posted December 09, 2013 09:04 PM            

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A spokesman for the New York-headquartered Satanic Temple, Lucien Greaves, confirmed for Al Jazeera Sunday that an Oklahoma-based temple affiliate hopes – with the permission of the Oklahoma Capitol Preservation Commission – to build a monument to Satan that will also act as “an object of play for children.”

Greaves said it is against the temple’s principle to build monuments to its faith, and that the act is, in the tradition of the literary Satan portrayed by John Milton in "Paradise Lost," a “rebellion against arbitrary authority.”

The temple would never have attempted to build its proposed monument, Greaves said, if it weren't for the Ten Commandments memorial, which the Republican-majority state legislature approved in 2009.

He said the prospective monument’s purpose “is not just to get people to acknowledge Satanism. It’s to represent the maligned minority (and show) we can all be represented. They’ve opened the door and set a legal precedent by which one can have religious monuments outside the capitol building like that.”

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Greaves told Al Jazeera the temple will become incorporated early next year, at which point it plans to conduct gay weddings in states where they are illegal and challenge local laws on the grounds that they violate religious freedom. Women seeking abortions where they must, by law, first receive ultrasounds will be encouraged to reject the procedure, saying that it breaks with their Satanist faith.

When the temple is incorporated, Greaves says, it will pay taxes.

“We think religions should pay taxes and give back to the general community.”

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I think this Temple would get along well with Discordians.

Reminds me of a case about 5-7 years ago, IIRC, where a church group challenged the separation of church & state in schools saying by prohibiting any promotion of religion the state was therefore championing atheism and that the promotion of Christianity was but free speech. They won their case in courts (for that one state) and instantly took advantage of it to pass out fliers in school for their church events but then the Unitarians and pagans did the same and the fundies who won freaked out saying that was a promotion of paganism and had to be stopped. So much for free speech, and IIRC they themselves pushed to return the school to the status quo that prohibited all promotion of religion.

But then I've always thought the majority of the people who want the 10 commandments posted everywhere should worry less about that and worry more about living up to those commandments themselves which the majority of them do not.

Finally, I thought I'd point out this comment as I figured Faith might want to see it:

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Gary Vey:
I find it a bit ironic. YHWH is a tribal deity who gave the 10 commandments and is derived from the pre-Sumerian deity "E-A" (Yah) who is the origin of Lucifer (according to Freemason traditional teachings). So why would Satanists object to the 10 commandments? Ignorance of history perhaps?

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posted December 10, 2013 06:35 AM            

It will be interesting to see what exactly they construct as a monument... :O

Also you posted:

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Gary Vey:
I find it a bit ironic. YHWH is a tribal deity who gave the 10 commandments and is derived from the pre-Sumerian deity "E-A" (Yah) who is the origin of Lucifer

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I dont think that is correct at all.. YHWH is more an an amalgam of several pre-Hebrew traditions/myths... and yes up to and including elements of EA... but not solely EA

From the Sumerian version of the flood, Enki/EA who disagreed with his brother Enlil’s command to destroy all humans found a way to warn Utnapistim/Ziusudra.

Yet in the Hebrew version there is only one deity fulfilling the roles of both destroyer and savior!

While I agree that Lucifer may have origins in the character of EA... I do not see any reason to assume that this character is responsible, or would even support the 10 commandments.

If anything he would be against them

posted December 10, 2013 03:43 PM            

I shared that for Faith because IIRC she has an interest in the various views of Satan and also secret societies. I personally don't know what Freemasons teach, nor do I know if Mr. Vey there posted accurate Freemason teachings or what yet another Christian bearing false witness said about what Freemasons believe.

My favorite book that examined a lot of the origins of the Bible and 10 commandments was When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone, though it's been 13 years since I read it and can't recall much in detail now. I do recall that the 10 commandments were found and had been created by followers of a full moon god of judgment (I believe the name of the god was Sin, which is ironic)...assuming I'm recalling the right book.

But in the end there are as many beliefs about Satan as there is God. Some incorporate them both like I've known Thelemite leaning occultists who believed God & Satan were essentially 2 sides of the same coin (and one had to master the good & evil within and without to become whole) and would call on angels & demons equally and even plenty of Pentecostals believe demons must obey Jesus (though it gets much weirder than that). Some also believe that Satan is with God, a prosecutor for Heaven (based on Job 1 and two & Zech 3) and plenty also can't ignore how the Bible has repeatedly said God is the author of the evil as well as the good (and see God command evil spirits in I Kings 22) and that affects how they see Satan, and I've personally met a guy who worships both God & Satan as presented in the Bible (though he was one twisted bugger...).

