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Author Topic:   The Islamic position on ISIS (al-khawarij), and groups like them
venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no Islamic position except that which is supported by Qur'an and Sahih (authentic) Hadith. Islamic scholars are no good at writing sensational articles, but for anyone who is genuinely interested in the Islamic position here it is.

The first generation of Muslims (7th century) were warned of people like ISIS in their time, and in the last days. These people are called al-khawarij. I'm sharing this article by Abu Amina Elias, because the Islamic tradition of scholarship is to support every religious opinion with Qur'an and authentic Hadith, and he does a thorough job of this.

By Abu Amina Elias:

The most dangerous sect in Islam are the Kharijites (al-khawarij). They have existed since the very early period of Islam and they will continue to cause strife in the Muslim nation until the end of time when they will join forces with the False Messiah (dajjal). We must be aware of their ideology and characteristics in order to protect ourselves from unwittingly supporting their destructive behavior.

The Kharijites earned their name (from the root kh-ra-ja meaning “to go out”) because they exited Islam and the Muslim community due to their heretical innovations. They will recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats, meaning it will not enter their hearts and they will not understand it.

Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudri reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

There will come a people from the east who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion just as an arrow pierces its target and they will not return to it just as the arrow does not return to the bow.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 7123, Grade: Sahih
---

The Kharijite ideology is based upon the following evil tenets:

1.Declaring Muslims to be unbelievers.
2.Rejecting lawful obedience to the rulers.
3.Justifying violence against Muslims and innocent people.

The correct Islamic belief is that no Muslim can become an unbeliever due to his sins alone.


Imam At-Tahawi states:

We do not excommunicate anyone who prays toward Mecca because of their sins as long as he does not consider them lawful, and we do not say sins do not harm the faith of those who commit them.

Source: Aqeedah At-Tahawi
---

A Muslim must explicitly disavow Islam in order to be properly considered an unbeliever.

Imam At-Tahawi states:

A person does not leave faith except by disavowing what brought him into it.

Source: Aqeedah At-Tahawi
---

In contrast, the Kharijites charge other Muslims with unbelief due to their sins or perceived sins in order to justify their merciless and criminal behavior towards them.

Ibn Taymiyyah writes:

The Kharijite sect was the first to declare Muslims to be unbelievers because of their sins. They charged as unbelievers whoever disagreed with their innovations and they made lawful the spilling of blood and the taking of wealth. This is the condition of the people of innovation, that they invent some religious innovation and then they excommunicate whoever disagrees with them concerning it. Rather, the people of the Sunnah and the community follow the Book and the Sunnah and they obey Allah and His Messenger and follow the truth. They have mercy upon the creation.

Source: Majmu’ Al-Fatawa 1/278
---

True Muslims have mercy upon the entire creation, including unbelievers and idolaters, but the Kharaijites have no mercy for those outside their group. They declare other Muslims to be unbelievers by misinterpreting and misapplying the verses of the Quran.

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 08:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
(feel free to skip this comment. It's difficult to understand without knowledge of Islamic history)

Al-Bukhari reported: Ibn Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, considered the Kharijites to be the worst of Allah’s creation and he said:

Indeed, they take verses that were revealed about unbelievers and use them against the believers.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 6531, Grade: Sahih


In the early period of Islam, they declared Ali ibn Abi Talib to be an unbeliever when he intended to reconcile with Mu’awiyah.

Ubaidullah ibn Abu Rafi reported: The Kharijites came out against Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, and they said:

There is no rule but for Allah. (12:40)

Ali said:

A word of truth by which is intended falsehood.

Source: Sahih Muslim 1066, Grade: Sahih
---

The original Kharijites misused the verse “there is no rule but for Allah,” (12:40) by not properly distinguishing between matters upon which Allah has definitively ruled and matters left open to interpretation, consultation, and human decision-making. Ali ibn Abi Talib decisively refuted them with the Quran.

