posted May 05, 2013 10:39 PM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:

On a more pragmatic note, from my pov, Religion, most likely Christianity, led to the building of the foundations of that standard of living.

As that is moved away from, the standard of living will slowly decline as the guiding philosophies of the majority will become amoral over time.

That amoralism will then lead to ill conceived, but popular concepts that will be implemented politically.

A sort of cause and effect if one will.

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posted May 06, 2013 12:26 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I don't believe that a rejection of religious orthodoxy (even if it meant outright atheism) would mean society became even more ego-driven than it is right now, as I see many religions fueled by ego...and also a lot of suicide (and murder) as inspired by religion, plus making people take stupid chances out of faith (like believing "God is bigger than any mugger" and then having to deal with the trauma of rape which might lead to suicide as a direct result of such a belief, and I'm sure I read of some politician's wife who had been angry at God for failing to protect her from the consequences of running a stop sign which got someone killed, IIRC...again, such ego). Oh yeah, I recently read of a guy upset that his appeal was denied for manslaughter because he drove recklessly (and tried to evade police) when he crashed into a car seriously injuring a mother and killing her child, and he thinks he should be excused because his "religious values" were offended (and thus couldn't help himself as he was in a state of rage at the time of the crash while fleeing police) when he saw 2 women kissing (playfully, not actually gay as he'd assumed).

As for suicide, that's like crime, that comes from poverty, disease, and the like, and if the countries are prospering then the rates (suicide and homicide both) will be relatively low. If not so prosperous, then the suicide rates will rise, but they'll also become more religious, too. I suspect some consciously try to make life an unnecessary veil of tears for others, "cruel to be kind," just so people embrace God before they die (after all, the church used to torture people to accept Christ before executing them, so this would be no big deal to them).

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I don't understand where you're going with that - in what way it's suppose to be related with what you quoted from my post. That has nothing to do with what I said. Here's a public definition of the term Atheism:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

There are lots of people in this world who don't see themselves as part of a religious dogma - and are not atheists (me included). The self-proclaimed atheists - whom could be acknowledged as part of the atheist dogma - don't believe in things that can't be proved trough science. It's not just about deities. They don't believe in spirituality, karma, souls - they don't believe in anything that can't be explained scientifically. Thus - they don't believe in having any purpose other than the one they make for themselves.

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As for suicide, that's like crime, that comes from poverty, disease, and the like, and if the countries are prospering then the rates (suicide and homicide both) will be relatively low. If not so prosperous, then the suicide rates will rise, but they'll also become more religious, too. I suspect some consciously try to make life an unnecessary veil of tears for others, "cruel to be kind," just so people embrace God before they die (after all, the church used to torture people to accept Christ before executing them, so this would be no big deal to them).

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You showed very little understanding and proved to have poor knowledge on this subject (Suicide). Which is actually - a good thing (the less you know - the better)... "for you" - but still, it's a delicate subject... so you either avoid it or get your facts straight. If what you say would be true - than the suicide rate would be very low or nonexistent in countries with a prosper financial system - yet, the facts prove otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

...even more than that - the countries from the bottom of the list (the ones with the lowest rates) are quite poor financially speaking. The way you put it... relating the act of suicide - mainly to poverty and disease - that's really cold, such a cold judgement. It's as if you never heard of "Romeo and Juliette (committing suicide out of love)" ...of people from prosper families committing suicide - cause this world, simply, wasn't entertaining for them anymore, of traumatized individuals (bullied kids, rape victims or victims of other forms of abuse) - who couldn't deal with their misery... individuals who lost a dear one (one with whom they had a deep connection) and so on.

posted May 06, 2013 05:09 PM            

Ok, going by those stats I withdraw the poverty line on suicide (and Japan is an interesting bit I forgot about). However, I've been exposed to too many who felt suicidal because of their Christian upbringing, from being born gay (morbidly, one gay guy who came close said he thought he deserved to die and burn eternally for being gay...) to God "letting" them be raped, too, so I don't see a belief in God as preventing suicide. Religion certainly doesn't prevent homicide (going by how many kill in the name of it as well as those who kill in spite of it), in any case. In addition to that, others who have pursued suicide are those who couldn't afford desperately needed medical treatment, too (so even if the country they were in was prospering, they were not personally).

posted May 06, 2013 05:21 PM            

I think its complete nonsense cause even if the majority will be atheists it doesent mean that people wont be allowed to have certain beliefs so any person in need of a divine source of support will have one.

posted May 07, 2013 01:30 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:

I'd also add that the dividing line, Standard of Living, is artificial to begin with because that does not take into account quality of life etc.

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posted May 09, 2013 01:51 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
^^

Ok, going by those stats I withdraw the poverty line on suicide (and Japan is an interesting bit I forgot about). However, I've been exposed to too many who felt suicidal because of their Christian upbringing, from being born gay (morbidly, one gay guy who came close said he thought he deserved to die and burn eternally for being gay...) to God "letting" them be raped, too, so I don't see a belief in God as preventing suicide. Religion certainly doesn't prevent homicide (going by how many kill in the name of it as well as those who kill in spite of it), in any case. In addition to that, others who have pursued suicide are those who couldn't afford desperately needed medical treatment, too (so even if the country they were in was prospering, they were not personally).

Still, I'm not convinced that a rise in atheism is going to lead to a rise in suicide. If anything, they have less faith to lose than everyone else. And they'll have less reason to feel rejected or hated by God, or put themselves in danger (because they believe God protects those who have faith in Him) that gets them raped which leads to suicide as they thought God should've protected them from it and either lost their faith or thought "God did it to them."

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Based on that given description - those people would have to be very limited in terms of life experience, maybe part of a religious group with strict rules (amish) - even mentally impaired to some extent (they sound as if they have the IQ of a 8 year old). If that was the case - they would suppress their nature (the mind creates blockages for such situations) and nobody would actually know about it - as it happens in groups or countries with strict rules against homosexuality. You don't have to invent stories and fictional chars. There are plenty of well documented materials on the internet related to suicide - but also psychology forums, where you can find all kind of confessions related to causes that drove people in to suicidal tendencies.

Furthermore - Atheist, does not mean Anti-Christian. It wasn't about "fanatics" of a religious dogma and fanatics of the Atheist dogma. Cause apparently, that's what you understand by Atheist: someone who doesn't believe in the Christian dogma (as - you keep giving them as example). I already explained this part in my previous post:

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Originally posted by 7thGuardian:
I don't understand where you're going with that - in what way it's suppose to be related with what you quoted from my post. That has nothing to do with what I said. Here's a public definition of the term Atheism:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

There are lots of people in this world who don't see themselves as part of a religious dogma - and are not atheists (me included). The self-proclaimed atheists - whom could be acknowledged as part of the atheist dogma - don't believe in things that can't be proved trough science. It's not just about deities. They don't believe in spirituality, karma, souls - they don't believe in anything that can't be explained scientifically. Thus - they don't believe in having any purpose other than the one they make for themselves.

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God, spiritually - are not necessarily "religion bound" - that's where most people hear about spiritual concepts, cause that's main ground of study - but spiritually doesn't exist cause of religion... it's more like - the other way around. Atheists care more about practical notions - and theories that can be proven under practical laws of the material world or even psychology. They don't believe in the existence of any kind of deities, nor do they see themselves as having a spiritual self/nature (at least in the beginning). I'm not worried about Atheists - as it's normal for some people to be Atheists to the core, they're part of the diversities of existence - the other extreme of spiritual people - and they're ok... they'll be ok. It's same with most atheists - they're Atheists till the last moments of their life or even "the last moment", they always find their belief in the end. I'm worried about those that are cut in the middle - spiritual people who need spiritual guidance trough this life. They can't live in a world that's dominated by Atheism - that would be toxic to them, they'd go aimlessly trough life - feeling lost all the time. And that will never happen, with or without religion - there will always be spiritual teachers around, to help those that are in need of their guidance. That's something that an Atheist finds it hard to understand - as spirituality is not logical to them (they see it more as being "psychological").

posted May 09, 2013 02:08 PM            

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Originally posted by 7thGuardian:
God, spiritually - are not necessarily "religion bound" - that's where most people hear about spiritual concepts, cause that's main ground of study - but spiritually doesn't exist cause of religion... it's more like - the other way around. Atheists care more about practical notions - and theories that can be proven under practical laws of the material world or even psychology. They don't believe in the existence of any kind of deities, nor do they see themselves as having a spiritual self/nature (at least in the beginning). I'm not worried about Atheists - as it's normal for some people to be Atheists to the core, they're part of the diversities of existence - the other extreme of spiritual people - and they're ok... they'll be ok. It's same with most atheists - they're Atheists till the last moments of their life or even "the last moment", they always find their belief in the end. I'm worried about those that are cut in the middle - spiritual people who need spiritual guidance trough this life. They can't live in a world that's dominated by Atheism - that would be toxic to them, they'd go aimlessly trough life - feeling lost all the time. And that will never happen, with or without religion - there will always be spiritual teachers around, to help those that are in need of their guidance. That's something that an Atheist finds it hard to understand - as spirituality is not logical to them (they see it more as being "psychological").

