posted April 05, 2011 11:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ami Anne:
To me and for me, the Bible consists of what is between it's covers .
I cannot add more in this discussion due to my thinking on that point.

---

Ami. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE on that link. NOT THE COMMENTARY. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? Jeez.

You can't comment on direct verses from The Bible, because of your beliefs? You make no sense, at all.

posted April 05, 2011 11:35 AM            

I take all and any of my reasoning and study from what is WITHIN the pages of the Bible.

I accept no extra Biblical teachings.

This discussion involves extra Biblical teachings such as the book of Enoch,for one.

I do not believe those are part of the Bible so I have no place in such a discussion.
I don't think that is so hard to understand
If it is,I am sorry.I can't explain it any better.

posted April 05, 2011 11:40 AM            

I'm having a lot of luck today on Google with theologians who have written a lot on this EXACT subject... who are talking about these issues.

posted April 05, 2011 11:43 AM            

One of the most difficult episodes for us to handle as people who live on this side of the New Testament are the Old Testament records of what is called the herem. This is where God calls Israel to embark in what we could call a holy war against the Canaanites. He tells them to go in there and wipe out everyone—men, women, and children. They were forbidden to take prisoners and were to utterly destroy and put the ban, or curse, upon this land before they occupied it for themselves.

When we look at that, we shrink in horror at the degree of violence that is not only tolerated but seemingly commanded by God in that circumstance. Critical scholars in the twentieth century have pointed to that kind of story in the Old Testament as a clear example that this couldn’t be the revealed Word of God. They say that this is the case where some bloodthirsty, ancient, seminomadic Hebrews tried to appeal to their deity to sanction their violent acts and that we have to reject that as not being supernaturally inspired interpretations of history.

I take a different view of it. I am satisfied that the Old Testament is the inspired Word of God and that God did in fact command the Jewish nation to institute the herem against the Canaanites. God does tell us in the Old Testament why he instituted that policy against the Canaanite people. It’s not as though God commanded a group of bloodthirsty marauders to come in and kill innocent people. Rather, the background was that the Canaanites were deeply entrenched in unrestrained forms of paganism that involved even such things as child sacrifice. It was a time of profound inhumanity within that nation. God said to Israel, “I am using you here in this war as an instrument of my judgment upon this nation, and I’m bringing my violence upon this unbelievably wicked people, the Canaanites.” And he said, “I’m going to have them destroyed” (Deut. 13:12-17). In effect, he said to the Jewish people, “I want you to understand something: I’m giving to the Canaanites their just deserts, but I’m not giving them into your hands because you’re a whole lot better. I could put the same kind of judgment on your heads for your sinfulness and be perfectly justified to do it.” That’s basically the sense of what God communicated to the Jews.

posted April 05, 2011 12:39 PM            

As I read the TOPIC : RELIGION,
I was understand the distinct impression
that LEXX had the intention of discussing.....

Religion.

Not quite sure how/why the discussion
ended up focusing on the "Bible" per say....

Probably as the old adage goes....
"The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

All religions are based upon a "belief" system that
act as a curriculum for people to follow....
without ever seeking first to Know Thyself.

Having an innate understanding of OneSelf
and knowing that One is "Good"....
there is no need to pursue antiquated notions
of designed and constructed fables
that distance Living Beings from their Life Force...
which is conveniently placed inside One's Self.

Religion is nothing more than a written
history/mythology class that requires it's students to
accept "beliefs" as truths, in order to "pass the test" of being mortal in a 3rd dimensional Whirled.

It has been the most effective way of separating
The People of Earth since recorded history...
and will continue to do so
as long as we Believe
"we are Right". ( or Righteous in some religions)

No one knows what happens after here....

No One.

So much to talk about....
So little Time.

------------------
When all is said and done,
more is said then done!

posted April 05, 2011 01:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chahldean:
Halo All

As I read the TOPIC : RELIGION,
I was understand the distinct impression
that LEXX had the intention of discussing.....

Religion.

Not quite sure how/why the discussion
ended up focusing on the "Bible" per say....

Probably as the old adage goes....
"The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

All religions are based upon a "belief" system that
act as a curriculum for people to follow....
without ever seeking first to Know Thyself.

Having an innate understanding of OneSelf
and knowing that One is "Good"....
there is no need to pursue antiquated notions
of designed and constructed fables
that distance Living Beings from their Life Force...
which is conveniently placed inside One's Self.

Religion is nothing more than a written
history/mythology class that requires it's students to
accept "beliefs" as truths, in order to "pass the test" of being mortal in a 3rd dimensional Whirled.

It has been the most effective way of separating
The People of Earth since recorded history...
and will continue to do so
as long as we Believe
"we are Right". ( or Righteous in some religions)

No one knows what happens after here....

No One.

So much to talk about....
So little Time.

---

Chaldean, this thread was started after LEXX and I got of on a tangent on another thread... the tangent WAS ABOUT THE VIOLENCE IN THE BIBLE.