Ibn Hajar reported: The Kharijites indicted Ali and they said:

You have replaced the authority Allah has given you and the name with which He named you. Then, you judged with the judgment of men in the religion of Allah while ‘there is no rule but for Allah.’ (12:40)

When Ali heard this, he gathered the people and he called for the greatest scripture (mushaf) and he started striking it with his hand and saying:

O you scripture, speak to the people!

They said, “It is not a person. It is only ink and paper. We are speaking about what is narrated from it.” Ali said:

The Book of Allah is between myself and these people. Allah said regarding the woman and man: If you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people… (4:35), and the nation of Muhammad is greater than the affair of a woman and a man. They have taken vengeance upon me because I have written to Mu’awiyah and yet the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, had written to Suhail ibn Amr and: You certainly have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example. (33:21)

Source: Fath ul-Bari from Sunan Al-Bayhaqi 16230, Grade: Sahih

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Kharijites believe their opinions regarding leadership, government, politics, and the Sharia are the only valid opinions in Islam and whoever disagrees with them becomes an unbeliever. However, the truth is that much of these matters are left open to interpretation and consultation among the Muslims.

In fact, the Prophet commanded us to distinguish between the rule of Allah and the rule of people and not to claim our opinions are the rulings of Allah.

Buraida reported: When the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, would appoint a commander over the army, he would personally enjoin him to fear Allah and to be good with the Muslims who were with him. The Prophet would say:

When you besiege the people of a fortress and they appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not give them protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet but rather give them protection in the name of you and your companions. Verily, for you to violate the protection of yourself and your companions is a lesser sin than to violate the protection of Allah and His Messenger. When you besiege the people of a fortress and they appeal for you to bring them out according to the rule of Allah, do not bring them our according to the rule of Allah but rather bring them out according to your ruling. Verily, you do not know if you will judge with the ruling of Allah concerning them or not.

Source: Sahih Muslim 1731, Grade: Sahih
---

Thus, Muslims must distinguish between the rule of Allah and the rule of people. Yet the Kharijites, who make no such distinction, will charge other Muslims with unbelief who disagree with their views. In fact, the Kharijites do not simply declare Muslims to be unbelievers in a theoretical way, but rather they call for violent rebellion against entire Muslim societies.

Regarding Muslim rulers, the correct Islamic belief is that we must obey them in all lawful matters. We should only disobey them if they command us to commit sins and we may not call for a violent overthrow of their governments as long as they allow the prayer.

Umm Salamah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

There will be rulers from whom you will see both goodness and corruption. One who recognizes their evil and hates it will maintain his innocence, but one who is pleased with it and follows them will be sinful.

It was said, “Shall we not fight them?” The Prophet said:

No, as long as they pray.

Source: Sahih Muslim 1854, Grade: Sahih
---

As long as Muslims are allowed to pray and practice the pillars of Islam, then there is no justification for declaring a rebellion against the rulers. In contrast, the Kharijites rebel against the ruler not to protect the religion, but rather for inexcusable worldly reasons.

Abu Hayyan reported: A man from the Kharijites came to Hasan Al-Basri and he said, “What do you say about the rebels?” Hasan said:

They are seekers of the world.

He said, “Why do you say that when one of them goes out with his spear until it breaks and he leaves his family and children?” Hasan said:

Tell me about the ruler. Does he prevent you from establishing prayer, giving charity, and performing the pilgrimage?

He said no. Hasan said:

As I see it, he has only prevented you from seeking the world and you have fought him for it.

Source: Al-Basa’ir wal Dhakha’ir 1/34
---

In general, Muslims must work to reform societies through non-violent methods such as teaching, preaching, and charity. Violence is only a last resort in the worst case. The Kharijites, on the other hand, charge Muslim leaders with unbelief and anyone else who does not support their call for violent rebellion. In this way, they justify indiscriminate violence against entire Muslim societies.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

Whoever rejects obedience to the leader and divides the community and dies will have died upon ignorance. Whoever fights under the banner of one who is blind, raging for the sake of tribalism, or calling to tribalism, or supporting tribalism, and is killed will have died upon ignorance. Whoever rebels against my nation, striking the righteous and wicked alike and sparing not even the believers and does not fulfill the pledge of security, then he has nothing to do with me and I have nothing to do with him.