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Im sorry but it sounds like you are saying that a world with a majority of atheists will be a world where atheism will be forced on the spiritual and they would suffer.

posted May 09, 2013 02:10 PM            

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Originally posted by doommlord:
Im sorry but it sounds like you are saying that a world with a majority of atheists will be a world where atheism will be forced on the spiritual and they would suffer.

I do not believe it is true since most atheists are actually known for being tolerant towards religious people and i doubt if it will change shouk the majority be atheists (not talking zbout that most normal countries do not have a state religion and so allow freedom of spirituality without putting to much light on the subject)

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Really? So the communist regimes around the globe that suppressed religion were of course displaying "tolerance"?

posted May 09, 2013 02:14 PM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Really? So the communist regimes around the globe that suppressed religion were of course displaying "tolerance"?

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Did i refer to communism?

I talked about a society in which the majority of people are athesist and if you cant imagine a that a world like that cant happen willingly and can only be the result of totalitarian rule its your own problem.

posted May 09, 2013 05:05 PM            

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Originally posted by doommlord:
Did i refer to communism?

I talked about a society in which the majority of people are athesist and if you cant imagine a that a world like that cant happen willingly and can only be the result of totalitarian rule its your own problem.

I do NOT refer to any political ideology and please do not try to connect me to one.

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I've had this conversation before, even on LL. Here, to save time, this will sum up what is likely to come next:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0sftrzOQ_Y

posted May 10, 2013 01:31 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I've had this conversation before, even on LL. Here, to save time, this will sum up what is likely to come next:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0sftrzOQ_Y

(Btw, hope you get what was said about the banana.)

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posted May 10, 2013 06:15 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I've had this conversation before, even on LL. Here, to save time, this will sum up what is likely to come next:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0sftrzOQ_Y

(Btw, hope you get what was said about the banana.)

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Pixie Jane, you are a genius and a comedy RIOT!!!!

banana??
OMG?? I think this would have made a great comedic 'stand-up' routine... BUT it's scary because he seems to completely be serious about this! What happened?

Reminds me of a person who has had a stroke? or like the opposite of epilepsy with too 'concentrated' in narrow area rather than marching across hemipheres of the brain?

BUT sad thing is--->> he isn't aware of it!? And maybe the people around him got 'tranced' because of how much sense and yet nonsense that all made?

posted May 10, 2013 06:17 PM            

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:

"There will be peace when the lion gobbles up the lamb.

That is not the peace I want."

~ Abbie Hoffman

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Abbie Hoffman was an interesting individual...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman

posted May 10, 2013 06:53 PM            

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Originally posted by mirage29:
What worries me is when atheists in psychology and psychiatry write the books from their own POV about religious spiritual experiences.... Ones who are not capable of discerning spiritual things will term this experience as pathological? If not pathological to the individual, then maybe to society as a whole? If seen as a "threat" to status quo, they could be "forced" into having their Awareness and "Consciousness" neutered?

By the year 2038,.... will it be considered 'pathology' to express believe in God, or to have mystical (or natural altered states of consciousness without drugs [ASCs])?

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posted May 11, 2013 12:46 PM            

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Is the loss of religious belief something fear? Contrary to the claims of religious leaders, Godless countries are highly moral nations with an unusual level of social trust, economic equality, low crime and a high level of civic engagement (5). We could do with some of that.

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Atheism is the best thing to happen for Spirituality. Atheism helps rid the brain of the mental illness called Fundamentalist Religion, whose only exploit has been the Mass Death of non-believers. Once the mental illness is deleted, the Mind is ready to look at new data, observe more and slowly understand the Cosmic Design in All That Is. This paves the way for Kundalini Flow and the reward of "Knowing"/Gnosis of God and One's Own Soul as Connected to God.

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