I am not just a squeaky wheel.

posted April 05, 2011 01:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chahldean:
Halo All

As I read the TOPIC : RELIGION,
I was understand the distinct impression
that LEXX had the intention of discussing.....

Religion.

Not quite sure how/why the discussion
ended up focusing on the "Bible" per say....

Probably as the old adage goes....
"The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

All religions are based upon a "belief" system that
act as a curriculum for people to follow....
without ever seeking first to Know Thyself.

Having an innate understanding of OneSelf
and knowing that One is "Good"....
there is no need to pursue antiquated notions
of designed and constructed fables
that distance Living Beings from their Life Force...
which is conveniently placed inside One's Self.

Religion is nothing more than a written
history/mythology class that requires it's students to
accept "beliefs" as truths, in order to "pass the test" of being mortal in a 3rd dimensional Whirled.

It has been the most effective way of separating
The People of Earth since recorded history...
and will continue to do so
as long as we Believe
"we are Right". ( or Righteous in some religions)

No one knows what happens after here....

No One.

So much to talk about....
So little Time.

---

posted April 05, 2011 01:11 PM            

your insights, as always , are a gift.

quote:

---

Having an innate understanding of OneSelf
and knowing that One is "Good"....
there is no need to pursue antiquated notions
of designed and constructed fables
that distance Living Beings from their Life Force...
which is conveniently placed inside One's Self

---

posted April 05, 2011 01:24 PM            

Obviously can't have a serious discussion in a Hippielovestock III.

posted April 05, 2011 01:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Gosh, you guys sound like a bunch of hippies.

Obviously can't have a serious discussion in a Hippielovestock III.

See ya.

---

edit to add:
Rape In The Bible

Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.

So grab your Bibles and follow along as I show you all the nasty rapes that your priests and preachers don't want to tell you about. Note that in many places in the Bible there are references to "taking a wife". Don't be fooled into thinking that these were voluntary marriages. This first quote clearly shows that murder and force were used to "take" these wives.

1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick ******** killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

posted April 05, 2011 01:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LEXX:
I have been reading your posts today.
I was happy to see you looking into scholarly angles on things.
I am however saddened that you see some of us in a negative light.
I am not at my best today so have not had time to reply in full to all posts.
You are being serious and I appreciate that.
I am serious too.
Sigh
On that note this old Hippie says

---

posted April 05, 2011 02:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
I'm just not happy today, LEXX. It's not your guys' fault. I just can't connect with the positive vibes, right now.

---

posted April 05, 2011 02:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Gosh, you guys sound like a bunch of hippies.

Obviously can't have a serious discussion in a Hippielovestock III.

See ya.

---

I am an old flowerchild.

But ditto what lexx said and I hope you can find peace and return to the discussion soon.

posted April 05, 2011 02:17 PM            

Glad and honored am I
to call You
Friends and Colleagues.
Especially in such matters
as these....

Forbidden in taverns, bars and pubs....
discussions like these often
cause more angst than harmony....
due to the commitment
people have in their "beliefs".
Like all things...
these come to pass
with Time, knowledge
and a whole lot of standing Under,
which is not easy for Humans to do.

Halo Plutosquared
My apologies for causing any angst here.

but

We ARE Hippies.
I will not apologize for that...

Another "belief system " that has come to pass
in this Whirled of Information and Googledome,
where "good vibes" now come at a price.

Please do not be dismayed by the rhetoric hear...
these "serious discussions" you refer to;
have been, are and will always be
relevant to the deep concern
of the Thinking Caring Soul,
such as Your Self and those
who care enough to share
their perceptions and journey
upon this Path
we ALL walk on.

It is important to reMember
there is no one who is right or wrong
in their beliefs...
Only those who wish to impart and convert
these beliefs upon others...
whether it be by fear, dominance,
persuasion, trickery or brute force
that must be made to real eyes
beliefs are NOT truths
and truths are not Absolute.

By this I mean,
True Love and Freedom
come from
Compassion and Acceptance....
of All thoughts,
All feelings
and All actions.

There is no religion that can teach that.

------------------
When all is said and done,
more is said then done!

posted April 05, 2011 03:21 PM            

I seemed to have missed this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Chaldean, this thread was started after LEXX and I got of on a tangent on another thread... the tangent WAS ABOUT THE VIOLENCE IN THE BIBLE.

I am not just a squeaky wheel.

I think most people comment on these threads, not to have an opinion or contribute to a discussion, but rather to pose themselves in some kind of light...

---

I understand how Threads weave and often go into tangents; which is what threads and forums are all about, spiralling in all directions (hopefully upward!).

Upon reading the Topic Title, I was mistakenly
under the impression this thread
was about "Religion" not '"Violence in the Bible";
my bad, as I rarely read all the reposts, links, cut and pastes and/or visit all the Websites posted as responses by those, who would rather post others Words than comment their own. Again, my ignorant mistake and apology.

However, I apologize that you took any Words posted here as a direct assault on your character....it certainly was not my intention. Nor was it my intention to draw any inferences on your part, to speculate the intentions of any other's Words and their purpose hear.

All comments here are relevant and are worth hearing.
If not to learn, to debate or to ponder...

Then to aMuse.

That Being said....I hope the discussion will continue
as I find these posts very interesting and informative
on "Violence in the Bible"

------------------
When all is said and done,
more is said then done!

posted May 13, 2011 04:48 PM            

Shinto is like a Greek myth. there aren't any teachings and there aren't things you have to follow. it's just there as the reason the world exists. There are shrines, and one goes there to thank the deities who are just having their parties, and ask for their protection. they represent things like Greek gods represent nature, Sun, love, death, etc. etc.

fundamentally, all you got to do is to be happy that you are here, and be nice to the deities for being there. totally my style.

but seriously, it's a universal animistic worship of nature and all things existing in the world. in the mythological text, no deity is perfect, they are often cruel, insensitive, selfish and immature, just like us.

i cannot care less what others believe in, or not believe in, i don't pay attention to my "religion" at all. it never gets in my way of living, interacting with others, and conflicting with other values. it's just there, watching over me. then when i'm in difficulties, i pray and ask them for help, and i think they grumble "gee, she never even think of us but only in times like this!" and reluctantly help me out. they are good folks.

posted February 07, 2013 01:34 PM            

My son is a good example of working with doctrines. He grew up in a Pentecostal home, went to a private Baptist school and became a Lutheran minister. The Faith he has in God eradicates the lines of doctrine and enrichs his life and those he Works with. Now he is a non denominational Youth Pastor. Love and Service is the one true religion.

posted February 07, 2013 08:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by juniperb:
Religion is an odd duck. It is not religion per say I dislike but doctrines. The doctrines tells the herd what they can believe and do or not.

My son is a good example of working with doctrines. He grew up in a Pentecostal home, went to a private Baptist school and became a Lutheran minister. The Faith he has in God eradicates the lines of doctrine and enrichs his life and those he Works with. Now he is a non denominational Youth Pastor. Love and Service is the one true religion.

---

(italics are mine for emphasis)

juniperb... That's exactly where it should be, isn't it? It comes down to one-on-one 'merge' with spirit experience.

I had this dream about a decade ago--

I was at an amusement park in northern new jersey. Was standing on the wall of a ride called 'The Hell Hole' (centrifuge).

The pastor of my church was in line. He looked like Pugsly (from the Addam's Family), and his family and church members stood uniformly with him, all dressed in black trench coats and black fedora hats. They waited... and watched my group on this ride.

I was helping people. The ride was spinning more and more. The harder it spun, the less I could reach out to help. There came a moment, and I looked up.

Suddenly, it was like we were actually on the Space Shuttle, blasting off! The "g" forces pressing upon us were crushing!! Forces so great that I could barely even turn my head to look at others frozen there on the wall beside me.

A preservation instinct took over -- I realized that I could ONLY deal and do for "myself," in the moment. My body was immobilized. I had just enough concentration to breathe, to survive, every moment--, just live, just survive!

When I woke up, I realized that this was the truth for me... I felt that I had become a failure to others-- had become incapacitated because of my own trials and tribulations. It came down to only one thing: to ME-- alone. With none or little 'earthly' help. I was to be a helper of the world; the world was depending on ME to help it.

There's only so far that any doctrine-- any rules, any orders or protocols, any and ALL kinds of religions-- can take you. It's basic one-on-one, ultimately.

What a blessing that you have a son who possesses such a heart-- helping others!

Alone, I came into this world--- Alone, I shall go from it...

(Why Of COURSE!!, I have a song for that...)

Desire For Hermitage (Samuel Barber) [3:50] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=IfUVCF_oaE4&NR=1

posted February 12, 2013 09:03 AM            

quote:

---

There's only so far that any doctrine-- any rules, any orders or protocols, any and ALL kinds of religions-- can take you. It's basic one-on-one, ultimately

---

How do you deal with doctronites hammering on an agenda?

posted February 15, 2013 01:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Religion may not be for everyone, but maybe it's for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUuIE2t7W-0

---

Oh!!! I just found this post!! Sooooo funny PixieJane!!! And it's the truth!

juniperb-- ... "How do you deal with doctronites hammering on an agenda?"

To me I find sometimes that they base their whole argument on a lie (or something they didn't realize was a lie). I had one man type me a 10 page rant once... I pointed out one of his first statements 'couldn't be true'... and he saw it. We watched his ideas turn to a vapor. He was a pretty good sport about it...But it's maddening. Sometimes gotta call a time-out and back away.

The Jesus freaks in college would make sure there were at least two or three of them on me... They'd come find me--. I could make their heads spin because they used 'memorized' rehearsed scripts (with their scriptures); it was all just parked up in their heads mentally, and not digested and seen from their heart.

posted February 16, 2013 01:36 PM              

My god is better than your god. My tribe is better than your tribe. My son smarter than your son. My daughter is prettier than your daughter.

NANANANANA

When will we grow up and mature as human beings?