Source: Sahih Muslim 1848, Grade: Sahih

This narration succinctly describes the characteristics of the Kharijites and their violent behavior. They reject lawful obedience to Muslim leaders and they fight according to their tribal zeal, meaning they are not concerned with justice for their victims. They attack both the righteous and the wicked, and they do not honor covenants of security and the protection of civilians.

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll edit out the Arabic script that's not translating shortly

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

In our times, you will see them target markets, bus stations, airports, and other places frequented by unarmed civilians. The purpose of such attacks is not to achieve any immediate military objectives, but rather to spread terror among the population and destabilize the government. In this way, they follow the same path as the first Kharijites in the early period of Islam.

At-Tabari reported:

The Khawarij came to a village and they seized a man and his daughter. She said to them, “O people of Islam! Indeed, my father is an old man so do not kill him, and I am only a girl. By Allah, I have never been immoral and I have never harmed anyone.” They brought her to kill her and she kept saying, “What is my sin? What is my sin?” Then she fainted and they killed her with their swords.

Source: Tareekh At-Tabari 1512
---

Ibn Kathir writes:


If the Khawarij ever gained power, they would corrupt the entire earth, Iraq, and Syria. They would not leave a boy or a girl or a man or a woman, for in their view the people have become so corrupt that they cannot be reformed except by mass killing.

Source: Al-Bidayah wa Nihayah 10/584
---

Wherever they appear, the Kharijites cause division among the Muslims at large and even among their own groups. Whenever they form a group, it is not long before splinter groups and off-shoots appear with each one claiming to have the right to seize the Caliphate.

Wahb ibn Munabbih said:

I knew the early period of Islam. By Allah, the Kharijites never had a group except that Allah caused it to split due to their evil condition. Never did one of them proclaim his opinion except that Allah caused his neck to be struck. Never did the Muslim nation unite upon a man from the Kharijites. If Allah had allowed the opinion of the Kharijites to take root, the earth would have been corrupted, the roadways would have been cut off, the Hajj pilgrimage to the sacred house of Allah would have been cut off, and the affair of Islam would have returned to ignorance until the people would seek refuge in the mountains as they had done in the time of ignorance. If there were to arise among them ten or twenty men, there would not be a man among them except that he would claim the Caliphate for himself. With each man among them would be ten thousand others, all of them fighting each other and charging each other with unbelief until even the believer would fear for himself, his religion, his life, his family, his wealth, and he would not know where to travel or with whom he should be.

Source: Ta’reekh Dimshaq 69290

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nevertheless, the Kharijites have been successful recruiting ignorant or desperate Muslims. The Prophet described them as using beautiful Islamic rhetoric and selling “foolish dreams” to the Muslim masses.

Ali ibn Abu Talib reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

In the last days, there will be young people with foolish dreams. They will say the best of words in creation but they will pass through Islam just as an arrow passes through its game. Their faith will not go beyond their throats.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 4770, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi
---
Their “foolish dreams” are their promises of an Islamic Utopia, a glorious jihad, a new Caliphate that will bring honor and strength back to the Muslims. Yet, their dreams are unrealistic and their methodologies dangerous to the very people they claim to be helping. Their understanding of faith is so shallow, superficial, and hypocritical that they cause even greater harm to Muslim community.

In another narration, the Prophet described them saying:

There will be dissension and division in my nation and a people will come with beautiful words but evil deeds. They recite the Quran but it will not pass beyond their throats. They will leave the religion as an arrow leaves its target and they will not return until the arrows returns to its notch. They are the worst of the creation.

Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 4765, Grade: Sahih
---
Indeed, like their predecessors their preaching and propaganda entices people to join their cause but by their actions they are the worst of the creation, even though they recite the Quran and call to Islam. They bring forth verses of the Quran to bolster their arguments but they wield them against the objectives of Islam.

