posted July 28, 2012 05:28 AM            

It is the corollary from the texts from the scriptures that is chilling. Hopefully, I will demonstrate this logically.

posted July 28, 2012 08:49 AM            

I do not believe the books that have Jesus going to other places( not those in the Bible) getting married etc are part of the actual Bible.
Hence, I can only debate the Bible, which would be my pleasure

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 28, 2012 12:18 PM            

Thanks for the info on the Westboro group. I hadn't heard of them before now. They sound pretty unsavory.

"At the same time the fact that US Christendom HAS rebuked them shows me that they can do so and their refusal to do so at other Christian hate organizations (who are pretty much like Westboro save they don't thank God for 9/11 or dishonor fallen soldiers, and in fact silently tolerated Westboro for years when they restricted themselves to bashing gays) speaks volumes."

posted July 28, 2012 12:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
to discuss these things is not to be hateful but hopefully to point out how easy it is to close one's mind and then project all evil as being outside your door.

to be afraid to discuss others' questions or arguments about your chosen path is to betray your own doubt, while admitting nowt...

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posted July 28, 2012 05:05 PM            

And I highly recommend the movie Persepolis (actually, the autobiographical graphic novel is much better) as it shows how good people suffer terribly under Iran's oppressive regime...not that the movie is intent as political but rather shares an experience (ie, it's a memoir, not a manifesto). This is a very rare and powerful movie that makes me laugh & cry (both repeatedly) each time I watch it. By no means should it be seen as anti-Iranian propaganda, either, as it really made me sympathize Iranians who fled their government (it also made me sympathetic to the Iraqi woman killed in what appeared to be a hate crime in San Diego, too)...and it made me think of the innocents who will suffer terribly if we ever get in a war with them (and I don't want to contribute to that with my taxes at all now that the victims have a human face).

quote:

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(mother to her husband over their little girl, 13 at the time IIRC) "What? You want her to end up like him? Executed?"

(to Marjane) "You know what they do to young girls? You know what they did to Niloufar? It's illegal to kill a virgin, so a guard married her...and took her virginity first! You know what that means!?

"If they touch you, I'll kill them!"

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That said, the entire choice was kinda rigged anyway. I mean sure, as a woman I'd rather find myself in Israel than Iran, but at the same time I'd much rather appear in a place much more civilized than either like Sweden or Iceland.

And in the USA I'd rather put up with an Islamic fundie than Christian fundie because the Muslim will know to watch his step and if I'm forced to defend myself (as I might have to from either) then a jury would be much more likely to give me a pass for defending myself against a Muslim who got violent with me than a Christian. And while it's true I'd rather be the victim of Christian oppression (and even violence) in America (at least as it currently exists) than the same in Iran, it's also true that I worry much more about the Christians than the Muslims while I'm in America.

And while in general (and in these modern times) I'd rather be forced to mix with Christians than Muslims, there are exceptions to the rule even here (for example, I'd rather mix with a Muslim raised in Germany than a Christian raised in Bosnia). And in Africa I say one is equally bad as the other.

posted July 28, 2012 07:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by iQ:
I will create another thread for my research on OT and NT. I am of the view that the Bible is undistorted except for a few grammatical changes or minor changes in translation. I respect our ancient transcribers who faithfully transcribed any scripture be it Vedas, OT, NT, Zend Avestas or Quran.

It is the corollary from the texts from the scriptures that is chilling. Hopefully, I will demonstrate this logically.

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posted July 28, 2012 07:16 PM            

The story in the link you posted is pretty sad. Imagine the guilt in the son because his dad got arrested for his (the son's) facebook page.

posted July 31, 2012 03:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
as to who is worst, that tends to change with time and place. i have mentioned before, 15th century spain, mostly under islamic rule, was a place of tolerance, learning, and beauty. all religions were allowed to follow their consciences, as long as they obeyed the law of the land,

when isabella and ferdinand drove the moors out, they promised to do the same, but within months they had put the inquisition into overdrive and jew, moslem and all but catholics were driven out entirely. my father's family among them, so this story was told me from early childhood and is corroborated by historians.

while these days the fundamentalist muslims APPEAR to be the most bloodthirsty, i have met many muslims in my life and only one would be described by anyone as anything but kind, honest, generous and cultured...

i would hesitate to agree with the description of israel as "democratic"..from what i hear it is only democratic if you are jewish. non jews tell a different story...

but one's point of view is a filter which disguises true fact more often than not.

considering the number of wars and atrocities carried out in the name of religions - of all sorts - i understand completely the growth of atheism in modern times (without being an atheist myself).

