posted July 26, 2012 09:38 AM            

quote:

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Between Saudi and Isreal, any normal person would choose Israel with its democratic freedom.

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Yes, any normal person would.

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 26, 2012 11:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
T, I`m always the last to know

We are tested daily. Some days are a little rougher than others but in the end, It`s all good .
I let my 10 year history here speak for me .
I had one other person (Daydreamer) call me a name and it was because I was a Christian and she sincerely believed I was anti Islam. So, it is all perspective , nothing more.

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You got that right!

posted July 26, 2012 11:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Would you rather share a space with an Islamic fundamentalist or a Born Again Christian?

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Neither!! Both are chillingly closed minded, very literal in their interpretation of their individual scriptures, as well as manipulate the scriptures in order to feel a sense of superiority over others, and dogmatically pursue their beliefs to the exclusion of all reason.

Both freely use their individual scriptures as a justification of their own ego, i.e., "I'm better than you because I belong to such and such religion," or, "I'm better than you because my religion says so."

Whenever reason is very limited or absent in an individual, to me that individual is dangerous, because he/she can harm others simply by pursuing a self righteous, sanctimonious "agenda."

posted July 26, 2012 12:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Juni
You have a lot of hate in you. For someone who professes to be a Christian, it is the opposite of what you should have imho

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This quote alone has all the elements of fundamentalist thought we've been discussing on this thread--

--the psychological projection of one's own hate on another,

--the fear behind the fight or flight response simply because the other person thinks differently,

--the cover up of internal fear by accusing/judging another of something, they're not,

--the "I'm filled with love and you're filled with hate, so I'm better than you, therefore superior to you," belief

--the "I understand the scripture better, and you have it all wrong" belief

--the absolute dissonance with the actual reality of the other person (at whom the quote is directed) having exhibited zero hate in ANY WAY shape or form (actually exhibiting quite the contrary)

posted July 26, 2012 12:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
We abhor , fear or love what we are closest to. All three can create violence.

Being born and raised a Fundamentalists, I know the inner workings of many denominations. They fear God Almighty and love is left on the back burner. Like any cornered dog , the fear drives them to hate that which they do not know / understand. That hate becomes violent and the fundalmentalist is running lose in society.

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I agree with this completely because I believe that humans operate from two principle emotions--love and fear.

And the ability to discern the difference between the two is wisdom.

Everything that is not from love is from fear. And fear drives people to violence and everything that is negative or low energy.

posted July 26, 2012 12:54 PM            

She said, "I do not need to waste my energy trying to change something that is unchangeable. Something I learned from my faith ... there are NO convictions, everything is a function of time. I do not make convictions, I make opinions or values that are shaped by my experiences."

I think this a perfect rendition of Pure Truth--a thought that is in Absolute Alignment with Divinity. Almost like the most inspiring poetry in motion.

posted July 27, 2012 02:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:

The other simple fact is "Would you rather fall from the sky into Iran or Israel? Would you rather fall from the sky into Syria or Israel? Would you rather be a female in Saudi Arabia or Israel?

Would you rather share a space with an Islamic fundamentalist or a Born Again Christian?

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Ami, why do you always like to run Arabs down? you're always looking for a chance to demonize, criticize, and blame Arabs and Muslims for anything and everything. i wouldn't expect that from an otherwise spiritual, and kind individual such as yourself..

now to answer your questions:
Iran, even with it's unappreciated political stances, is eons ahead of the majority of the world whether it be in science or technology or whatever. it has one of the best universities in the world. Iranins won the film festival award for a beautiful movie called Separation. the people of Iran are smart, kind, and aware of the world. so yea i wouldn't mind falling there..

SYRIA, my dear Ami, is so culturally and historically rich just one day in Damascus would be a dream. Especially today with the killing and oppressing, to survive ONE day in Syria would teach any one of us the TRUE meaning of Patriotism. so yea i wouldn't mind to fall there..