Usama ibn Zaid reported: Sa’d, may Allah be pleased with him, said:

By Allah, I would never kill a Muslim as this one had killed him.

A man said to him:

Did not Allah say: Fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is entirely for Allah? (2:193)

Sa'd said:

We did fight them until there was no more persecution, but you and your companions intend to fight until there is persecution.

Source: Sahih Muslim 96, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi
---

Sa’eed ibn Jubair reported: We were met by Abdullah ibn Umar and we hoped that he would narrate to us a good saying. A man approached him and he said, “O Abu Abdur Rahman, tell us about fighting during times of persecution as Allah said: And fight until there is no more persecution.” (2:193) Ibn Umar said:

Do you know what persecution is? May your mother be bereaved of you! Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, only fought the idolaters as there was persecution for practicing their religion. It was not like your fighting for the sake of ruling.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 6682, Grade: Sahih
---

The purpose of a just war in Islam is to end religious persecution and to protect innocent people, yet the Kharijites use such verses to further persecute Muslims and to justify their worldly ambitions of political power.

We will continue to see the violent call of the Kharijites appear again and again until the end of time when the False Messiah appears among them. They follow the same Satanic forces from which will emerge the greatest tribulation and suffering ever faced by humanity.

Abdullah ibn Amr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

There will emerge from the east some people from my nation who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. Every time a faction of them emerges it will be cut off.

The Prophet repeated this and on the tenth time he said:

Every time a faction of them emerges it will be cut off until the False Messiah emerges from their remnants.

Source: Musnad Ahmad 27767, Grade: Sahih
---

As such, in our times we are witnessing a number of conflicts between oppressive governments and rebel Kharijite forces. Muslims are stuck between the spear of the ruler and the sword of the rebel. In such cases, we must remain patient and work to reform and improve our communities through education, preaching, and charity.

Abdullah ibn Amr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

There will be a tribulation that will wipe out the Arabs in which those killed on both sides are in the Hellfire. In that time the tongue will be stronger than the sword.

Source: Musnad Ahmad 6941, Grade: Sahih

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If we are not careful, we might fall into the sins of either side of the conflict by legitimizing the misdeeds of an oppressive government or justifying acts of terrorism in response. We should not rush to support one or another side in such conflicts as they are tribulations (fitnah) in which the truth is unclear.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

There will be tribulations during which a sitting person will be better than the one standing. The one standing will be better than the one walking. The one walking will be better than the one running. Whoever exposes himself to these tribulations will be destroyed, so whoever finds a place of protection or refuge should take shelter in it.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 6670, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi
---
Rather, we must be patient, resist calls for violence, and avoid getting involved in these conflicts. If we are patient, it will not be long before Allah will give us a way out. But if we call for violence, then Allah will heap more violence upon us.

Hasan Al-Basri, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

If the people had patience when they are being tested by their unjust ruler, it will not be long before Allah will give them a way out. However, they always rush to their swords, so they are left with their swords. By Allah, not even for a single day did they bring about any good.

Source: Tabaqat Al-Kubra 8789
---

Shaytan (Satan) intends to use the alluring call of the Kharijites as a means to drag us into the Hellfire. We have to resist them by upholding the true teachings of Islam: mercy with the creation, patience with hardship, justice with our enemies. The Kharijites intend to impress us by their outward displays of faith, but inwardly they have no faith. Only by understanding true Islam in both its inward and outward teachings can we protect ourselves, our children, and our communities from their dangerous ideology.

Success comes from Allah, and Allah knows best.

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 17, 2016 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe this belongs in the religious sub-forum. I'm not sure.

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juniperb
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posted April 18, 2016 07:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Venus2, I believe it does go in Divine Diversities so moving it along.

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Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.

