posted August 06, 2012 07:33 PM            

You both have given me thoughts to ponder.

posted August 06, 2012 07:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Sigh, this has been my point all along, seems you wouldn't accept that until you yourself wrote it...

Not complaining, I enjoyed the debate... but you already knew that lol

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Odd, I did not particularly see this as a debate, rather as a discussion whether or not competition leads to the uplifting of humanity in as rational a manner as we can comprehend.

An interesting Biblical competition was Elijah v Prophets of Baal, one had the Divine the other what seemed best to mankind, in Israel, at the time.

Fundamentally it would appear that it was metaphysical v metaphysical, reality was one had a message, the other were more or less apparatchiki.

The other would be the parable of the Prodigal, one took their payout earlier and wasted it, the other remained steady and had no love for anything but their duty.

In the end, the wise father restored one and taught the other that life was meant for living if one only asks to live.

Which is so totally not the Fundamentalist message, be it markets or perceived adherence scripture that has been transmitted, nay, adherence to uncreative dogma is designed to create uniformity in the Hive.

Perish the thought! What treachery that is!

posted August 06, 2012 07:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I have really enjoyed todays/tonights posts

You both have given me thoughts to ponder.

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Indeed, well thank for the opportunity to break out my tinfoil hat!

-Tips Hat-

posted August 06, 2012 07:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I have really enjoyed todays/tonights posts

You both have given me thoughts to ponder.

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Gracias, I applaud your courage for breaching such a topic, fraught with peril and deeply held beliefs, not a simple subject by any means.

posted August 06, 2012 08:49 PM            

Thinking of our lovely exchange, I was reminded of the old story of The Elephant in the Dark Room.

We each are trying to discover the whole elephant and as of yet, we each have a part.

Through exchange of understandings, we can look beyond what "we" each understand. We seek and interact with the hope of eventually seeing the whole elephant.

If you will indulge me , I will share the story as I know it from Rumis` Mathnawi

*

Six blind men study an unknown phenomenon--in this case, an elephant. Each of the six men approach the phenomenon from a different perspective and attempt to discern what it is. Each then gives his interpretation of the phenomenon, basing their interpretations exclusively on the particular part of the elephant they happened to examine.

The first blind man touched the elephant's leg and reported that the unknown phenomenon was similar to a tree trunk.

The second blind man touched the elephant's stomach and said that the elephant was like a wall.

The third blind man touched the elephant's ear and asserted that the phenomenon was precisely like a fan.

The fourth blind man touched the elephant's tail and described the elephant as a piece of rope.

The fifth blind man felt the elephant's tusks and declared the phenomenon to be a spear.

The sixth blind man touched the elephant's snout and with great fear announced the phenomenon was a snake.

The six blind men then got into a gigantic discussion

about what the unknown phenomenon really was.

May we each keep seeking the Reality of the whole elephant.!

posted August 06, 2012 11:14 PM            

Hi Lei_Kui and Padre! I don't believe I've spoken with you guys before. Nice to meet you

I wanted to add my thoughts on competition. Very simply, I think of competition as either healthy or unhealthy.

I interpret healthy competition as doing the very best I can do in whatever I take on, whether it is training and then participating in a specific sport or cooking dinner for a bunch of people.

In unhealthy competition, my self identity and self worth become attached solely to the outcome of whatever I take on. So if I do well (defined only by winning) then I feel worthy. And if I lose then I feel like I'm not worthy at all (possibly one of the worst feelings in the world--that of lack of self worth).

In healthy competition, I take into consideration how others are performing, such as in a sporting event (so I am incorporating comparison to some degree but only as a goal to be achieved). At the same time I give greater importance to my own best and try to better my own prior best. This way if I lose, I may feel very disappointed but my self esteem and self worth won't be crushed.

The best athletes imo are those who employ their "killer instincts" only as long as a race is on. The minute the race is finished, they go back to being completely humble and gracious.

In Juni's Cherokee story, I took the quality of competition listed under the "evil wolf" as unhealthy competition, ... the way I understand it. Because unhealthy competition is all about ego which, in essence, is the real root of all "evil."

Earlier in this thread I'd mentioned that I feel people operate from two principle emotions--love and fear. And that everything that is not love comes from fear.

Now I want to add that fear is the FOOD for ego. Fear is what feeds ego and helps it to grow and maintains it.

In order to get out of the ego trap, one needs to slowly put an end to all fear based thinking. When ego's "food" is cut off, it will die a much needed death and the individual can progressively move towards greater love AS WELL AS a freeing of the mind.

