posted February 23, 2015 05:36 AM              

So how is that dissimilar from positive manifestation spells?

posted February 24, 2015 01:38 PM              

A spell, on the other hand, is similar to a decree. The spell caster is supposed to feel positive certainty about the outcome. Perhaps the sense of certainty imbues the thoughts with power - something that may be missing from the prayer version.

posted February 25, 2015 03:16 AM            

Magic and spells use a variety of methods, and some really blur the line with prayer. One type is generally known as "invoking" which is sort of like channeling a divine force, a force that exists both inside each of us and yet transcends us and is thus a divinity ("evoking" is more commanding a spirit to manifest or appear for some magical work though I never heard of anyone attempting that with a god). Prayers can certainly be very similar...ironically, the Pentecostals who seem the most phobic to magic are prone to practices that resemble them the most, even if they believe the authority is in Jesus Christ they tend to "command" things (including miracles) to happen and to expect it (and that's before you get into the "speaking in tongues" and other aspects--I've always wanted someone to do an experiment playing with a Ouija Board in such a church where that happens all the time, preferably while Pentecostals are flopping around with the Holy Spirit in them, though that would be asking for real trouble, I think most death by exorcisms in the 20th century, including on unwilling victims, have been done by Pentecostals).

posted February 25, 2015 03:26 AM            

Long story short he got tricked to go with some Pentecostals who then (after something else) took him to their church where members were speaking on tongues and even dropping to the floor. Several surrounded him trying to fill him with the Holy Spirit so he wondered what he should say to get them to back off. I don't recall whether he thought it was funny or more just the first thing to come into his mind but he started tossing out Lovecraftian phrases like, "Ia! Ia Shub-Niggurath!

The Pentecostals were pleased with one telling him, "I can feel the Holy Spirit in you, brother!"

posted February 25, 2015 03:40 AM            

I believe that my mind is the reason why.

Quick story: when I was 5 I woke up late in the morning scared to wake up my hung over parents to feed me out of fear of their violence (last time I tried Dad hit me so hard that my feet came off the floor and I didn't fall until I bounced off the wall first). So I pondered what to do in the kitchen and finally placed a chair before the cereal cabinet. I was still too small to reach it so I got a spatula which I used to open the cabinet. But unable to pry out cereal I then got a wooden spoon. I then pried out the cheerios catching it in my arms. The rest was easy and as I ate a warm feeling filled me of "I can do it myself!" And though the world of adults was scary to me, I feared fires from Dad falling asleep (passing out drunk more like it) with a lit cigarette in hand and their random violence and plenty of other chaos, I knew I could take care of myself but that the adults were untrustworthy. And my life continued to follow that pattern.

When I met Freya (and I believe my granny praying for me to Jesus contributed to that experience, FYI) She even "told" me to grow up and stand on my own feet rather than seeking to be eternal children trying to crawl back into the womb as people of so many other religions do. And I believe a large part of why I got that message was because it was the attitude I needed to survive as a runaway on the streets filled with hostile adults, yet at the same time it was also the message I could understand the easiest and goes back to the Cheerios incident.

Therefore, prayer doesn't work for me because that's asking a parental like figure to take care of me, and in my mind that does not happen. Back to the Cheerios: asking Mom was useless, asking Dad was dangerous, and it did not produce results. However, "I can do it myself!" That is SPELLS where I did it myself can work...and creativity is important because it was important in how I got the Cheerios! (Having a packed 5H might have something to do with that as well.)

Put another way, had my parents been loving and giving who took care of me then I think prayer would work very well for me today. Had at the time I tried to make my own breakfast not wanting to disturb them only to hurt myself falling off the chair then spells probably would not work for me today.

posted February 25, 2015 09:09 AM              

How interesting that the kind of person you are makes particular manifestation tools more effective. It does make sense. If you don't feel able to command and decree or feel that is inappropriate, then prayers are the way to go. In your case, you were made to realise which was your way, and asking for help was certainly not it.

The Pentecostals, as you said, seem to have merged the two ways. As to whether prayers can be made more effective by using invocations and commands, it seems one simply has to try and see what works.

posted April 11, 2015 06:05 PM            

As we've shared before, you remember I have my own experiences with 'lower'-understanding un-conscious church-folk? There are some of 'those' in every kind of belief-system (religious or political) ~~ western as well as eastern traditions.

(I had a good post prepared here, but then messed my paragraphs up! arrgh! There was no way to save 'my rich mess' without first posting prematurely, then going back in to edit. I know that upsets some people... So!, I'll have to manifest writing software!)