Saudi is such a well governed state, it provides al amenities for it's citizens that a majority of them live in bliss. Income, education, and hospitalization everything is generously provided. Also culturally rich. have you spent a day in one of the tribal tents? of course not. well let me tell you they treat ppl like sultans. as for the women, don't you worry about them they are doing just fine. they are fighting for their rights and they don't need your disapproval to do it. they take matters into their own hands rather than preach empty thoughts.

where as Israel is merely a few decades old, built on the blood and tears of millions of people.. so yea no thanks.

and how can you predict that someone would rather be a Christian than a Muslim? on what grounds do you make that suggestion?

posted July 27, 2012 04:54 AM            

Well said!!

posted July 27, 2012 06:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
I agree with this completely because I believe that humans operate from two principle emotions--love and fear.

And the ability to discern the difference between the two is wisdom.

Everything that is not from love is from fear. And fear drives people to violence and everything that is negative or low energy.

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Exactly right.

Fundamentalism is bad no matter what the source, because ultimate the source is the same for all of them: fear. Only the details (i.e., specific religions) are different. The attitudes/feelings (fear, hate) are the same.

posted July 27, 2012 06:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Neither!! Both are chillingly closed minded, very literal in their interpretation of their individual scriptures, as well as manipulate the scriptures in order to feel a sense of superiority over others, and dogmatically pursue their beliefs to the exclusion of all reason.

Both freely use their individual scriptures as a justification of their own ego, i.e., "I'm better than you because I belong to such and such religion," or, "I'm better than you because my religion says so."

Whenever reason is very limited or absent in an individual, to me that individual is dangerous, because he/she can harm others simply by pursuing a self righteous, sanctimonious "agenda."

Fortunately I'm living in a free country, at least at the moment, so that I can exercise my choice to be with neither of the above quoted fundamentalists.

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posted July 27, 2012 07:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by iQ:
This thread should not be closed.
Faith , you and I are on the same page.

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I meant, in general, we are not on the same wavelength. Our thought processes are very different.

quote:

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I have lived and seen the Islamic Fundamentalists, likewise you have seen the worst of the Christian Fundamentalists. One thing though, a Christian Fundamentalist will not kill another Christian for not adhering to similar views. A Fundamentalist Muslim will kill another Muslim for choosing a different view.

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You do have a point there. I never meant to defend radical Islam, I only wanted to say that the generalization that "These are the worst human beings" was, in my opinion, not justified. I actually don't like to collectivize too much, although because most of the Christians I know ARE adamantly pro-war, my view is, as you said, shaped by that.

quote:

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You can analyze the bombings in Pakistani Mosques where minority sects are routinely massacred.

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Really? I never heard of that. See, I knew I'd learn something from talking to you.

So, research pulls this up:

Military strike against Pakastani mosque: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/paki-j11.shtml

Excerpt:

quote:

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“He is getting dollars for every student from America, Europe and others,” Badshah Rehman, whose two sons were inside the mosque, said of Pakistan’s US-backed military dictator Gen. Pervez Musharraf. “He has killed our children for dollars,” he told the Reuters news agency, while keeping vigil with other parents....

The operation involved several thousand Pakistani troops. According to some accounts, Musharraf personally directed the assault, which was led by an elite commando unit that he had previously commanded. That fighting was still going on more than 17 hours after the assault began was testimony to the tenacity of the resistance.

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There are several other incidents. As usual, it's difficult to see what really happened. In one case, it's reported that,

quote:

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A Taliban suicide squad targeted Pakistani military officers and their families praying at a mosque close to army headquarters in a gruesome display of the militants' ability to strike at the center of power in the U.S.-allied, nuclear-armed nation."

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Again, US involvement is so interwoven into the daily life of these people, it's impossible to see what the actual root of the problem is...fundamentalism, or war, politics, and occupation? And the reporting is so slop-shod and habitually dishonest, it's even harder to get a real perspective.

quote:

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Thus, there are subtle differences in these two evil breeds, and mathematically, I would always vote that the Islamist has an edge in being evil.

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It seems to defy mathematical interpretation, since you can have twisted people who haven't carried out any crimes, but there is guilt by intention. I would like to see pro-war sentiments factored into the equation, but others would probably object to that.