I see fundamentalist thought as being trapped in the mires of fear and therefore ego. And yes competition (of the unhealthy kind) is rampant in the minds of fundamentalists as is control and the other negative qualities mentioned in Juni's Cherokee story.

I think I'll stop now with an apology for the length of my post. Sometimes ... k, a lot of times I get carried away by my own thoughts.

posted August 06, 2012 11:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by juniperb:

If you will indulge me , I will share the story as I know it from Rumis` Mathnawi

*

Six blind men study an unknown phenomenon--in this case, an elephant. Each of the six men approach the phenomenon from a different perspective and attempt to discern what it is. Each then gives his interpretation of the phenomenon, basing their interpretations exclusively on the particular part of the elephant they happened to examine.

The first blind man touched the elephant's leg and reported that the unknown phenomenon was similar to a tree trunk.

The second blind man touched the elephant's stomach and said that the elephant was like a wall.

The third blind man touched the elephant's ear and asserted that the phenomenon was precisely like a fan.

The fourth blind man touched the elephant's tail and described the elephant as a piece of rope.

The fifth blind man felt the elephant's tusks and declared the phenomenon to be a spear.

The sixth blind man touched the elephant's snout and with great fear announced the phenomenon was a snake.

The six blind men then got into a gigantic discussion

about what the unknown phenomenon really was.

May we each keep seeking the Reality of the whole elephant.!

---

Juni THANK YOU for sharing this story. Just the other day I was trying to remember which part of the body each of the six men touched, and could only remember 3. This was a story my Mum told me when I was little.

posted August 07, 2012 09:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:

The best athletes imo are those who employ their "killer instincts" only as long as a race is on. The minute the race is finished, they go back to being completely humble and gracious.

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Hello Linda -nods-

Thus reminds me of the American Revolution George Washington became known as the greatest man in the world (as stated by no other than is opposition, King George III) for doing just as you said, he fought and competed with the English crown and when victory was won, he relinquished his role as General, and humbly returned to being a farmer...

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posted August 07, 2012 04:49 PM            

And just adding (I've heard of other stories like this)...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/pictures-that-will-restore-your-faith-in-humanity

quote:

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17-year-old Meghan Vogel was in last place in the 3,200-meter run when she caught up to competitor Arden McMath, whose body was giving out. Instead of running past her to avoid the last-place finish, Vogel put McMath's arm around her shoulders, carried her 30 meters, and then pushed her over the finish line before crossing it

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posted August 07, 2012 09:25 PM            

Very inspiring, thank you

posted August 08, 2012 01:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I have really enjoyed todays/tonights posts

You both have given me thoughts to ponder.

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posted August 08, 2012 04:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
Nice to meet you padre

Yes, and that is the exact point fundalmentalists miss or outright denies. The metaphors or [b]Mysticism present in ALL Holy Texts. Not to be taken literal but in the Spiritual vein of the Mystics.

That is why we get 10 different meanings from 10 different souls regarding or interpreting the parables of Jesus the Christ.

It is like sufism, there are at least 7 layers of meanings in their stories/parables and one interprets accordingly to their evolution in Mysticism

[/B]

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posted August 08, 2012 04:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
I'm more interested in the transmission of the Divine to mankind, and the various forms it can, and does take.

For example, a Cathedral will have stained glass windows depicting the various acts of Christ, these are not for decoration, they are to transmit to those who may not be able to read or what have you.

The Christian fundamentalists I've chatted with are utterly opposed to dance, however, they then ignore the examples of dance being used as worship found in the OT.

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Very interesting about the stained glass windows! I never really thought of it that way and assumed that decoration was the reason why the architects put them there. Feel free to share any articles on that, if you have any--I'd be curious to look at them and get a better look inside that mentality.

As for dance in worship, I personally don't like it. It's just not my thing. I prefer formality and structure. I also feel uncomfortable with people shouting out randomly/things like that. I'm very "smells and bells". Luckily, there are many different kinds of worship and people can usually find one that speaks to them.

posted August 08, 2012 08:34 AM            

Stained glass, stations of the cross etc, these were designed to evangelize the illiterate congragents of an earlier era.

A sortof bible worship, ie, the words of the bible becoming all important rather than the content of the message is a Reformational development.

As for dance as worship, to me that is such a personal spiritual matter that it does not bother me so to speak.

posted August 08, 2012 08:55 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
http://www.adam.rupniewski.dew.pl/mojestrony/interiapapiery/stainedglass.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Man's_Bible

Stained glass, stations of the cross etc, these were designed to evangelize the illiterate congragents of an earlier era.