Here's an URL from my 'almost-posted' material...

It's the yearly catholic church ritual of blessing the Fires, then marking and blessing the new Candle they're going to use for the Church's New Year. Some mainline protestant religions perform a similar ritual.

Astro keen, note the similarity when the priest 'marks' and anoints this candle.

posted April 13, 2015 12:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:
What's the difference
between a prayer and a spell?
One will ask,
and one will tell.

---

posted April 28, 2015 04:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Midnight for me so I'm not at my sharpest here.

Magic and spells use a variety of methods, and some really blur the line with prayer....

Prayers can certainly be very similar...ironically, the Pentecostals who seem the most phobic to magic are prone to practices that resemble them the most...

and that's before you get into the "speaking in tongues" and other aspects --I've always wanted someone to do an experiment playing with a Ouija Board in such a church where that happens all the time, preferably while Pentecostals are flopping around with the Holy Spirit in them, though that would be asking for real trouble, I think most death by exorcisms in the 20th century, including on unwilling victims, have been done by Pentecostals).

Shamanism and the like can be very similar, manifesting traits that are channeled for magical work yet done so in a prayerful like way or otherwise bargaining with the spirits and using mind altering techniques....

---

This is a really good point, PixieJane.

The lines are oh so blurry with the [literal) holy rollers-

I've seen this before, and it wasn't confined to speaking in

tongues.. it included the 'gift' of laughter (useless giggling

with the inability to speak), running up and down the aisles

hollering 'WooHoo!', in the middle of the service, effectively

shutting down any kind of constructive message (which is the idea,

imo).. among other things.

And really, with no interpreter (as there should be), the speaker

could be cursing the entire assembly, while everyone in attendance

is standing in agreement.

But it makes for one hell of a show. :/

Scripture is very clear on the matter, though- and it looks nothing

like the above behavior:

If therefore the whole church be come together

into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there

come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will

they not say that ye are mad?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth

not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all...

1 COR 14:23-24

--

The churches are not immune to infiltration and corruption,

and the results can be just awful.

And while the gifts of the holy spirit are authentic, indeed... :

"Let all things be done unto edifying...

that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to

the prophets.

For God is not the author of confusion--"

1 COR 14:26,31-33

...

*edit: corrected code (omg)

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Nothing is permanent in this wicked world; not even our troubles.

posted May 13, 2015 10:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:

---

------------------
Nothing is permanent in this wicked world; not even our troubles.

posted May 16, 2015 01:45 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astro keen:
Now that we're clear about the difference, could I ask for suggestions for spells that have worked. What about a general one for health and happiness.

---

You don't need a spell for that.

Aside from what you usually hear (e.g. eat right,

exercise), much of it is about your perception.

Pay attention to what you put into (allow into)

your mind; garbage in, garbage out.

My opinion, of course.

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Nothing is permanent in this wicked world; not even our troubles.

posted May 16, 2015 04:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astro keen:
Now that we're clear about the difference, could I ask for suggestions for spells that have worked. What about a general one for health and happiness.

---

There are different ways to cast a spell (from ritual to hedgecraft, traditional to creative) and the kind you're best suited for should be used.

As a general rule, you should be fairly specific as vague spells tend not to go anywhere (and also be advised that they often "follow the path of least resistance" and for that reason it's best to do whatever you can mundanely to help it come about). For happiness, what makes you happy? Note, not "what is SUPPOSED to make me happy" but "what ACTUALLY makes me happy." Then it's pursuing that...or changing what's making you unhappy (including life choices like career or some such).

Also, we humans aren't meant to be happy all the time. To make a long story short the longer someone is happy the less rewarding it becomes and the more any disappointment hurts, and the less a body learns (though obviously being sad most of the time is bad for someone, too), and unhappiness is often a sign that something needs to change (maybe it's unreasonable and/or impossible, or maybe it's telling you something that's inconvenient to hear and would rather anesthetize it in false feelings of happiness). And those who are constantly happy can be diagnosed with a type of "mania" which can be as dangerous as depression.

But be advised that trying to get rid of people using magic tends to bind them to you unintentionally so that even if that person does leave or change significantly some action of theirs will continue to haunt your life. (I point this out as many people think their life would be better and happier if they could get rid of someone in it or at least bind their nature or remove them as competition, whatever.)

posted May 16, 2015 09:41 AM              

This is so interesting. It allows the existence of layers of supernatural energies which operate outside the realm of God. Aren't the things that confer harsh justice subject to the same karmic laws?