And I just want to pause and say that I have some Christian fundamentalist friends whom I adore, and I have also had several Muslim friends who entertained the idea of becoming more religious...and I didn't see any black clouds forming over their heads.

quote:

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ABout Iran, Iran is NOT fundamentalist today, they just have a pathetic leader.

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I was just saying, American Christians want to attack Iran. Not because the Iranians are Islamic Fundamentalists, but because the American Christians are deluded by propaganda.

quote:

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But should Americans have to suffer the Egos of Christian Fundamentalists? Should Americans have to suffer rogue Syrian Chemical attacks or rogue terrorist attacks?

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posted July 27, 2012 09:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Regardes, would you mind explaining about the types who protest funerals?

And yes I agree that terrorism does not only have the face of bombs exploding. There are more hidden forms of it that are equally as dangerous as the more obvious forms.

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posted July 27, 2012 09:11 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Sure IQ
I would love to.
The Bible can hold together on the NT and OT, totally.
The Bible never contradicts itself! All can be explained to make it one whole, unified and never erring, against other parts.

If you do want to start a thread for me, we can talk.
I love how you say your beliefs, straight out, without fear or caring for others approval.
You are one of my role models IQ

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The bible does contradict itself sometimes, like how there are two different creation stories in Genesis that are not identical. Not all of the Gospels are identical, either.

Here is a great article on that:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm/

However, as it was explained to me by a bible scholar that I know, people back then didn't have a problem with it. Some stories in the Hebrew Bible (aka Old Testament, though as one rabbi pointed out to me, to Jews, it isn't "old" and they don't call it that) were originally oral traditions, and they simply included both of them when recording the scriptures.

posted July 27, 2012 09:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
Exactly right.

Fundamentalism is bad no matter what the source, because ultimate the source is the same for all of them: fear. Only the details (i.e., specific religions) are different. The attitudes/feelings (fear, hate) are the same.

On a lighter note, since this thread is getting bad, the "love and fear" thing reminded me of this scene in "Donnie Darko":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0GdR2LlKo

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OMG! Regardes! That was hilarious! Thanks!

And yes sorely needed! But don't worry about the thread! I mean if someone dishes out then they should be prepared to take some too, ya know.

That's adulthood. Consequences and accountability for all actions. I mean if my Faith was denigrated time and time again and the same person kept getting away with it, I'd sure as heck be ticked off.

I understand your concern and slight nervousness about dissension on the thread, but put your mind at ease. iQ is also participating. And he has a very loving way to tell people off if necessary

In the long run that approach is far more effective in teaching/learning than stopping communication. At least that's what I think.

I also think that this thread is filled with a lot of terrific information and back and forth conversation. I'm certainly learning a lot!

But I do admire your conscientiousness about your responsibility! That gets my trust vote for sure.

BTW, when you get a chance would you mind explaining the funeral protests you mentioned earlier?

posted July 27, 2012 09:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
Also, the reason why I had concerns about this thread was because of personal attacks. The topic is interesting, but I hate tense conflict. Civil disagreement is one thing, but I feel very highly uncomfortable when things go too far and don't want threads to become warzones.

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posted July 27, 2012 09:34 AM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 27, 2012 09:37 AM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 27, 2012 09:37 AM            

quote:

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Also, the reason why I had concerns about this thread was because of personal attacks. The topic is interesting, but I hate tense conflict. Civil disagreement is one thing, but I feel very highly uncomfortable when things go too far and don't want threads to become warzones.

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It will happen as it is the nature of the subject . As long as no one views the attack as personal but part and parcel of this very subject, it will float by powerless.

Attacking in some form or another, is the basis of fundalmentalism and supports the threads subject and aids one in understanding the "thought" or fundamentalistic behavior behind the attacks.

Please remember verbal attacts are not personal; they speaks of the accusor not the accused.

If we remember this one thing , there is NO power in the accusation and all can move past it.

posted July 27, 2012 10:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
It will happen as it is the nature of the subject . As long as no one views the attack as personal but part and parcel of this very subject, it will float by powerless.

Attacking in some form or another, is the basis of fundalmentalism and supports the threads subject and aids one in understanding the "thought" or fundamentalistic behavior behind the attacks.

Please remember verbal attacts are not personal; they speaks of the accusor not the accused.

