELS he does a really good job of describing how they are basically misrepresentations of reality...

and its a good read. a bit long, but if you start with the chapter on karma and also the "earth school" section you'll know if you want to read the rest.

posted May 10, 2009 03:24 AM         

Not everything I find worth saying is intended to apply to you, and even what is said with you foremost in mind is not said because I assume this is how you are, but, because I suspect this may possibly be how you are. (Water signs are notoriously subtle in our thinking, don't you know.) Most of it, though, concerns my thoughts on the article you posted, which made its own suggestions. They may not be taken in a good way, no matter how you read them. Keep reading the Koran, and you'll find plenty to overlook, just as you have in the Bible and the Vedas (and for good reason, too). I have only read parts, but I want to sit down with it more thoroughly soon. First, though, I want to read the Guru Granth Sahib and finish Rumi's Masnavi. I've long considered everything you said, too, but it is nice to hear it from you, and know that some of my worries are unfounded. I know there is a mystical heart of Islam, but, so far, for me, it is exemplified very nicely in Sufism.

quote:

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Right away one aspect I did not like was the belief that only certain people will go to Paradise and others to Hell because of this or that. Well, damn, I thought....There are two people especially dear to me that would never make it into Paradise under these conditions and I'm sorry, but if that's the case I don't want to go either (if i'd even be chosen anyway LOL!). How can one enjoy a Paradise that does not include everyone? How can someone be happy knowing others - whether they are dear to you or not - are suffering in pain somewhere else? That's no Paradise at all! Send me to Hell with my loved ones instead then!

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Well said.

This belongs in your first post.
Would have saved me some breath.

Instead, you give the impression that
this sort of "justice" may be preferable to you.

quote:

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I dont know where to begin with this one, because I've only just begun this journey myself. I'll just say that my beliefs are not what you are automatically thinking they are just because I may resonate to Islam or it's Mystical Path. I believe we are all chosen ones. Time is a tricky thing. Along with everything else, if you catch my drift.

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Don't assume that I am automatically assuming,
just because I address certain possibilities.

And your initial post does invite
certain assumptions, which it is nice
to see you clarifying, if only now.

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I believe we are all chosen ones.

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Nice.

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I'm still not so sure about reincarnation right now. And that doesnt mean I believe in Heaven and Hell or everything Islamic extremists preach! Just like I'm sure you would have issues with many a bible thumping "Christian"!

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OF COURSE.

No one even suspected the possibility of otherwise.

I'm just addressing some concerns
before they become too big to address.
Maybe its unnecessary, but, hey,
better safe than sorry for you.

posted May 10, 2009 01:33 PM         

As for the Bible and Vedas, I have not found much to overlook because I have never read them. For a long time I focused on the Gita and the Upanishads. From what I understand the Vedas have been tampered with and there is much missing now. I try to keep an open mind and not quickly overlook the things I read or what I would like to overlook, and instead pay more attention to and meditate on those points because I don't know everything yet. If there's a knee-jerk reaction to overlook something, I am even more curious about looking more deeply into it and thinking about it.

Something I found attractive about the Qur'an is supposedly it has not been tampered with, edited or changed by man since it was delivered to Muhammed. People back then memorized the suras when they were revealed to him through Archangel Gabriel. And that it is a monotheistic faith that seems to have tolerance for other faiths and religions (though society today has taught us to think otherwise).

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I know there is a mystical heart of Islam, but, so far, for me, it is exemplified very nicely in Sufism.

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Yes, that's what I was talking about.

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This belongs in your first post.
Would have saved me some breath.

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If I brought everything I think up, or address all the points that I know will lead people to believe they then know where I coming from or what I think, first, I'd be here for days.

No, that sort of "justice" would not be preferable to me. But I dare to think God knows better than me. I'm not implying anything besides that now. Could it be that everyone makes it to this "Paradise" eventually? That what is right for them is not MY choice, but theirs and God's? That we are each making our own beautiful journey home and some have a lot of work to do before they get there? That if we desire to know God and God only - and although, YES, we can and DO come to know Him through others - that it's ultimately a journey between each of us and Him. That every one else is on their own journey too and everyone is moving towards the same place? At whatever pace of speed is up to He and you. I have a problem with this: "Oh don't worry. Just open your eyes, silly! Can't you see it? Youre already "there"!." No, I'm not actually. I still have work to do. Maybe others believe they do not. And I think that BS can be dangerous for people and keep them stuck. This: "He's everywhere, in everyone, all around you. It's all Love." People are getting drunk off that cheap wine. I understand that, I know, I see it most of the time. Yes, all is God. But I also understand I am not there yet. I still have a ways to go and much to learn. That the murderers and rapists and a lot of other people, some with good intentions, arent "there" yet either. I think most people get caught in a trap and get lazy and are confused and mistaken. All of the NewAgey mumbo-jumbo does not help. It was helpful in the way that it eventually sharpened my vision and furthered my resolve? And don't think it's all bad, but there is danger of getting stuck in some of these teachings (like with any teaching!) and convincing yourself you have all the answers and sitting back relaxing. I know I do not. I hope God gives me the strength to keep up my practice and learn and grow until the day I day I die and beyond. I ask Him to humble and guide me everyday. I think this whole: "We are Gods!" thing has gone a little to far these days or is taken way out of context. Though God lives through everyone, I have never met Him in person - fully, wholly. And I have met some holy people.

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Don't assume that I am automatically assuming,
just because I address certain possibilities.

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Well, I only assume that because you told me you assume things about me! lol

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And your initial post does invite
certain assumptions, which it is nice
to see you clarifying, if only now.

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Yes, I know. I think that's a frustrating thing for all of us here. We all do it and we all have it done to us all the time.

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I'm just addressing some concerns
before they become too big to address.
Maybe its unnecessary, but, hey,
better safe than sorry for you.

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Well, thank you. It's very nice of you to be concerned and looking out for me. We are here to help one another. I know it comes from a good place and I appreciate your effort, thoughts and time.