Certainly, directing spells towards another person would be entrapping oneself in complex karmic retribution - a thing to be avoided at all costs.

posted May 16, 2015 04:46 PM            

That is to say Justice isn't real, it's simply a "computer program" of the astral world in which all of us feed into and can magically tap and direct (though it's so powerful now that if you jump into that current you're likely to get swept away by it...though I expect a sufficiently powerful and skilled occultist could "hack" it to gain incredible control but that strikes me as a very dangerous ledge to walk).

I see astrology working the same way. Astrology isn't objectively real and I doubt it would work for people born outside the solar system or even Gaiasphere (at least until enough humans left) but rather it's our belief that feeds into a collective unconscious that is then reflected back at us (in essence, it's a spell in which no one has to use magic anymore, it's now working on automatic)...and that includes the power of Saturn and Pluto, btw. (That is to say if enough people feared the dark so that our moon was called Phobos then the moon would affect what we're afraid of and when we're afraid rather than our general emotions, for example. Or if Cancer the Crab were instead envisioned as Sally the Swan thousands of years ago that those who are born with Cancer influences today would instead have Sally the Swan influences which would change the energy they're born with and have to deal with.)

Put another way there is no singular intelligent or conscious force behind these Archetypes, but rather the subconscious of our species, and we affect them, and they in turn affect us in a circle.

As for casting spells on others to send them away, it's not that some force punishes you for it, it's that by doing so you create a psychic connection (even if that connection is meant to somehow suppress or deflect the other person) and all connections become mutual (or the connection and thus spell fails). Think of "plugging yourself in" to the other person, your current goes there but their current comes right back at you, at least in moments of weakness on your part.

Likewise, the reason cursing (speaking of the usual kind while spirit evocation, shaping of elementals, and other esoteric occult activities are a bit different--though not completely so) is dangerous isn't because some entity is going to spank you for it but because such occult attacks typically come from a place of weakness (even desperation) which means the person enters into magic with the ingrained belief that the victim of his or her spell already has power over the spellcaster which taints the entire process and in many cases the spellcaster also has a conscience that allows guilt in which adds to the danger of cursing.

Now if the target of a curse happens to be weaker than the spellcaster the curse can still work without tangible backlash to the caster, but if this were the case then the spellcaster probably wouldn't have come to be in a place where cursing seemed necessary. This is why those who go this path (and last doing it) learn ways to ritually cleanse themselves and "raise their vibration" at least for the duration of the casting the spell and/or use ways to deflect the backlash...but as a general rule, if your magic goes up against an aura that resists you (which is often the default unless permission is given, though there are sneaky ways to "get a subconscious invite/permission") then the magic rebounds with all its original strength AND the strength of the aura it "bounced back" from (and is sometimes summed up as "get back three times what you send out" since it's going to come back a bit more than twice as strong).

posted May 16, 2015 05:09 PM            

And I'd get bonus points for "activating the poppet" (finishing with some ritual of charging) at a time of a good "natal chart" (especially one that someone compliments my own transit wise).

But that's because my "magical orientation" is based on creativity. Others would benefit more from say lighting colored candles in a row while reading the first 8 Psalms (which they'd see as poetry, but I read of some psychic protection ritual that used that) while the appropriate incense burned (and also based on the specific hour and such since each hour corresponds to a planet) or many other ways that magic works for different people.

posted May 17, 2015 12:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Btw, interesting note...I knew a witch who kept casting money spells which worked but then she'd lose it (for example, she cast one, got over $200, and then had to immediately take her cat to the vet with the bill coming to what she gained almost to the penny)...

---

I still see that as successful.

Instead of viewing negatively -- 'the money I won was taken'

Why not view positively?

'I got exactly what I needed... almost to the penny... and

right when I needed it'

I see the difference: no control, really, but still...

it *was* a gain.

That just reminded of my ex-hub (not to imply that your

friend is anything like this, though).

He got money from a relative for a birthday or holiday,

which was nice, because due to his massive expenditures,

we were going to be late on some important bill.. it was

probably the electric.

But he said he didn't want to waste (an adult; according

to age, anyway) his gift money on bills.

I pointed out that getting the money he needed to pay

that bill *was* a gift... how fortunate.

He didn't see it that way, of course.

The marriage was short-lived. :/

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Nothing is permanent in this wicked world; not even our troubles.