If we remember this one thing , there is NO power in the accusation and all can move past it.

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have been following this thread since it's inception and i think this needs to be said...again... juni, you are indeed a shining light for all of us to learn from... simply amazing...
sorry for the tangent

posted July 27, 2012 10:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
It will happen as it is the nature of the subject . As long as no one views the attack as personal but part and parcel of this very subject, it will float by powerless.

Attacking in some form or another, is the basis of fundalmentalism and supports the threads subject and aids one in understanding the "thought" or fundamentalistic behavior behind the attacks.

Please remember verbal attacts are not personal; they speaks of the accusor not the accused.

If we remember this one thing , there is NO power in the accusation and all can move past it.

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Awesome Juni!! What you've done here is present a solution to a material/physical problem, i.e., a problem in the 3D plane by accessing a spiritual solution.

The solution is inspiring because it is "in-spire", or in alignment with, or of the spirit (the way I see it ).

This lends credence to what the wise say--
"All (3D-my word) problems have a spiritual solution."

The important thing is to try and NEVER give power to anything which is not borne of LOVE.

posted July 27, 2012 11:44 AM            

Hey, I have a splendid idea [yes I'm patting myself on the back--my arms have grown disproportionately long from doing it so often ]

Anyho, the idea is this--

Why don't you start a thread on your specific Faith of Druze--in this Forum. Just put down everything you know informally and we can all learn. I'm totally interested in learning about other religions. And yours seems very interesting.

That way if anyone has questions/comments we can ask you directly. You seem knowledgeable enough about it and I really like the simple way you present it. So how 'bout it?

I posted this request in the reincarnation thread also, as I didn't know which one you were going to come back to.

posted July 27, 2012 04:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
would you mind explaining the funeral protests you mentioned earlier?

Or perhaps direct me to a link? Thanks

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WB (Westboro Baptists) are infamous, even the KKK has decried them (and there are both veteran and biker groups that sometimes create a human shield between them and funeral mourners). For years they crashed funerals of gays (including of Matthew Shepard) with signs saying they were in Hell but Christians didn't have a problem with that. Then after 9/11 they expanded to crashing the funerals of dead soldiers and thanking God for 9/11 (as they said God was punishing the USA for not living by the Bible, especially in acceptance of homosexuality, something other fundies have also said but the mainstream fundies draw the line at actually condemning the USA and dishonoring dead soldiers). Ironically, they're actually more Biblical than many Christians that have since turned against them (for example, their sign they love to flash that says, "God doesn't hate you because you're gay, you're gay because God hates you" is based on the last half of Romans 1).

That aside they seem like real life trolls, that is attention seekers rather than true believers (that they crash popular concerts, comic book conventions, and the schools of Obama's daughters seems to show a sick need for public attention, and if Obama really was the Beast they say he is then the entire church would be in Gitmo about now). Here, this is them singing a song (no, it's NOT a parody), and see if you can believe they're not just seeking to shock rather than standing up for sincere (if disgusting) religious beliefs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBV2hnPxESw

posted July 27, 2012 06:07 PM            

i feel it necessary to point out that just because people claim they are acting in the name of their god, whichever one it may be, that does not mean they are doing so. we have warped adherents to every possible belief under the sun.

we have fundamental conservatives, communists and capitalists as well as some for every religion..

to discuss these things is not to be hateful but hopefully to point out how easy it is to close one's mind and then project all evil as being outside your door.

to be afraid to discuss others' questions or arguments about your chosen path is to betray your own doubt, while admitting nowt...

posted July 27, 2012 06:15 PM            

when isabella and ferdinand drove the moors out, they promised to do the same, but within months they had put the inquisition into overdrive and jew, moslem and all but catholics were driven out entirely. my father's family among them, so this story was told me from early childhood and is corroborated by historians.

while these days the fundamentalist muslims APPEAR to be the most bloodthirsty, i have met many muslims in my life and only one would be described by anyone as anything but kind, honest, generous and cultured...

i would hesitate to agree with the description of israel as "democratic"..from what i hear it is only democratic if you are jewish. non jews tell a different story...

but one's point of view is a filter which disguises true fact more often than not.