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anekksadh
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posted April 18, 2016 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for anekksadh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
in the past 2 years ever since neptune was transiting my piscean sun i started believing in many conspiracy theories which i find to be the actual truth

i stopped watching CNN/BBC which are controlled by the western capitalists

according to me and my understanding this ISIS is a puppet organisation created by the western capitalists, a creation of the zionists which consists of CIA/mossad (israel secret service) and saudi arabian intelligence,

western capitalists believe in creating instability in the middle east to put their foot in, without instability they cannot give reasons to their public to attack other countries,

al qaeda/isis/boko haram are all indirect creations of the zionists,

notice one thing, wherever there is oil, there are terrorists

nigeria has massive oil reserves in its country and near its coast, many western companies are located in nigeria for their oil, SHELL is one of them, so in nigeria u have boko haram- the islamic militant organization which has been terrorizing many sections of nigeria, killing and abducting people

sudan has uranian and thorium deposits and u had al qaeda influence there for many years,

middle east is full of oil, saudi arabia is the best friend of western capitalists as the west buys most of its oil,
saudi arabia is a sunni nation ( one of the sect in islam)

whereas syria/iran are shiite nations ( another sect in islam)

saudi arabia along with the western zionists wants to spread its version of wahabbi islam across the arab world and around the world, it does this indirectly through this fanaticism of terrorist organizations like al qaeda and isis

saudi arabia hates iran and syria because they dont follow the saudi version of sunni islam, yemen/oman/kuwait/uae/qatar/bahrain all are sunni nations

the west hates iran and syria because both these countries are friendly with russia and dont bow down to western capitalism and run their central banks which are not connected to the western capitalists and sell their oil in a currency different from the dollar,

this entire hype of islamic terrorism is a hype created by CNN/BBC/western mainstream media

ask yourself, why does russia/china/saudi arabia/iran put severe restrictions of foreign media channels/reporters and western media in their country

BECAUSE they know how this western media is capable of screwing their nation by spreading false news like wild fire, they will interview a few protesters and portray the entire country is dissatisfied with the government, they are biased and follow the agenda given to them by their authorities

if u blow up a bomb in a european country, it creates a feeling of revenge and the public supports going to war and sending military action to a nation like syria

the terrorists who killed people in paris recently, one of the terrorists apparently left his syrian passport at one of the scene

R U SERIOUS ??? if u r a terrorist and u go on a mission to kill people ARE YOU GONNA CARRY YOUR freaking passport with you ???
is that so important ?

the media gives u news and u believe in it without questioning it, thats what most people do

islamic terrorism is used as a tool by the zionists to be involved in the affairs of middle east nations who have oil reserves,

if the middle east had no oil, there would not have been these terrorists organizations and the middle east would have been like some african nation or one of the least developed south american nations

qatar wants to build a pipeline to europe to supply its gas, but syria comes in its way,

iran wants to build a pipeline to europe through its friendly nation syria,

so what is the solution for the western zionists ?

create ISIS and show their beheading videos ( common practice in sunni version of islam )
and make the world feel that something needs to be done to finish these fanatics, so lets go to war and make the bankers richer and ecnomies unstable ( which again benefits the bankers )

the world is controlled by banks, not governments

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anekksadh
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posted April 18, 2016 08:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for anekksadh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
venus2tinkerbell

are you a follower of islam ? which part of the world are you from ?

Anekk

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Faith
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posted April 18, 2016 01:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with you anekk.

Venus, thanks for all the information.

quote:
Shaytan (Satan) intends to use the alluring call of the Kharijites as a means to drag us into the Hellfire. We have to resist them by upholding the true teachings of Islam: mercy with the creation, patience with hardship, justice with our enemies.

Do you believe in hell?

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 19, 2016 01:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anekksadh:
venus2tinkerbell

are you a follower of islam ? which part of the world are you from ?

Anekk


Hi Anekk,

Yes, I'm an American born Muslim. I see what you see Anekk. Many people I know see what you see.

This article is really for Muslims. I decided that when I post on this website about Islam I will post strictly from the Islamic perspective that is supported by Qur'an and Hadith, because really we take no position except that it is supported by Qur'an and Hadith.

I could argue what should be obvious to people, but it does nothing to teach the truth about Islam. It's just my opinion verses someone else's opinion, and I have neither the time nor the patience for debates. For me it's about the truth of what Islam teaches verses the propaganda war machine. I like this site. This is my astrology Ummah (family). I'm going through a Saturn transit and I feel a responsibility to speak.