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that is a very interesting post katatonic

personally i see religion....fundamentalist or not.... is something that is as good as the people who follow it

many wise people here wrote fundamentalists behave the way they do becuse of hate or fear...... but becuse of stupidity

those that hate are often do not understand other or belive in false extreme concepts that didnt require much thought from them... that defined in black and white or good and evil..eventually when you go out and MEET the people you are accusing as evil you might find your opinions are not so true or accurate....

people have much hatred towards arabs yet people who met arabs in person often do not share this view...cause they are smart enough not to see in extremes.

posted July 31, 2012 07:53 PM            

i agree 110% that religion is only as good or bad as the believer. however the very fact that it becomes an organization lends itself to corruption. and corrupt they all are to one extent or another. so, personally, i do not adhere to any religion though i find good in most of them!

however when we talk of fundamentalists we are by definition talking about people who are blind to the good in others' religions. who see the SPREADING of their own BRAND as the ultimate service and mission in life. this is basically a totalitarian outlook which i cannot support. and it leads to wars.

usually the leaders are USING religion to whip up the footsoldiers. sometimes they really believe their sales spiel. either way, fanaticism rules and causes pain, misery and usually bloodshed.

all in the name of love. go figure.

as i've said elsewhere, doomlord, my quarrel is not with most of the people who live in and love israel as their homeland. i think there are many fervent dissenters their regarding national policy.

what i object to is the fact that israel was actually created by OTHERS not for the EXPRESSED purpose of giving jews a homeland, but to have a foothold nation indebted to the ruling powers in an area that has always been rich in resources and fraught with tensions.

posted July 31, 2012 08:26 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 31, 2012 09:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
doomlord,

i agree 110% that religion is only as good or bad as the believer. however the very fact that it becomes an organization lends itself to corruption. and corrupt they all are to one extent or another. so, personally, i do not adhere to any religion though i find good in most of them!

however when we talk of fundamentalists we are by definition talking about people who are blind to the good in others' religions. who see the SPREADING of their own BRAND as the ultimate service and mission in life. this is basically a totalitarian outlook which i cannot support. and it leads to wars.

usually the leaders are USING religion to whip up the footsoldiers. sometimes they really believe their sales spiel. either way, fanaticism rules and causes pain, misery and usually bloodshed.

all in the name of love. go figure.

as i've said elsewhere, doomlord, my quarrel is not with most of the people who live in and love israel as their homeland. i think there are many fervent dissenters their regarding national policy.

what i object to is the fact that israel was actually created by OTHERS not for the EXPRESSED purpose of giving jews a homeland, but to have a foothold nation indebted to the ruling powers in an area that has always been rich in resources and fraught with tensions.

and the desire for eternal rapture in the afterlife is being more and more forcefully sold to the "faithful", giving them no reason not to want to die doing "god's will"...muslim and christian alike.

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Awesome post, Kataatonic!!

You've pretty much nailed it!

Especially this ...

"... israel was actually created by OTHERS not for the EXPRESSED purpose of giving jews a homeland, but to have a foothold nation indebted to the ruling powers in an area that has always been rich in resources and fraught with tensions."

... is just brilliant!!

Not to go off topic here ... but it is for the exact same reason that America trained guerrillas in Afghanistan ... to gain a foothold in Asia ... an area that was thought to be under the predominant powerful influence of the former USSR. Afghanistan was made a US "ally" and given money and military training. Boys as young as 4 and 5 were "trained" instead of being allowed to acquire an education.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the foothold was no longer necessary, the "ally" was no longer needed, and therefore dumped. Local Afghans who had been trained in warfare for several generations, had no other skills and no means of earning an income. The economy of the country collapsed. This was the birth of the "hate" toward the Americans and the mushrooming and spreading of Al Qaeda and other groups who've been using religious fervor and fundamentalist thought to wage their Jihad against America and its supporters.

My point? Politics is almost always self centered, and very closely tied with fundamentalist thinking ... because politics needs fundamentalist thought to justify it's waging of atrocities.

Whenever and wherever you find fundamentalist thinking, you can be sure politics is lurking around, seen or unseen.

To get back to your post Katatonic,
this ...

"and the desire for eternal rapture in the afterlife is being more and more forcefully sold to the "faithful", giving them no reason not to want to die doing "god's will"...muslim and christian alike."

posted August 05, 2012 09:15 AM            

An elderly Cherokee Native American was teaching his grandchildren about life… He said to them, “A fight is going on inside me, it is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.

One wolf is evil—he is fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, competition, superiority, and ego.