And then there are those (especially Gnostics) who believe God is a tyrant and Satan the heroic liberator and even point out that the Serpent never lied in the Garden of Eve but God did (where it seems God spoke truth is only because He imposed it, and hence a tyrant). Though I'm sure it's meant only as metaphorical that seems to be the particular version of Satan this Temple in Oklahoma is embracing.

posted December 10, 2013 03:57 PM            

Therefore this meme made me laugh:

But I thought I'd throw this in, too:

...And the MORTALS! I ask you--WHY? Tell me THAT--WHY?

Why do they blame ME for all THEIR little failings? They use MY NAME as if I spend my entire days sitting on their shoulders forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive.

"The Devil Made Me Do It." I have never made one of them do anything. NEVER. They live their own lives. I do not live their lives for them.

And then they DIE and they come here (having transgressed against what they believed to be right), and expect us to fulfill their desire for pain and retribution. I don't MAKE them come here.

They talk of me going around and buying souls, like a fishwife come market day, never stopped to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And HOW can anyone OWN a soul?

No. They belong to themselves. They just HATE to face up to it.

--Lucifer in Neil Gaiman's Seasons of Mist

posted December 10, 2013 04:47 PM            

Unless I started playing devil's advocate... but the irony of that situation is just too much

Yea, I'm familiar with the Charlie Daniels song, its on my playlist somewhere

posted December 11, 2013 09:01 PM            

It's somehow comforting to know the so called Satanists are as clueless and splintered a group as the rest.

posted December 11, 2013 10:49 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
It's somehow comforting to know the so called Satanists are as clueless and splintered a group as the rest.

"There is no unity in evil"

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If that's the case then the entire human race is evil.

But just to be clear Satanists like these don't preach evil. If they did then they wouldn't be open about it and they wouldn't challenge the authorities on something so trivial (from an evil person's perspective). Instead, they'd be claiming to be good Christians while bilking the gullible or entering politics themselves, or possibly engaging in activities that they would want to keep hidden (and thus not pull publicity stunts like this that draw attention to themselves). That is to say the Oklahoma politicians promoting Christian values are much more likely to be evil (*), maybe even Lawful Evil (though being politicians & fundies I'm betting they lie too much for that), than the Temple of Satan.

posted December 11, 2013 11:04 PM            

His family is, but he claims that he isnt...

I dont think Xenu would hand over the secrets to a non believer

posted December 12, 2013 12:43 PM            

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Gaiman is a Scientologist?

His family is, but he claims that he isnt...

I dont think Xenu would hand over the secrets to a non believer

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He's been seen at so many Sci fundraisers and the Celebrity Center and so forth, I don't believe him.

posted December 12, 2013 12:52 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
If that's the case then the entire human race is evil.

But just to be clear Satanists like these don't preach evil. If they did then they wouldn't be open about it and they wouldn't challenge the authorities on something so trivial (from an evil person's perspective). Instead, they'd be claiming to be good Christians while bilking the gullible or entering politics themselves, or possibly engaging in activities that they would want to keep hidden (and thus not pull publicity stunts like this that draw attention to themselves). That is to say the Oklahoma politicians promoting Christian values are much more likely to be evil (*), maybe even Lawful Evil (though being politicians & fundies I'm betting they lie too much for that), than the Temple of Satan.

(*I'm defining evil as getting ahead by the willful harming and exploitation of innocents, something a great many people thumping a Bible or preaching self-sacrifice do, though only the worst take actual enjoyment in it. The vast majority of people are mostly selfish but not truly evil, though neither are they truly good.)

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posted December 12, 2013 06:53 PM            

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I don't define evil as a human personality flaw or psychological disturbance.

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Could you elaborate please on the cause of evil from your perspective?

posted December 12, 2013 07:48 PM            

I hadn't realized they used the Christian mythos at all. I thought they used aliens from other worlds and dimensions with weird names. And I thought they also taught that humanity was fallen that only they could fix (for a big fee which is why they go after the rich who can afford their "services") which would not be in accordance with what Gaiman had Lucifer say (so to speak).

In case it saves time I'll point out that I won't believe what any fundamentalist Christian has to say about it. They lie so much I automatically disbelieve anything they say about what others believe. And not "misunderstand," I mean LIE to the point they're either psychotic or willfully deceitful, no other option. Therefore posting a link from a fundie Christian site won't be appreciated (and when I did a quick google search that's what they all seemed to be and I didn't even click on them, I have too many years of experience to waste any more of my time with people of such a bad reputation they've created for themselves).

posted December 12, 2013 08:02 PM            

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Could you elaborate please on the cause of evil from your perspective?

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Lei, the cause of psychological disturbances? Or are we diving headfirst into the "what's the purpose of evil" debate?

posted December 12, 2013 08:19 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Btw, what do Scientologists teach about Satan?

I hadn't realized they used the Christian mythos at all. I thought they used aliens from other worlds and dimensions with weird names. And I thought they also taught that humanity was fallen that only they could fix (for a big fee which is why they go after the rich who can afford their "services") which would not be in accordance with what Gaiman had Lucifer say (so to speak).

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Thetans, yes. Nasty little buggers, eh? I believe Faith has some knowledge of Scientology if you're interested in these things.

My Xenu comment intended to draw a comparison between the silliness of Sci religious doctrine and Gaiman's rant. Admittedly, the rant was fictional, therefore it would be unfair to attribute "Lucifer's" whinging to Gaiman's own belief. But, again, a lighthearted thread.

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In case it saves time I'll point out that I won't believe what any fundamentalist Christian has to say about it. They lie so much I automatically disbelieve anything they say about what others believe. And not "misunderstand," I mean LIE to the point they're either psychotic or willfully deceitful, no other option. Therefore posting a link from a fundie Christian site won't be appreciated (and when I did a quick google search that's what they all seemed to be and I didn't even click on them, I have too many years of experience to waste any more of my time with people of such a bad reputation they've created for themselves).

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Is there a fundie link here? I missed it. I haven't had much experience with the fundamentalist crowd. My sympathies if you have.

posted December 12, 2013 11:28 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
Is there a fundie link here? I missed it. I haven't had much experience with the fundamentalist crowd. My sympathies if you have.

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The only thing to do with fundies so far are the Oklahoma legislature that the Temple of Satan is protesting. As I said, "To save time" which mean don't bother posting such a link in the first place (at least not for my benefit as I'd instantly dismiss it). I did a google search and it all looked like fundie drivel (probably because the CoS doesn't actually speak of Satan) so in case anyone else thought to try such a search I wanted them to know in advance I wouldn't care for it and hopefully could skip that to "save time."

posted December 12, 2013 11:50 PM            

People going there in search of pain/pleasure

posted December 13, 2013 10:12 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
[B] The only thing to do with fundies so far are the Oklahoma legislature that the Temple of Satan is protesting. As I said, "To save time" which mean don't bother posting such a link in the first place (at least not for my benefit as I'd instantly dismiss it). I did a google search and it all looked like fundie drivel (probably because the CoS doesn't actually speak of Satan) so in case anyone else thought to try such a search I wanted them to know in advance I wouldn't care for it and hopefully could skip that to "save time."

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hmm. Pixie, I can't imagine why you would suspect I'd post a link to a Christian Fundamentalist site. I honestly don't know of any offhand, as I'm not as interested in the subject as you and others on this forum appear to be. Fundamentalism rarely if ever comes on my radar. I simply don't travel in those circles. Well, apart from LL. There's plenty of fundie talk here ironically enough

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And btw, I see nothing silly about what I shared from Gaiman (certainly less silly than what the Oklahoma legislature believes), nor do I see it as a rant. It was more Lucifer reflecting in a graphic novel/comic and I copied the all-caps as presented in the comic (to show emphasis, tone, etc) and perhaps I shouldn't have transferred the all-caps as it's too easy to "get lost in translation" between a comic and a message board.

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yk, I didn't notice the all caps. It was strictly the subject matter that inspired a laugh.

posted September 15, 2014 08:24 PM            

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The Satanic Temple took advantage of this decision, deciding to flood Orange County schools with a pamphlet entitled The Satanic Children’s Big Book of Activities that contains kid-friendly Satanic lessons.

“These bullies are mad and afraid of things they don’t understand,” the instructions on the word-jumble reads. “Help Damian use inclusive language to defuse the situation."

The spokesman for the Satanic Temple, Lucien Greaves, explained that his organization “would never seek to establish a precedent of disseminating our religious materials in public schools because we believe our constitutional values are better served by respecting a strong separation of Church and State.”

“However,” he continued, “if a public school board is going to allow religious pamphlets and full Bibles to be distributed to students — as is the case in Orange County, Florida — we think the responsible thing to do is to ensure that these students are given access to a variety of differing religious opinions, as opposed to standing idly by while one religious voice dominates the discourse and delivers propaganda to youth.”

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posted September 16, 2014 12:19 AM            

That aside, here's more on what's going on at this specific school and how it came to this if anyone is interested:
htt p://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/09/15/thanks-to-christians-wanting-to-distribute-bibles-orange-county-fl-schools-will-soon-give-away-satanist-literature/