From the Islamic perspective, oppressive governments are not new or news. What has the potential to confuse Muslims and draw them away from the path are al-khawajid who in one breathe say they are for Muslims, while their wicked actions only cause the persecution of Muslims, if they are not killing Muslims themselves. Muhammad (saw) knew this generation of Muslims would be facing these tribulations so his warning was not of what would be obvious to us, but of what would be a little harder to understand.

Muslims are stuck between the spear of the ruler and the sword of the rebel

Thanks for your comment. It was really clear and well written, and again, I agree.

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 19, 2016 02:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

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Faith
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posted April 19, 2016 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks v2t,

It makes sense because as it matches the beliefs I've always been around.

It doesn't make sense to me in the grand scheme of things (ie, why would a loving God punish people so hard?)...but that's a whole other matter.

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anekksadh
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posted April 19, 2016 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for anekksadh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
Hi Anekk,

Yes, I'm an American born Muslim. I see what you see Anekk. Many people I know see what you see.

This article is really for Muslims. I decided that when I post on this website about Islam I will post strictly from the Islamic perspective that is supported by Qur'an and Hadith, because really we take no position except that it is supported by Qur'an and Hadith.

I could argue what should be obvious to people, but it does nothing to teach the truth about Islam. It's just my opinion verses someone else's opinion, and I have neither the time nor the patience for debates. For me it's about the truth of what Islam teaches verses the propaganda war machine. I like this site. This is my astrology Ummah (family). I'm going through a Saturn transit and I feel a responsibility to speak.

From the Islamic perspective, oppressive governments are not new or news. What has the potential to confuse Muslims and draw them away from the path are al-khawajid who in one breathe say they are for Muslims, while their wicked actions only cause the persecution of Muslims, if they are not killing Muslims themselves. Muhammad (saw) knew this generation of Muslims would be facing these tribulations so his warning was not of what would be obvious to us, but of what would be a little harder to understand.

Muslims are stuck between the spear of the ruler and the sword of the rebel

Thanks for your comment. It was really clear and well written, and again, I agree.


yesterday i came across videos of imran hossein who is a speaker on political issues/worldwide issues and most importantly islamic issues and religion

he is quite eloquent and learned and has good knowledge of a variety of subjects in this modern world

i think a lot of what he was saying matches things which you have said, many similar words he used again and again which i think matched the points you pointed out, i was curious to listen to more of his videos as he seemed to be talking the real philosophy of islam

Anekk

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venus2tinkerbell
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posted April 19, 2016 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Anekk. I will look him up.

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venus2tinkerbell
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Posts: 2099
From: the baseball hall of fame
Registered: Nov 2014

posted April 19, 2016 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus2tinkerbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
Thanks v2t,

It makes sense because as it matches the beliefs I've always been around.

It doesn't make sense to me in the grand scheme of things (ie, why would a loving God punish people so hard?)...but that's a whole other matter.


edited.

Well the burning that I was talking about doesn't really have to do with God casting us into hell. It has more to do with the condition of the heart and the choices we make with our "free will" that affect it's condition in this life...and its not about anyone else's judgement of us, but of what we know of ourselves- our hidden secrets...but these aren't things I can cover in a single post. This is my mother's teacher's favorite topic, which he has discussed over 40 years. So Ill leave it. You should get some interesting feedback on the thread you started.

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 70080
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 22, 2016 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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mirage29
Knowflake

Posts: 6086
From: us
Registered: May 2012

posted September 22, 2016 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
edited.

Well the burning that I was talking about doesn't really have to do with God casting us into hell. It has more to do with the condition of the heart and the choices we make with our "free will" that affect its condition in this life...and it's not about anyone else's judgement of us, but of what we know of ourselves- our hidden secrets...but these aren't things I can cover in a single post.

This is my mother's teacher's favorite topic, which he has discussed over 40 years. So I'll leave it. You should get some interesting feedback on the thread you started.


Well said.

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