The other is good—he is joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

This same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too.” They thought about it for a minute, and then one child asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win, Grandfather?” The Elder simply replied, “The one you feed.”

posted August 05, 2012 11:21 PM            

as a grandmother i have told this story to grandson. i prefer it to the fundamentalist belief that we all have the Devil in us and only the right faith can save us from Him..

posted August 06, 2012 11:41 AM            

Yes, lets strip Micheal Phelps of his medals,
That evil bast@rd is too competitive...

Marxist fail...

Competitiveness can be the catalyst of evolution, spiritually, mentally and physically..

Morality surrounding competition is a completely separate issue...

Don't get me wrong, I like the anecdote, just not a fan of what is deemed evil in it.

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posted August 06, 2012 02:16 PM            

The priori is "I believe this, you will to, or suffer sanction imposed by the State".

What I do find fascinating is the common subjects, metaphors, and allegories in virtually every ancient writing.

posted August 06, 2012 04:10 PM            

quote:

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The priori is "I believe this, you will to, or suffer sanction imposed by the State".

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"state" as in God/ Allah / Jehovah.

quote:

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What I do find fascinating is the common subjects, metaphors, and allegories in virtually every ancient writing.

Mtns, rivers, clouds, stars, the moon, the sun, no matter the text those subjects come up as a metaphor in everything from the OT to Quoran to the Dhamma Pada.

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Yes, and that is the exact point fundalmentalists miss or outright denies. The metaphors or Mysticism present in ALL Holy Texts. Not to be taken literal but in the Spiritual vein of the Mystics.

That is why we get 10 different meanings from 10 different souls regarding or interpreting the parables of Jesus the Christ.

It is like sufism, there are at least 7 layers of meanings in their stories/parables and one interprets accordingly to their evolution in Mysticism

posted August 06, 2012 04:17 PM            

Competition in the above story is competition to subject another to your domination in the sense of ego/nafs..

Unrelated to a friendly competition of cards or a leg race ... or as you put it, a swimming race.

Like the saying goes: go ahead and stand on my shoulders if it maker you "feel" taller. Competition against another to make you feel like a bigger person feeds that hungry wolf.

posted August 06, 2012 04:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
Nice to meet you padre

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And you as well.

quote:

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Yes, and that is the exact point fundalmentalists miss or outright denies. The metaphors or [b]Mysticism present in ALL Holy Texts. Not to be taken literal but in the Spiritual vein of the Mystics.

That is why we get 10 different meanings from 10 different souls regarding or interpreting the parables of Jesus the Christ.

It is like sufism, there are at least 7 layers of meanings in their stories/parables and one interprets accordingly to their evolution in Mysticism

[/B]

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True, wouldn't that then mean that can a Divine Will be transmitted to mankind solely through the use of symbols that denote a sound in a given language?

As for the "State", disagree, the State is a fundamentalists tool to impose what they believe is the Will of the Divine whether it actually is or not is beside the point, it boils down to imposing power to bolster a worldview.

posted August 06, 2012 04:36 PM            

quote:

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And I think such an approach is generally used to promote cruelty and oppression on those who do not follow that worldview.

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And that is the crux of fundalmentalism.

quote:

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True, wouldn't that then mean that can a Divine Will be transmitted to mankind solely through the use of symbols that denote a sound in a given language?

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Yes, as a form of Mysticism as so noted in the Works of Hazrat Inayat Khan: The Mysticism of Sound and Music

posted August 06, 2012 04:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:

Competition in the above story is competition to subject another to your domination in the sense of ego/nafs..

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Well since ego and superiority are already listed, why is the elder trying to confuse the kids lol...

Yes, I'm that precocious kid who would badger that elder to clarify

posted August 06, 2012 04:47 PM            

quote:

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Well since ego and superiority are already listed, why is the elder trying to confuse the kids lol...

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Ego takes many forms including superiority. All the mentioned actions reflect the ego. We can act superior because your mother taught you that you were. Or you could do so because you felt less superior. I would guess different kinds of ego drives superiority?

quote:

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Yes, I'm that precocious kid who would badger that elder to clarify

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Oh yeah, me too

posted August 06, 2012 04:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
Yes, as a form of Mysticism as so noted in the Works of Hazrat Inayat Khan: The Mysticism of Sound and Music

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Are those word symbols, or sounds?

posted August 06, 2012 05:07 PM            

Again I'm deeply against the culling of competition, such can lead to stagnant conditions with nothing to strive for...

I'm all for fairness and humility, but humanity must always reach for the stars and beyond, least ye wallow in the mud for all eternity... Competition is often the facilitator of such -nods-

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