A sortof bible worship, ie, the words of the bible becoming all important rather than the content of the message is a Reformational development.

As for dance as worship, to me that is such a personal spiritual matter that it does not bother me so to speak.

Have not heard of Fox's cosmic mass.

---

Here's a link on it (copyrighted, so I'm not going to repost it); you can find it here:
http://www.thecosmicmass.com/

Personally, it's not my cup of tea, as I personally do like sitting in a church with stained glass windows, being preached to, dislike singing at church (though like to hear traditional hymns when cantors/a choir perform them), and I dislike contemporary Christian music with a passion (Messiaen is about as contemporary as I get, though I did like Placido Domingo's album "Amore Infinito. I'm an ex-Catholic and have parted ways with most of the customs, having embraced those of my current denomination, but I do have to admit that I do enjoy some of their music and architecture, and I do like Latin hymns and Gregorian chant very much). I'm very formal. Incense (lots and lots and lots of it), bells, organ music, anthems/old school music, that's what I love. Just my personal taste: I'm very "high church", as we say. I am a Libra, after all.

posted August 12, 2012 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Hey, what happened to this terrific thread? I found this to be an awesomely open minded discussion of a very important topic!!

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Well, nothing happened to it per se, what I've noticed is fundamentalism, or a solid sense of principles based on sound doctrine is needed or one has no Faith at all.

However when it crushes instead of uplifts, it becomes problematic.

As for the stained glass windows and the sort of Church within a Church symbolism, I find myself enjoying it personally, sort of "for those who know".

Dislike contemporary Christian music, it lacks edge and is to poppy for my taste.

I personally believe sacred writings speak to a deeper part in us, some take different messages from them and it really depends on what sort of spirit one has, inow, one person can have a lean spirit and think them all foolishness, another person can be like a desert blossoming after a long, gentle, rain.

posted August 12, 2012 03:01 PM            

quote:

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I personally believe sacred writings speak to a deeper part in us, some take different messages from them and it really depends on what sort of spirit one has, inow, one person can have a lean spirit and think them all foolishness, another person can be like a desert blossoming after a long, gentle, rain.

Fundamenalism makes no allowance for such vagaries in the human spirit.

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Padre, you are a springtimes breath of fresh air

posted August 13, 2012 12:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
I personally believe sacred writings speak to a deeper part in us, some take different messages from them and it really depends on what sort of spirit one has, inow, one person can have a lean spirit and think them all foolishness, another person can be like a desert blossoming after a long, gentle, rain.

Fundamenalism makes no allowance for such vagaries in the human spirit.

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EXACTLY!!!!
And this is why I find fundamentalist thinking very narrow, restrictive, and limiting.

Kinda like having a harsh Mercury/Saturn aspect with someone in synastry. The Saturn person (fundamentalist) will lay down rules which, if not followed, will incur judgment. The Mercury person (non fundamentalist) will feel like he/she is being mentally strangulated and imprisoned.

posted August 13, 2012 07:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Well, nothing happened to it per se, what I've noticed is fundamentalism, or a solid sense of principles based on sound doctrine is needed or one has no Faith at all.

However when it crushes instead of uplifts, it becomes problematic.

As for the stained glass windows and the sort of Church within a Church symbolism, I find myself enjoying it personally, sort of "for those who know".

Dislike contemporary Christian music, it lacks edge and is to poppy for my taste.

I personally believe sacred writings speak to a deeper part in us, some take different messages from them and it really depends on what sort of spirit one has, inow, one person can have a lean spirit and think them all foolishness, another person can be like a desert blossoming after a long, gentle, rain.

Fundamenalism makes no allowance for such vagaries in the human spirit.

---

I agree strongly about Christian music. I can't stand most contemporary stuff. It just sounds like Barney and annoys me. It makes my ears cry. Hearing that kind of stuff makes them feel sad.

I also agree strongly with your last paragraph and last sentences.

If you don't mind me asking (sorry if you've already posted this somewhere and I missed it): what's your religion? (As in, which religion/denomination are you a member of?)

posted April 21, 2013 10:58 AM            

I remembered the inspired sharing here, Pj`s photo and the need to remember:reject the message not the messenger.

Fundamentalism was exhibited in the recent bombings. Hate for one anothers beliefs grows into this extreme form. May be all examine our hearts and rise above the petty claims to the one truth and way.

May we set the example, not be the example.

posted April 21, 2013 11:25 AM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 21, 2013 11:45 AM            

I am waiting...........................

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 21, 2013 11:46 AM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal